djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 14:30:11 GMT -5
Let's go like Norway, free health, free education, short work hours, you will pay a little more in taxes. only about $100,000 per household.
Want a car? The taxes on that car can run 100% over the cost of the car. That free college, They determine if you get the degree you want, ever wonder why you have so many foreign student here, where it cost for an education. Innovation? what is the last innovative product that you have seen come out of Norway??
innovation: sciencenordic.com/norway-more-innovative-previously-suggested
educational choice in Norway: what are you talking about? I have never heard that before.
car taxes: it is true that car taxes are high. they are also proportional to vehicle weight. this is to reduce the cost of road repairs and increase fuel efficiency, and lower pollution. so, yes, if you have a monster truck, you will pay 100%. if you own a nice little two seater, significantly less.
effective tax rates in Norway are about 50%. in the US it is about 30%, then we pay 20% for our healthcare. because....FREEDOM (to enrich corporations)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 14:35:29 GMT -5
Let's go like Norway, free health, free education, short work hours, you will pay a little more in taxes. only about $100,000 per household.
Want a car? The taxes on that car can run 100% over the cost of the car. That free college, They determine if you get the degree you want, ever wonder why you have so many foreign student here, where it cost for an education. Innovation? what is the last innovative product that you have seen come out of Norway??
innovation: sciencenordic.com/norway-more-innovative-previously-suggested
educational choice in Norway: what are you talking about? I have never heard that before.
car taxes: it is true that car taxes are high. they are also proportional to vehicle weight. this is to reduce the cost of road repairs and increase fuel efficiency, and lower pollution. so, yes, if you have a monster truck, you will pay 100%. if you own a nice little two seater, significantly less.
effective tax rates in Norway are about 50%. in the US it is about 30%, then we pay 20% for our healthcare. because....FREEDOM (to enrich corporations)
Healthcare, childcare, eldercare, university education........Americans end up paying more out of pocket. Much more.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 14:59:56 GMT -5
You really don’t have any experience with teaching hospitals do you? You’d prefer a dr who has been doing tbe same thing the same way for 40 years?When DH was diagnosed with cancer, we went to the UW for a second test/ diagnosis. It was state of the art. The dr asked if it was OK for one medical student to observe. Well, if ednkris wants a large open gash from stem to stern, as opposed to minimally invasive keyhole cardiac surgery.....let him. i get what your saying. Just because i wouldn't go to a teaching hospital does not mean i don't want new technology. I just don't want to be the guinea pig. BTW i would prefer no cardiac surgery but if needed i would want a DR who has done several. No dougie howsers for me
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 15:04:12 GMT -5
innovation: sciencenordic.com/norway-more-innovative-previously-suggested
educational choice in Norway: what are you talking about? I have never heard that before.
car taxes: it is true that car taxes are high. they are also proportional to vehicle weight. this is to reduce the cost of road repairs and increase fuel efficiency, and lower pollution. so, yes, if you have a monster truck, you will pay 100%. if you own a nice little two seater, significantly less.
effective tax rates in Norway are about 50%. in the US it is about 30%, then we pay 20% for our healthcare. because....FREEDOM (to enrich corporations)
Healthcare, childcare, eldercare, university education........Americans end up paying more out of pocket. Much more. The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. Childless couples or elderly kids grown up, people who don't want a university education etc. So no not everyone pays more. That is the whole point
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 15:04:48 GMT -5
Well, if ednkris wants a large open gash from stem to stern, as opposed to minimally invasive keyhole cardiac surgery.....let him. i get what your saying. Just because i wouldn't go to a teaching hospital does not mean i don't want new technology. I just don't want to be the guinea pig. BTW i would prefer no cardiac surgery but if needed i would want a DR who has done several. No dougie howsers for me Fine. Don't go to a teaching hospital. No skin off my nose. That being said, don't expect too much new technology or innovation at a non-teaching hospital.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 15:06:50 GMT -5
Healthcare, childcare, eldercare, university education........Americans end up paying more out of pocket. Much more. The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. Childless couples or elderly kids grown up, people who don't want a university education etc. So no not everyone pays more. That is the whole point These things benefit the entire community, and the entire country. Oh, but you're a conservative. It's all about "me, me me!"
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 15:11:00 GMT -5
The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. Childless couples or elderly kids grown up, people who don't want a university education etc. So no not everyone pays more. That is the whole point These things benefit the entire community, and the entire country. Oh, but you're a conservative. It's all about "me, me me!" The benefit comes with a cost. No one should be forced to do pay for someone else. The key word here is forced. It's always the benefit of the community yada yada. Is it thou? Alot of people want to go about their lives minding their own business taking care of their family not having to foot the bill for someone else.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 15:11:30 GMT -5
Healthcare, childcare, eldercare, university education........Americans end up paying more out of pocket. Much more. The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 2, 2019 15:16:15 GMT -5
Well, if ednkris wants a large open gash from stem to stern, as opposed to minimally invasive keyhole cardiac surgery.....let him. i get what your saying. Just because i wouldn't go to a teaching hospital does not mean i don't want new technology. I just don't want to be the guinea pig. BTW i would prefer no cardiac surgery but if needed i would want a DR who has done several. No dougie howsers for me Well, you are lucky you have that choice. I live in a city of 200K, and we have two hospitals that handle all of the maternity needs for the city.
Given a choice between a homebirth, or birth in the car (I was very close with my third kiddo)....I'd prefer to give birth in a teaching hospital.
I also find the older I get, the younger young people look. The problem is me aging and my response to it. Not the fact that there are *gasp* young people in this world.
But, given the choice..I'd prefer a younger graduate tending to my birth than a 75 year old man who might have old fashioned ideas about the birthing process.
My health is not one area that I'm going to behave like an old person...shaking my fist and saying "You young hooligans...get off my lawn." (And note, at age 43, I did actually say such a thing.)
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 15:23:49 GMT -5
These things benefit the entire community, and the entire country. Oh, but you're a conservative. It's all about "me, me me!" The benefit comes with a cost. No one should be forced to do pay for someone else. The key word here is forced. It's always the benefit of the community yada yada. Is it thou? Alot of people want to go about their lives minding their own business taking care of their family not having to foot the bill for someone else. So you don't want to pay for the military, police, firefighters, infrastructure, sewer systems, road repairs, libraries, clean water, garbage pickup, food safety inspections, etc.? After all, you could put out your own fires, burn your trash, not use the roads, dig your own well, and only eat what you hunt.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 2, 2019 15:26:39 GMT -5
i get what your saying. Just because i wouldn't go to a teaching hospital does not mean i don't want new technology. I just don't want to be the guinea pig. BTW i would prefer no cardiac surgery but if needed i would want a DR who has done several. No dougie howsers for me Well, you are lucky you have that choice. I live in a city of 200K, and we have two hospitals that handle all of the maternity needs for the city.
Given a choice between a homebirth, or birth in the car (I was very close with my third kiddo)....I'd prefer to give birth in a teaching hospital.
I also find the older I get, the younger young people look. The problem is me aging and my response to it. Not the fact that there are *gasp* young people in this world.
But, given the choice..I'd prefer a younger graduate tending to my birth than a 75 year old man who might have old fashioned ideas about the birthing process.
My health is not one area that I'm going to behave like an old person...shaking my fist and saying "You young hooligans...get off my lawn." (And note, at age 43, I did actually say such a thing.) My dad had that argument with my grandmother. She tried to refuse state of the art brain surgery on my grandfather because she didn't want some young whippersnapper doing it. Said whippersnapper was top of his class and is one of the best. But he was young therefore just HAD to be stupid and inexperienced. My dad won fortunately.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 15:28:28 GMT -5
The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 15:31:18 GMT -5
I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong Well, that's one way of looking at it, from a very selfish perspective. "Why should I pay for your healthcare? Just crawl into the woods and die! I've got mine!!"
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 2, 2019 15:31:34 GMT -5
These things benefit the entire community, and the entire country. Oh, but you're a conservative. It's all about "me, me me!" The benefit comes with a cost. No one should be forced to do pay for someone else. The key word here is forced. It's always the benefit of the community yada yada. Is it thou? Alot of people want to go about their lives minding their own business taking care of their family not having to foot the bill for someone else. Yeah, handicapped people should just beg on the streets like they do in 3rd world countries. Orphans and the mentally ill should just be sent to poorhouses. No one should have to pay for the inspectors who make sure the milk YOUR kids drink is safe or the hamburgers they eat at McD’s has been properly cooked.. No one should have to pay for the schools and universities YOUR kids attend. (Ignoring the fact that everyone benefits from an educated workforce) No one should have to pay for the roads YOU drive on..... And, of course, you never use the public library...
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Aug 2, 2019 15:32:17 GMT -5
Healthcare, childcare, eldercare, university education........Americans end up paying more out of pocket. Much more. The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. Childless couples or elderly kids grown up, people who don't want a university education etc. So no not everyone pays more. That is the whole point Maybe, just maybe the fact that someone chose to not have children will not stop them from eventually needing a docor/dentist/etc. who actually does have a university education comes into play here . So yes, (university and all other) education does benefit even those without children or whose children are now grown. Of course we could also go the Soylent Green route but I don't really consider that an attractive alternative.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 15:46:46 GMT -5
The problem is why should everyone have to pay the higher tax if they don't have the above services. Childless couples or elderly kids grown up, people who don't want a university education etc. So no not everyone pays more. That is the whole point Maybe, just maybe the fact that someone chose to not have children will not stop them from eventually needing a docor/dentist/etc. who actually does have a university education comes into play here . So yes, (university and all other) education does benefit even those without children or whose children are now grown. Of course we could also go the Soylent Green route but I don't really consider that an attractive alternative. soylent green crazy move wasn't that Steve Mcqueen? The Dr. and the universities should be paid for by the person attending. I'm not saying there can't be services for children that needs medical help or food, but somewhere along the line has to be drawn.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Aug 2, 2019 15:49:34 GMT -5
I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong I mean, you total want to be dealing with things like measles again? And polio. How cool would it be for all those childhood diseases to come back again? And think if Rubella comes back...it can cause miscarriage..who cares...right if Joe's disease causes Betty to miscarry...or Sally gets it and ends up blind.
Do you have any kids? If you did, what did you teach them about things like STDs? Oh, honey, no...you catch it..you keep it mummsies, because you have no responsibility to tell any future partners. HPV is bunk...cancer, smancer. Right? Or, if you have kids, did you counsel them to never be sexually active, even in marriage.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 15:55:48 GMT -5
The benefit comes with a cost. No one should be forced to do pay for someone else. The key word here is forced. It's always the benefit of the community yada yada. Is it thou? Alot of people want to go about their lives minding their own business taking care of their family not having to foot the bill for someone else. Yeah, handicapped people should just beg on the streets like they do in 3rd world countries. Orphans and the mentally ill should just be sent to poorhouses. No one should have to pay for the inspectors who make sure the milk YOUR kids drink is safe or the hamburgers they eat at McD’s has been properly cooked.. No one should have to pay for the schools and universities YOUR kids attend. (Ignoring the fact that everyone benefits from an educated workforce) No one should have to pay for the roads YOU drive on..... And, of course, you never use the public library... Most of what you listed we already have i'm not saying getting rid of those service.s (although I drink raw milk not inspectors on that shit). No one should pay for my kids education or my wifes etc... I did mention though i will be the first hypocrite to admit if a bill comes out to forgive student loan i will use it since i'm going to be taxed for it. I hope it doesn't ever get passed i will pay what i owe. As far as handicap people the ones who cannot work should get assistance. i don't want to see anyone starve to death or treated like shit. But enough is enough you want an education pay for it. You want health care and are an able body person to work pay for it.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Aug 2, 2019 16:03:08 GMT -5
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong I mean, you total want to be dealing with things like measles again? And polio. How cool would it be for all those childhood diseases to come back again? And think if Rubella comes back...it can cause miscarriage..who cares...right if Joe's disease causes Betty to miscarry...or Sally gets it and ends up blind.
Do you have any kids? If you did, what did you teach them about things like STDs? Oh, honey, no...you catch it..you keep it mummsies, because you have no responsibility to tell any future partners. HPV is bunk...cancer, smancer. Right? Or, if you have kids, did you counsel them to never be sexually active, even in marriage.
not to be mean but what are you rambling about? There is vaccines and health care for etc no one ever said to get rid of it. i also paid for my kids vaccines and the ones who don't have the money i'm fine with tax monies being used for their vaccines. You are taking people paying for their own health care to a whole different level. Health care for able working folks should not be FREE. it's pretty simple. I have 2 daughters and 3 grands. My kids will be the first ones to tell you if someone wants or needs something get off their lazy ass and work for it.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Aug 2, 2019 16:11:37 GMT -5
Maybe, just maybe the fact that someone chose to not have children will not stop them from eventually needing a docor/dentist/etc. who actually does have a university education comes into play here . So yes, (university and all other) education does benefit even those without children or whose children are now grown. Of course we could also go the Soylent Green route but I don't really consider that an attractive alternative. soylent green crazy move wasn't that Steve Mcqueen? The Dr. and the universities should be paid for by the person attending. I'm not saying there can't be services for children that needs medical help or food, but somewhere along the line has to be drawn. Charlton Heston.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 16:28:22 GMT -5
I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong yes, that is indeed a difference. I am completely opposed to standing armies. if I had my choice, not a PENNY would be spent on them. it is just wrong.
you see what I mean?
my opinion is meaningless in a democracy, if I am in the minority. so is yours. all we can do is complain. and try to understand.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 16:30:04 GMT -5
Maybe, just maybe the fact that someone chose to not have children will not stop them from eventually needing a docor/dentist/etc. who actually does have a university education comes into play here . So yes, (university and all other) education does benefit even those without children or whose children are now grown. Of course we could also go the Soylent Green route but I don't really consider that an attractive alternative. soylent green crazy move wasn't that Steve Mcqueen? The Dr. and the universities should be paid for by the person attending. I'm not saying there can't be services for children that needs medical help or food, but somewhere along the line has to be drawn. yes, the line should be drawn outside every child in the US, at a minimum. if we can't agree on that, we are not worthy of any title other than shithole.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 16:32:16 GMT -5
Yeah, handicapped people should just beg on the streets like they do in 3rd world countries. Orphans and the mentally ill should just be sent to poorhouses. No one should have to pay for the inspectors who make sure the milk YOUR kids drink is safe or the hamburgers they eat at McD’s has been properly cooked.. No one should have to pay for the schools and universities YOUR kids attend. (Ignoring the fact that everyone benefits from an educated workforce) No one should have to pay for the roads YOU drive on..... And, of course, you never use the public library... Most of what you listed we already have i'm not saying getting rid of those service.s (although I drink raw milk not inspectors on that shit). No one should pay for my kids education or my wifes etc... I did mention though i will be the first hypocrite to admit if a bill comes out to forgive student loan i will use it since i'm going to be taxed for it. I hope it doesn't ever get passed i will pay what i owe. As far as handicap people the ones who cannot work should get assistance. i don't want to see anyone starve to death or treated like shit. But enough is enough you want an education pay for it. You want health care and are an able body person to work pay for it. if we are not going to have sufficient education in the US so that people know right from wrong, and can reason their way through an election, then we should END our experiment with elected government. because it requires an informed electorate.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 2, 2019 16:44:56 GMT -5
Yeah, handicapped people should just beg on the streets like they do in 3rd world countries. Orphans and the mentally ill should just be sent to poorhouses. No one should have to pay for the inspectors who make sure the milk YOUR kids drink is safe or the hamburgers they eat at McD’s has been properly cooked.. No one should have to pay for the schools and universities YOUR kids attend. (Ignoring the fact that everyone benefits from an educated workforce) No one should have to pay for the roads YOU drive on..... And, of course, you never use the public library... Most of what you listed we already have i'm not saying getting rid of those service.s (although I drink raw milk not inspectors on that shit). No one should pay for my kids education or my wifes etc... I did mention though i will be the first hypocrite to admit if a bill comes out to forgive student loan i will use it since i'm going to be taxed for it. I hope it doesn't ever get passed i will pay what i owe. As far as handicap people the ones who cannot work should get assistance. i don't want to see anyone starve to death or treated like shit. But enough is enough you want an education pay for it. You want health care and are an able body person to work pay for it. You don't eat food from the grocery stores, because you grow your own, and hunt? You burn your trash? You have a well for your own water?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 16:47:34 GMT -5
Most of what you listed we already have i'm not saying getting rid of those service.s (although I drink raw milk not inspectors on that shit). No one should pay for my kids education or my wifes etc... I did mention though i will be the first hypocrite to admit if a bill comes out to forgive student loan i will use it since i'm going to be taxed for it. I hope it doesn't ever get passed i will pay what i owe. As far as handicap people the ones who cannot work should get assistance. i don't want to see anyone starve to death or treated like shit. But enough is enough you want an education pay for it. You want health care and are an able body person to work pay for it. You don't eat food from the grocery stores, because you grow your own, and hunt? You burn your trash? You have a well for your own water? I long ago concluded that I don't really care what the sovereign state folks think, so long as they don't sway elections.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 2, 2019 16:51:58 GMT -5
I don't need military protection. why should I have to pay for it?
I don't need the court system. I can settle matters with my gun and my hands. why should I pay for it?
yes, I am being sarcastic. but there is a point to it: it is there because we agree as a nation to pay for it. for a variety of reasons, which I would be happy to articulate, if you can't guess them. but I am sure you can.
it is a shame that anyone has to even ask that question. everyone should just innately know the answer.
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong Then the state of California owes me a buttload of taxes I've paid all these years that go towards the local schools. I mean, I have no kids, so I shouldn't have had to pay, right?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Aug 2, 2019 16:53:49 GMT -5
The difference i have a problem with is everyone's health, education, is not the responsibility for everyone else. It's just wrong Then the state of California owes me a buttload of taxes I've paid all these years that go towards the local schools. I mean, I have no kids, so I shouldn't have had to pay, right? we are all kids at some point or another. perhaps we should consider it "paying back"?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Aug 2, 2019 18:22:24 GMT -5
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Aug 2, 2019 18:22:35 GMT -5
Exactly... It's kind of like bailing out the homeowners, not that long ago, that were underwater on their mortgages. (harp) Those who bought the biggest houses with the biggest debt, were receiving tax payer bailouts. Not very fair, considering that a lot of those people being bailed out, were being paid for by the taxes collected from people who chose a cheaper/smaller house in case things got a little rough. Where's the responsibility for your own decision ? I found $7.8 billion for underwater mortgages. I found $12.7 trillion for underwater banks. I totally disagreed with bailing the banks out.
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kadee79
Senior Associate
S.W. Ga., zone 8b, out in the boonies!
Joined: Mar 30, 2011 15:12:55 GMT -5
Posts: 10,795
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Post by kadee79 on Aug 2, 2019 20:10:28 GMT -5
The FACTS..... www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/08/01/its-time-democrats-get-their-facts-right-medicare-for-all/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.1f965c9adfbcSecond, it’s wrong to assert that taxes will rise without talking about what health care currently costs Americans in premiums, co-pays and deductibles. The average American family with employer-sponsored insurance incurs more than $28,000 dollars in health-care costs per year, of which about $15,800, or 56 percent, is paid by employers. And many argue they still can’t get the care they need. Americans are smart enough to be asked questions like: Would you be willing to pay more in taxes each month if you saved more money by not paying private insurance premiums, deductibles and co-pays and were guaranteed high-quality health care?
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