GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 20, 2019 16:59:20 GMT -5
Please don't diverge into a political or constitutional discussion. I am seeking fact, not opinion here.
YDS turns 21 next month. He's a tree-hugging, super healthy-eating, Dean's List, free-ride, nearly vegetarian college kid who tends toward rule-following. He wants a gun for his birthday. I do not own a gun nor have I ever even held one. I'm not necessarily opposed to them, I'm scared of them. But, YDS spends weeks at a time deep in the forest, so I figured a hunting rifle made sense to protect him from bears and other creatures. Nope, the kid wants a 9 MM handgun. I'm fairly certain a 9 MM will not protect him against bears. He says he wants a 9 MM because he has a right to own a gun and for personal protection. I am not aware of any threatening incidents, nor does he live in a high crime area aside from some car break-ins and other college-related theft. However, he has admitted to unwittingly encountering more meth labs out in the wilderness than bears, so the need for personal protection is likely legit.
So, wise and knowledgeable YMers, tell me about 9 MM handguns. What are they good for? Are they appropriate for "personal protection"? Can you tell me why a 9 MM would be the gun of choice of a 21 year old? He is already aware that he will have to receive handgun training, apply for a license in both our state and the state in which his college is, and he will have to keep the gun in a locker at the college police station. I'm also open to any additional training anyone might recommend.
Thanks, folks.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 20, 2019 17:06:34 GMT -5
Well, you're right about one thing. A handgun will definitely not stop a bear.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 20, 2019 17:10:03 GMT -5
A meth-head? Maybe, if you shoot him in the head, like a Zombie from the Walking Dead. If they're shot in the torso, they don't even feel it.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 20, 2019 17:15:15 GMT -5
Offer to buy him a hunting rifle. The money for a handgun can come from his own wallet.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 20, 2019 17:19:11 GMT -5
Imo, because you can isn't a very good reason. Because of meth heads, is.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 20, 2019 17:27:37 GMT -5
Imo, because you can isn't a very good reason. Because of meth heads, is. I totally agree. My “Mom Gut” tells me there was, in fact, an incident of some kind related to a wilderness meth lab....
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 20, 2019 18:24:29 GMT -5
A 9mm will stop a person for the most part. It is one of the more common handguns, and the ammunition is cheaper. There is a HUGE difference between guns, and he really needs to go shooting at a range (preferably taking classes) to learn how to properly use and care for a gun.
We shoot at the range regularly, but when TD was trying to teach me, he had a Glock 17, which is a 9 mm. He also has a Glock 26, which has a short barrel 9 mm. I could not hit the broad side of a barn with either of those guns. It wasn’t until we started taking classes and I got the opportunity to try a lot of different guns that I found I could shoot and hit a target with something i was more comfortable shooting. I later chose a Kimber 1911 as my gun of choice, and am quite good using it. But I still cannot hit anything with his Glocks. Until I got my Kimber, I went to the local range and tried many other models, but I kept going back to the 1911. The 1911 has more stopping power. Ammunition is more $$ too. I probably blow through $50 each time I go shooting, and when I take refresher classes, TD and I can easily go through $400 in a weekend. It isn’t cheap.
I would make the offer to buy only after he goes to and completes some courses and jumps through the hoops necessary to . It isn’t just a matter of going into a store and buying a gun. And he is the one who needs to ‘buy’ it because it is his background check that is needed.
I am licensed to carry in 38 states, so where he goes with a gun really depends upon the reciprocity of that state to where he can carry. There are certain states that accept no reciprocity. My shooting instructor will not go into NY, IL or CA with his guns. Much of this stuff is covered in classes about how to cross state lines with firearms. I had an interesting time getting my dad’s guns out of N.Y., even though both m6 sister and I have CWP in WA and MN.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jul 20, 2019 18:33:13 GMT -5
Seriously take him to a shooting range before buying anything. Most have guns you can rent for shooting and he can try out different ones. Weight, hand grip, length are all personal preferences that he should know before buying one. Think of it like trying on shoes.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jul 20, 2019 20:05:01 GMT -5
I will also speak up recommending that he go to a range and try some different ones out. Let someone else walk him through what he needs and why. A 9mm is a good cartridge, but there’s so much variability after that, it’s hard to just get a 9mm, as the style of weapon makes a difference (king barrel, short barrel, semiautomatic, etc).
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 20, 2019 21:51:17 GMT -5
Thank you!!! That’s the kind of info we need.
Dumb question: does he need a gun license to go to a range and try guns out, or only to buy one?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 21, 2019 0:18:35 GMT -5
Thank you!!! That’s the kind of info we need. Dumb question: does he need a gun license to go to a range and try guns out, or only to buy one? No. In WA, they do not require anything, but where you live it may be different. Here, they will ask you if you have any training, and may provide some rudimentary education. All you need is an ID and money.
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bobosensei
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Post by bobosensei on Jul 21, 2019 6:54:54 GMT -5
Have him check to see if guns are allowed on his college campus. Also if he is out hiking he needs to check if they are allowed where he hikes. He might find that most places he goes he can't even have the gun. Guns aren't cheap so I wouldn't spend the money if I couldn't have it with me where I wanted it.
If he gets one he can be trained in how to use it to get comfortable with it. I've been to a shooting range a few times. I'm still nervous with guns though.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jul 21, 2019 7:08:54 GMT -5
I have a Walther p380 and a Glock 43 9MM. I prefer the .380 but the Glock is a little smaller and fits my hand better. The Glock is what I carry in the car when traveling.
It was a good suggestion for son to check where he will be that he feels he needs one. All weapons are illegal on Federal property regardless whether or not the person has a carry permit. Even VA employees (and volunteers) at the VA medical center are not allowed to even have them in our vehicles.
Even if he doesn't want to get his carry permit, it would be a good idea to have him take the carry permit class, mine was $80 for 4 hours.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 21, 2019 8:34:35 GMT -5
Very true. I have yet to work on a college campus that allows guns. When I was training for my CWP, there was going to be a major decision as to whether or not I would/could carry. I was working very late hours and there had been a lot of sexual assaults on campus. I never had to make that decision though, but had I been caught, it would have been my job.
ETA: My shooting instructor says that your personal carry should be the gun you are most accurate with. If you can’t hit a threat, it is useless. Between his personal collection, and the offerings at the range, I probably shot with 20 different models before I chose. Not everyone has this luxury, but he should try to shoot as many as he can.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 21, 2019 11:11:58 GMT -5
He attends a college in Northern New England in an area where hunting is popular. Guns are allowed on campus but only to the extent that the campus police have storage lockers for students to store their guns. So, guns are not allowed in dorms, classrooms, etc.
Excellent point about Federal land. He does occasionally enter national parks in his travels but is more often on HUGE tracts of privately-held forest (with owner knowledge and permission/invitation). He will also have to explore carry rules on the private properties.
So, what does one do if one inadvertently enters Federsl land or crosses a state line with a gun? Stash it back outside the perimeter/border? He roams the forest with SOME intentional direction, but if they’re tracking an animal with a radio collar, I can see how he might cross a property line/border.
And, excellent point about needing to be accurate with any gun which furthers the point that he should try several/many before buying.
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jul 21, 2019 11:38:21 GMT -5
First, I would definitely have a carry permit, it can help when saying : I didn't realize I had crossed on to federal property. It can take up to 3 months to get one back from the state. Mine required a 4 hour class in gun safety and gun rules and regs. After the class, it was required that we pass the shooting test and we had to use the handgun that we used for the class. After that came the finger print process, and mine was signed by the carry permit instructor. It took about 3 months on average to receive the license back from the state as the fingerprints are sent to the FBI. (mine took longer due to faulty finger prints).
Cost of class was $80 and the cost of the license (by the state was $150).
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 21, 2019 13:14:08 GMT -5
First, I would definitely have a carry permit, it can help when saying : I didn't realize I had crossed on to federal property. It can take up to 3 months to get one back from the state. Mine required a 4 hour class in gun safety and gun rules and regs. After the class, it was required that we pass the shooting test and we had to use the handgun that we used for the class. After that came the finger print process, and mine was signed by the carry permit instructor. It took about 3 months on average to receive the license back from the state as the fingerprints are sent to the FBI. (mine took longer due to faulty finger prints). Cost of class was $80 and the cost of the license (by the state was $150). And this is very different from either WA or KY. KY has CWP requirements to BG. WA CWP requirements are pretty much nil. Pass a background check, get fingerprinted and pay around $30. No requirements for knowing rules or showing proficiency, which really sucks. For instance, I was waiting to be fingerprinted and there was a guy and another woman waiting. We started discussing why we wanted the CWP and the guy was telling us that he traveled in his RV to CA regularly. CA has their own set of rules and they are very specific. The other woman and I tried to tell him that taking a gun into CA was a bad idea and at the very least his gun would be confiscated. Not knowing the rules is not an excuse. He knew everything.....
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Blonde Granny
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Post by Blonde Granny on Jul 21, 2019 16:19:03 GMT -5
Missouri has no requirements for hand guns. I got my carry permit a few years ago, so Arkansas laws may have changed.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jul 21, 2019 16:26:26 GMT -5
Well, you're right about one thing. A handgun will definitely not stop a bear. If the bear is charging, probably not, but it might deter a bear who is meandering around but doesn't want to deal with people.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 21, 2019 16:48:16 GMT -5
Imo, because you can isn't a very good reason. Because of meth heads, is. I totally agree. My “Mom Gut” tells me there was, in fact, an incident of some kind related to a wilderness meth lab.... Just from stories, I'm more fearful of methheads than bears.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Jul 21, 2019 16:56:07 GMT -5
A handgun will be useful against an attack by another human being. A bear? I doubt it! As it was pointed out, 9mm handguns are very common which means he can get cheap ammo and has a wider range to pick from. Glocks are very common and well priced. FNs are a mid range price, very well balanced, very little recoil. S&W are possibly the best but they are higher priced. Cheap and very well balanced-Taurus. There is also a version of a 9mm Berreta made by a Turkish company(they bought the patent) but anything that was designed by Berreta bites the hand so it takes getting used to it. For a 9mm pistol I’d go with a short barrel, semiautomatic. Or you could get him a snub nose .38 revolver. Just as efficient and no recoil to speak of, easy to conceal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2019 17:57:37 GMT -5
Before anyone carries a weapon, I suggest they consider a few questions. How will you carry? Where will you carry? Where will you store the weapon when you don't want to carry? Where will you store the weapon when entering a premise where you can't carry?
As someone who has been permitted and carried, these are significant questions so I'll answer them from my perspective.
1. How will you carry? Shoulder, hip, ankle? All have advantages in terms of access and challenges in terms of comfort and visibility. A lot depends on how your state defines concealed vs. open carry, your climate and your person comfort level.
2. Where will you carry? Do the places you go to often allow carry, open or concealed? Your residence, church, bar, library?
3 and 4. So you don't want to carry at a particular place and time, or the law won't let you carry there. What are you going to do with the gun? Leaving in your vehicle is really a problem. If you go to a restaurant with valet parking, how do you secure it? And if you park on the street somewhere, how do you secure it? And this doesn't even cover the issues of public transit or Uber/Lyft.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 21, 2019 18:25:12 GMT -5
I've owned my 9mm for about a year and a half now. Over the years I've been to the range and fired different guns but not with any regularity. I took a beginner's handgun course that was taught by a former marine who teaches and trains regular folks all the way up to law enforcement. At the end of the class he said he also does private lessons if anyone wants to try different weapons before making a purchase so I took him up on the offer and he brought probably 10 guns that I fired. I go to the range a few times a year now, keep my unloaded weapon locked up, ammo separate and so on. Somewhere down the line I may do the intermediate course they offer to work on my marksmanship. If I ever wanted to go the concealed carry route I would reach back out to the trainer and go through the CC course while working more with him. In my opinion someone who hasn't served, isn't in a law enforcement, wasn't brought up with weapons, etc. needs to at a minimum take a course before purchasing a weapon they know nothing about. Along with training as others said I'd recommend trying different handguns because as mentioned they will feel different and everyone will have a preference. Even in CA at the ranges they have different weapons you can rent and the people working there are usually happy to answer any questions and they want people to feel comfortable and more importantly know what they're doing.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jul 22, 2019 10:54:29 GMT -5
Another dumb question: what does “9 mm” refer to? The ammo size? The barrel length? What about a “38”or a “45”?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 22, 2019 11:10:03 GMT -5
Yes 9 mm refers to the cartridge size which is 9 mm in diameter. Someone saying they want a 9 mm usually means they want a semi automatic handgun but there are a lot of options out there. Glocks are quite popular but the feel of a Glock 17 and Glock 19 are different. This is why anyone interested should take a course first and fire different weapons to get a feel for what they like or prefer.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 22, 2019 13:12:19 GMT -5
Yes 9 mm refers to the cartridge size which is 9 mm in diameter. Someone saying they want a 9 mm usually means they want a semi automatic handgun but there are a lot of options out there. Glocks are quite popular but the feel of a Glock 17 and Glock 19 are different. This is why anyone interested should take a course first and fire different weapons to get a feel for what they like or prefer. So a 45 mm cartridge size is almost 2 inches in diameter?
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 22, 2019 13:30:31 GMT -5
45 refers to a diameter in inches of 0.45 which is ~11.5 mm and has a history dating back to the 1870's when the colt 45 which used the .45 cartridge was used by the army. You posed an interesting question and I'm definitely not an expert so I looked it up. For whatever reason once upon a time the diameter in inches stuck and somewhere along the line other calibers referenced mm's.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jul 22, 2019 13:34:49 GMT -5
45 refers to a diameter in inches of 0.45 which is ~11.5 mm and has a history dating back to the 1870's when the colt 45 which used the .45 cartridge was used by the army. You posed an interesting question and I'm definitely not an expert so I looked it up. For whatever reason once upon a time the diameter in inches stuck and somewhere along the line other calibers referenced mm's. It's very confusing. So, a 9mm refers to the diameter of the cartridge, but a 38 or 45 does not?
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Jul 22, 2019 13:42:09 GMT -5
I'd pay for some lessons and target practice time. Let the experts help him find a gun that will suit his needs. If he is short for cash, using it towards lessons and practice will help more than having a gun he doesn't know how to use and can't afford to shoot.
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souldoubt
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Post by souldoubt on Jul 22, 2019 13:42:21 GMT -5
Being an American my thought was the 45 originated in the US while the 9 mm came from Europe and that appears to be the case as the 9 mm was developed by a German company. Pretty much us heathens in the US had to be different and use the imperial system instead of the metric system.
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