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Post by BeenThere...DoneThat... on Apr 7, 2011 9:15:48 GMT -5
I think we are all entitled to look for a job and earn a living. Other than that? Not much, if anything. What kind of job and what kind of living is based on your life decisions and choices--you aren't "entitled" to anything. ...add in the proper paperwork (read: citizenship/green card) and I agree...
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Post by tea4me on Apr 7, 2011 9:33:32 GMT -5
Some people think they are entitled to my earnings. ;D
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 9:40:53 GMT -5
You know, I might not be as against welfare as I am if it came with certain conditions... You must serve x hours of community service each week, or you have to show up to a building that is equipped with educational materials like math books, reference books, training books, etc, etc. There are computers to look for jobs. You can bring your kids to an on-site daycare. But you MUST show up at least 20 hours a week. No playing on the smart-phone, to tv, etc. But really, some families are just generation after generation of welfare queens because they've learned that no work = do whatever I want all day and I'll still be taken care of. The rules, the way they are now, don't help the people who are trying to work their way up in life. I'd say more, but my lunch break is over and I have to go back to work, because no one else is paying my bills. that is my only problem with social programs - they don't do enough to get people off of them. And why should they? Think of all the gummint jobs that would be lost if people actually used welfare temporarily.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Apr 7, 2011 9:41:27 GMT -5
Mich I was listening to people talk about getting an appointment with a dentist that will accept medicaid last week. They were actually senior citizens.
Medicaid does not pay for dental treatment for those over 18 years of age.
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973beachbum
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 7, 2011 9:45:21 GMT -5
Mich I was listening to people talk about getting an appointment with a dentist that will accept medicaid last week. They were actually senior citizens.Medicaid does not pay for dental treatment for those over 18 years of age. In Nj it will if they have a low enough income. I don't know how low or what they cover but I do know there is a big stink going on now the the Gov is trying to cut it.
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Post by mtshastawriter on Apr 7, 2011 10:00:03 GMT -5
We have Medicaid and there isn't a dental office within 80 miles of us who will accept it. There is also only one medical office, at this time, who will accept a new patient with Medicaid and it's the "county free clinic" place. When the clinic is closed, and it can't wait, you are told to go to ER for services... It would be great if our county would get a 24 hr, or at least 7 day a week, clinic but I don't see that happening anytime in the near future.
Since DH's passing, and my increase in freelance income, I have been looking for insurance options for when we loose Medicaid coverage. There really aren't any good or affordable options... I am likely going to have to go without. I live in CA and we have some of the most expensive medical insurance in the country due to the rules and regulations that govern what can be sold in our state.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 10:03:39 GMT -5
That's why I get so frustrated with the new healthcare legislation - giving people medicaid doesn't mean they will realistically have access to care.
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Post by tea4me on Apr 7, 2011 10:08:28 GMT -5
I don't have dental insurance and the clinic expects me to pay for a root canal out-of-pocket. The nerve of them!!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 10:28:28 GMT -5
Kind of off topic, but anyway........... The comments about young women having more kids than they can take care of.......... I had an *oops* pregnancy at 19, married the Daddy, had another *oops* baby. While I was pregnant with the 2nd one, I started asking my doctor about getting my tubes tied. She wouldn't even discuss it with me during my pregnancy. After my baby was born, I brought it up again, she refused to do it. Her reasoning was that I was young and my kids were babies, what if something happened to 1 of them. Didn't make sense to me, because I don't believe you can replace a child with another one. Besides, I cherished my babies, but I already had 2 more than I'd planned on ever having.
I went to a couple more doctors asking about it, no one would do it because I was only 22. Talking to other women, I heard similar stories. I had private insurance and the ex and I were willing to pay what we had to, but I couldn't get it done because I was too young, even though I was married and already had 2 babies.
I was a college dropout with no skills and no job, the ex didn't get a job until I got pregnant the first time, thankfully ended up with a decent blue collar job before the baby was born. I'd done everything ass-backwards and I didn't have much practical sense about life (obviously, given my choices)....... but I had enough sense to know that 1. I did NOT need any more kids and 2. Every bc pill I'd tried made me sick and I was careless with the other options available at the time, so being unable to get pregnant at all was my best option.
After all these years, I've remained adamant about not wanting more children. It still kind of ticks me off that my options for avoiding pregnancy again were limited, not by any government interference, money or medical facts; just because Doctors thought I was too young to decide what was best for me and my life.
I can't be the only woman that happened to. It was only by the grace of God that I managed to raise my children without going on the government dole.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 7, 2011 10:29:35 GMT -5
"Ah but this is what sticks in my craw, having children is a choice, you make 35k and want a baby get your ass some more education to get a better job, or find a better paying job. I really cannot believe I read that actually. Since when is having children an entitlement. Amen to that. I wish more people realized this. They don't, though, and I don't want the kids to suffer for that." I don't think my kids are suffering. Maybe it's because I do live in a LCOL area? I couldn't imagine raising them on $25k in NYC, but for here? Nope, no suffering. I didn't mean you, Sue. I was talking about people who decide to raise kids when doing so requires living beyond their means, full stop. If you can raise happy and healthy kids on $25k a year, then I salute you. Also, thanks Apple.
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Apr 7, 2011 10:30:34 GMT -5
I think we are all entitled to look for a job and earn a living. Other than that? Not much, if anything. What kind of job and what kind of living is based on your life decisions and choices--you aren't "entitled" to anything. ...add in the proper paperwork (read: citizenship/green card) and I agree... Oooohhh... I love your addition!!
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Apple
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Post by Apple on Apr 7, 2011 10:37:24 GMT -5
Pink--I was very fortunate with my doctor. He'd been my dr since I was pregnant and knew I did NOT want more kids. He did a vasectomy on then-husband when he was 21 or 22. I told him before the baby was born and after, that's what we want. So the third time, he had us fill out paperwork and he agreed to it. Before that I had tried Depo (gained 60 lbs in about 6 months), bcp (I'm horrible at remembering to take pills, I have to have stashes of my thyroid pills everywhere because I often forget to take one in the morning), but I was scared to death of getting pregnant again. I was 25, divorced, with one child when he let me get my tubes tied. Other people are shocked he "allowed" me and the ex to do this so young, but I've forever been grateful. I'm 32 and don't have a single regret about it (other than I should have just skipped straight to a near-full hysterectomy at the beginning--would have saved a ton of money--I would have had just one surgery instead of four, two which included hospital stays--and other issues).
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 7, 2011 10:41:00 GMT -5
Pink,
I like you, I really do, I've followed your posts on old YM, etc, but you have got to be kidding me. There are NUMEROUS forms of birth control besides getting your tubes tied. Yes, I get it, that might be the surest thing there is, but getting ticked off bc you couldn't get that is absolutely no excuse (and I am not saying that "you" are using it as an excuse) to prevent unwanted children.
Do accidents happen? Absolutely. But no one, no personal story, no medical research, nothing will convince me that the majority of "oops" pregnancies couldn't have been prevented if a woman and/or man wanted it badly enough.
But having kids now days has become such a easy thing to do that people just don't care anymore.
Lena
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Apr 7, 2011 10:45:28 GMT -5
I don't think Firebird was looking to turn this into a debate about the best model of healthcare, so I won't go there (though I, unsurpirsingly, have strong opinions on the topic ) I don't think anyone on here is saying that all kids are entitled to a computer in the home and swimming lessons. I don't think the government should ever be on the hook to pay for those things. I do believe every child is entitled to a safe place to live, nutritious food to eat, adequate and timely healthcare, and an education that will enable them to get a job and provide for their own future children some day. Educating our children is already the government's job. Most parents, even college educated ones, are not capable of providing their child the fully rounded education they need. Not all employers offer affordable healthcare to their employees, or for their employees families. In the medical culture we currently have, I do believe it is the state's job to step in and make sure children have health coverage if their parents can't afford to provide it for them. I don't believe the state should be providing health care for able bodied/minded adults, though I do believe there is a responsibility to keeping insurance and medical costs affordable. (Again, in our current health care system, which is not my preferred sytem, but lets work with what we have.) A safe place to live and food on the table is a parent's job. But sadly, not all parents can provide that, and again, in those cases, I believe that we as a society have a responsibility to help out. Food banks and other charities can pick up some of the slack, and I fully supoort (and donate) to them. But there are some issues (especially when it comes to a safe place to live) that charities and private citiazens are not and should not be equipped to handle. That is the government's job.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 7, 2011 11:09:07 GMT -5
Pink Cashmere, that really sucks. I personally know people who were dead set against having children in their early 20s and changed their minds, myself included, so I understand where your mother and doctor were coming from - but as far as I'm concerned, your childbearing choices (and the consequences of those choices) should be up to you, not some arbitrary age imposed by someone else.
If you did get your tubes tied and regretted it, that would be YOUR problem, not the doctor's. I suppose he was trying to guard against suits, because it seems like people will sue over everything. But that's going back to the whole "our society doesn't make anyone take responsibility for anything" schtick that makes me all ranty, so I'll cut myself off here.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 7, 2011 11:10:00 GMT -5
Also, I admit I don't know anything about this but isn't it possible to freeze your sperm / eggs prior to getting your tubes tied in case you do change your mind one day?
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 7, 2011 11:12:32 GMT -5
Do accidents happen? Absolutely. But no one, no personal story, no medical research, nothing will convince me that the majority of "oops" pregnancies couldn't have been prevented if a woman and/or man wanted it badly enough.
This is also true. But then I'm so fanatic about birth control that I literally panicked when I found out that I took my pill two hours late because of daylight savings, so I'm probably not the best control sample.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 11:16:16 GMT -5
Lena, I agree that most *oops* pregnancies can be avoided. There weren't as many options available then as there are now. I was trying to make a decision based on what I knew about myself. Pills made me sick and I'd proven I wouldn't use other methods reliably.
It's a sore point for me because the doctors made the decision for me and I don't think their reasons were good enough. I was young, yes. But I already had TWO children. It was my body, my money, my life; the doctors' *feelings* shouldn't have been the basis for limiting my options when I knew what was best for me.
I ended up taking the pill for years and years and being sick every single day or night no matter what brand I tried. I sucked it up though, because I would've been even sicker if I'd had a baby. I should've been able to get my tubes tied when I was trying to.
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Firebird
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Post by Firebird on Apr 7, 2011 11:22:00 GMT -5
I agree with you, Pink. The non-medication-based birth control options don't usually work as well, and medication-based ones make a lot of women sick.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 7, 2011 11:34:50 GMT -5
Pink, You just proved my point For someone (like you) who finds it important enough to prevent unwanted pregnancies, they find a way to do it. That being said, I do find it ridiculous that drs would not perform a procedure that you wanted them to do. I wonder if those same drs would perform an abortion after you got pregnant. Bc THAT would tick me off immensely. Lena
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 11:41:01 GMT -5
I think that "unabe to work" is both a problem at the individual and at the corporate level. I have 100 people that work for me. There are still things that I need done for which none of us seem to have the time. I say let all businesses make a list of un-skilled labor that they need done, and let the unemployed work at these for their entitlements. Or let them do public sector service activities. Many states use non-violent offenders to do some of these tasks. Those receiving taxpayer-funded subsidies/entitlements could do the same. If it is work why would it be classified as assistance? Work gets a paycheque. Why doesn't your company hire someone to do the work?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2011 11:54:11 GMT -5
'I do find it ridiculous that drs would not perform a procedure that you wanted them to do. I wonder if those same drs would perform an abortion after you got pregnant. Bc THAT would tick me off immensely."
And that's pretty much MY point. It's not difficult to get an abortion even in your teens. It's not difficult to pop out babies and rely on strangers to help provide for them for years. But a young woman that believes that paying for a tubal ligation is her best option for avoiding those situations, can't get one because even though she's a legal adult with a family, she's not old enough to make that decision. Doesn't make sense to me.
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Post by qofcc on Apr 7, 2011 12:11:26 GMT -5
I can't be the only woman that happened to. It was only by the grace of God that I managed to raise my children without going on the government dole.
I had a similar experience. Oops pregancy at 19, married the dad, another oops pregnancy at 21, couldn't take the pills, another oops pregnancy while nursing child #2 which resulted in a ruptured tubal pregnancy and emergency surgery at 22 - took them days to diagnose it and I almost died, then I got endometriosis and was in severe pain for days at a time every month. The doctor thought hysterectomy was the best option, but he was afraid I was too young and would want another child. I had to fight with the insurance company for a year and submit to lapriscopic surgery so they could confirm the endometriosis diagnosis before they would allow me to have the hysterectomy and even then, they made me sign a bunch of forms saying I wasn't going to sue anybody if I changed my mind and wanted more kids later. I raised my kids on my own without any child support or govenrment hand outs, but I don't know if that would have been possible with a third baby.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Apr 7, 2011 13:01:31 GMT -5
I went through the same fight to get my vasectomy at 22. The military previously had some arbitrary table that you had to be 25 with 2 kids, or 28 with 0-1 before they'd do it. I have no idea where they got the numbers. I also found it a bit ironic that the military would do it this way. At 18 I was old enough to decide to sell my butt to Uncle Sam, decide to go into wicked dangerous military occupational specialties like explosive ordinance disposal, old enough to be responsible for multi million dollar government assets, old enough to be trusted with top secret information, but not old enough to decide I didn't want kids... WTF?!?
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Apr 7, 2011 13:16:55 GMT -5
I had a similar experience re: reproductive choices...
I tried hormonal BC at 19, was sick as a dog for a month. My gyno told me I was not a good candidate for a diaphragm or any "barrier" method other than condoms because of the shape of my cervix. So I figured an IUD was my best bet. I went to 3 different gynecologists in my home state, and Planned Parenthood, and NONE would do it, because of my age. I'd hate to think of the reaction if I requested to have my tubes tied instead.
(I did finally get one after moving to NYC - not sure if it was because I was a few years older or living in a more progressive state. Probably a little of both.)
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 7, 2011 13:21:28 GMT -5
It wasn't tubal ligation but another procedure suggested to me that I was told I could not have until I was 35 and "done having kids". Since when do YOU get to decide when I am done having children? I was insulted both ways. One on the fact that apparently I can't decide before the age of 35 I don't want anymore children. Then the second that at 35 I am apparently "done" with those parts so lets cut them out! I wouldn't do it anyhow but it really cheesed me off that the doctor got to make the call based on when "they" think I would be done with children and those parts of my body.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Apr 7, 2011 13:23:53 GMT -5
Now I am wondering what my dr would have said. I will have to ask her next week when I see her. So far, I am in love with this woman, I hope she gives me the "right" answer Lena
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Post by lulubean on Apr 7, 2011 14:06:16 GMT -5
I respect everyone's opinion but OMG there is a lot of "oops" going on. After my two for a while I made damn sure another one wasn't coming.
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Post by 973beachbum on Apr 7, 2011 14:24:13 GMT -5
I got pregnant with my DD while on the pill. I remember being cheesed off that the Dr's office made statements that I must have missed a pill and just not remembered as it is so rare. Years later I hear them say that if you take antibiotics while on the BC it makes them sugar pills. Thanks for not giving me that little tidbit of information and then acting like I am a lying ditz brain.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Apr 7, 2011 14:28:36 GMT -5
My friend wanted to be fixed when she was young and had to fight the doctors to get it. She is an alcoholic and was adopted by Christians who were doing their duty taking her in. So she was on her own when they made her drop out of school to spread their religion door to door. She had no family at all when she was in her early adult years and with alcoholism knew she might not make a good mother and didn't want to try. She got surgically taken care of in her early 20s, never had any children, married and divorced 3 times. Joined AA and quit drinking a few times but started again. Now she is sober and shacking up and over 45. Not once has she ever regretted not having children.
She did find her birth family before her third marriage so I met some of them at her wedding.
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