TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 23, 2019 12:13:27 GMT -5
DC is pushing some initiative for solar panels and a few of my neighbors has gotten them: doee.dc.gov/service/solar-initiativesI made some light research on it, did not dig deep, and unless the government would cover 100% of the cost it did not seem worth it to me. My home is small (1120 sqft row home, 1680 if you include finished basement) and based some rough calculations this thing would save me ~$20/month. Maybe I am missing something ....
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 23, 2019 15:41:28 GMT -5
One of the nicest houses on our street had solar panels installed. I think they are ugly. I have no idea whether they are providing any significant savings. The house is probably 4000+ sq feet, so maybe it is worth it for them. I would be more interested in a windmill generating system I read about that looks like a tree and is not so conspicuous or fastened to the roof. I don't think the tree windmills are available yet; it was just a concept.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jun 23, 2019 16:30:29 GMT -5
Solar almost never pencils out to pay for itself, most people do it because it makes them feel good. Even large scale solar farms have a 20-30 year break even point, and by then the panels will likely need to be replaced and you start over again. If it wasn’t for the tax breaks, no one would do it (although, to be fair, that’s the same for every form of energy generation, tax breaks keep them going).
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Jun 23, 2019 16:34:50 GMT -5
Solar panels with enough capacity for my house would run @ $40,000. If my average bill is $200/month (pretty close), it will take 16 years to break even before any savings would kick in. And that’s assuming there are sufficient storage options for nighttime use.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2019 17:23:57 GMT -5
My comment is the same as Tractor's - they have about a 20 year useful life. Typically, right about the time they are paid for.
In my state, the power company has to buy your excess power. For this reason, the local utility charges $10K if you get solar and try to connect to their grid. They claim they don't have the infrastructure for buy-back and if you want to connect, then you pay for the upgrade. There's very little solar here for anyone on the grid.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 23, 2019 17:45:06 GMT -5
Last Feb we went total solar and DH is 81 and I'm 77. We probably won't live long enough to break even but this will be a positive selling point when this home is sold.
We live in the SW desert so our summer bills are around $300+ per month and winter is around $100. Our last couple of months have had ZERO kwh but because of service charges and taxes we are still paying around $50 per month. We have a battery and when that is filled, the overflow goes on the grid. Overnight our usage is taken off the battery. So far so good.
Our home is total electric and our electric usage hasn't changed, I still use the electric stove, electric dryer, etc. Our solar water system is completely different. If you are thinking about solar, start with the water heater and see what that does to your bill.
We've had our solar water heater for 11+ years, and with all the rebates and such, we figured a payoff at about 19 MONTHS ………..
they have about a 20 year useful life. Typically, right about the time they are paid for.
True, but in the 20 years technology will have improved and the next batch will last a lot longer ……….
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 23, 2019 18:07:43 GMT -5
This chart shows that the USA energy production from solar was 1.6% of our total. Fossil is about 60%, nuclear is about 20%, wind is about 10%. Ie, solar is almost negligible as an energy source. Yet the love affair with the Public continues - and we spend over $30B every year to subsidize solar.
""Solar panels with enough capacity for my house would run @ $40,000. If my average bill is $200/month (pretty close), it will take 16 years to break even"""
If you invested that $40,000 instead of spending it, it would grow to over $160,000 in 16 years. (The rule of 72) That $160,000 would pay your $200/m electric bill for many years.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Jun 23, 2019 19:00:05 GMT -5
We looked into, something like $40k to $60k at 73 no, even at $300 a month that's 20 to 30 year payback. The water heater might be worth it, that is one of our biggest energy hogs. We have a commercial rate at our house $.11 a kwh. We think might be due to the previous owner being CFO at the utility, have no idea and not asking. Our garage rate is something like $.26 a kwh that we added this year and its considered residential. Somethings you just don't ask about.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 23, 2019 20:45:58 GMT -5
I’ve analyzed several public solar projects. So, large scale, much more cost effective than a typical residential installation. None of the solar projects that I analyzed were financially justified.
If you assumed 100% efficiency for the life of the solar equipment (even though we know the performance of solar panels and batteries degrade over time), the payback period for the initial investment was 30 years. Thirty years for an installation that has a service life of about 25 or 30 years. (For the projects I analyzed, it seemed like the folks selling and installing solar systems structured their pricing to generate a 30 year payback.)
As several other posters have pointed out, you don’t do a solar installation because it will deliver financial benefits. You do it because you believe solar provides environmental benefits and because you get a warm fuzzy feeling.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 24, 2019 15:41:23 GMT -5
Thank you everyone... I thought my numbers were wrong because in the past month about 4 neighbors got it installed.
We all have similar built homes so I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning / cost saving behind it since per my calculations it would take ~20 years to break even at about ~$20/month which did not seem worth it.
Plus I have no guarantee I will be in this house in 5 years let alone 20 to break even.
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schildi
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Post by schildi on Jun 24, 2019 16:02:10 GMT -5
I just installed a solar system on my travel trailer. It was a fun installation, and it will extend our dry camping trip capabilities. Don't think it'll ever pay back, even though we do save about $5 per night with non-hookup sites. Cost of the system was about $800.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jun 24, 2019 18:24:33 GMT -5
Hmmm, IDK, Washington, DC is a bit further north than I am - and while I don't have solar panels on my house I solar cook. And November thru the end of January - there's only about 2 to 3 hours of "good sun" per day - IF it's not overcast. The sun is really low and the days are short. I'd look at your "spring/summer/fall" electric usage when deciding if solar will make a dent. That said, there are local businesses making solar work (solar hot water - even on those cold winter days is a saving for laundra mats and multi unit steam heated apartment buildings - as the boilers have to do less work). I'm seeing solar panels on houses but that's because there's rebates and grants and who knows what else that brings down the cost. I think the big selling point is electric expenses in the summer months. I think for families with a large house and maybe a pool, the energy savings is worth it. I'm starting to see solar electric panels on stip malls and "not so big box stores", too... they are going to more efficient lighting and cooling/heating too. For someone like me with a small house and 2 cats- I'm better off spending on efficient appliances and light bulbs and making sure my house is "tight" so cooling/heating is efficient. I'm pro renewable - but realize it's a not an all or nothing solution. I also accept that it's not a one size fits all kind of solution. I can totally see my house with no solar while the 4000 square foot monstrosity down the block might benefit from it - with it's 3 car garage/workshop and above ground pool and yard lighting. 'm sure it's got two laundry rooms (it's got 5 bedrooms, 7 bathrooms, and three floors of living space (the 4000 doesn't include the full finished basement). I bet it's got 7 or 8 TVs and dozens of light fixtures and probably 2 furnaces/2 a/cs and who knows what else. I assume you need alot of power to keep that thing going.
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 24, 2019 19:04:23 GMT -5
Hell no! We have barely had much sun in the last 4 months, and used the furnace a couple weeks ago. When is summer going to get here
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 24, 2019 21:30:57 GMT -5
Thank you everyone... I thought my numbers were wrong because in the past month about 4 neighbors got it installed. We all have similar built homes so I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning / cost saving behind it since per my calculations it would take ~20 years to break even at about ~$20/month which did not seem worth it. Plus I have no guarantee I will be in this house in 5 years let alone 20 to break even. Did you take into account the fed tax rebate? Once that is taken into consideration, the numbers change considerably. My vet has solar panels on their clinic, and even in the PNW it covers 100% of their electric. We have friends who just got them installed, and their $150/mo bill averages around $6/mo. Add in their tax rebate and payback is lower than you’d think.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 25, 2019 7:41:17 GMT -5
Thank you everyone... I thought my numbers were wrong because in the past month about 4 neighbors got it installed. We all have similar built homes so I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning / cost saving behind it since per my calculations it would take ~20 years to break even at about ~$20/month which did not seem worth it. Plus I have no guarantee I will be in this house in 5 years let alone 20 to break even. Did you take into account the fed tax rebate? Once that is taken into consideration, the numbers change considerably. My vet has solar panels on their clinic, and even in the PNW it covers 100% of their electric. We have friends who just got them installed, and their $150/mo bill averages around $6/mo. Add in their tax rebate and payback is lower than you’d think. Link to the Fed tax rebate? For something for my home size it would cost anywhere from 4K-7k (I picked 4K to the lower end), which is why I came up to ~$20/month - 20 years.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 25, 2019 7:59:19 GMT -5
Quick google search and seems with the Fed rebate I can save up to 30% of the total cost news.energysage.com/congress-extends-the-solar-tax-credit/Also have to own it, not lease/rent it ETA: upon further research the 30% is after the state or in my case DC rebate. So let’s say the DC rebate is 1k (pulling # out of my butt)... the 30% fed rebate is off $3,000 not the original 4K install.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 25, 2019 8:07:04 GMT -5
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 25, 2019 8:10:28 GMT -5
Last Feb we went total solar and DH is 81 and I'm 77. We probably won't live long enough to break even but this will be a positive selling point when this home is sold. We live in the SW desert so our summer bills are around $300+ per month and winter is around $100. Our last couple of months have had ZERO kwh but because of service charges and taxes we are still paying around $50 per month. We have a battery and when that is filled, the overflow goes on the grid. Overnight our usage is taken off the battery. So far so good. Our home is total electric and our electric usage hasn't changed, I still use the electric stove, electric dryer, etc. Our solar water system is completely different. If you are thinking about solar, start with the water heater and see what that does to your bill. We've had our solar water heater for 11+ years, and with all the rebates and such, we figured a payoff at about 19 MONTHS ……….. they have about a 20 year useful life. Typically, right about the time they are paid for.
True, but in the 20 years technology will have improved and the next batch will last a lot longer ………. I'm curious as to what battery system you got.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 25, 2019 8:15:43 GMT -5
I’ve analyzed several public solar projects. So, large scale, much more cost effective than a typical residential installation. None of the solar projects that I analyzed were financially justified. If you assumed 100% efficiency for the life of the solar equipment (even though we know the performance of solar panels and batteries degrade over time), the payback period for the initial investment was 30 years. Thirty years for an installation that has a service life of about 25 or 30 years. (For the projects I analyzed, it seemed like the folks selling and installing solar systems structured their pricing to generate a 30 year payback.) As several other posters have pointed out, you don’t do a solar installation because it will deliver financial benefits. You do it because you believe solar provides environmental benefits and because you get a warm fuzzy feeling. Please don't share that analysis with any of the schools, office buildings and businesses around here. They are putting in covered parking with solar panels in a lot of places. I don't know if it pans out or not, but I love the abundance of covered parking. I hope they keep making progress on solar panels. It may never give us 100% or even 50% of what we collectively use, but, we all have roofs, and they usually aren't doing much else, so if we can get to a point where the panels and equipment are cheap enough, even a 20% reduction in fossil and nuclear would make a difference.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Jun 25, 2019 8:18:50 GMT -5
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Jun 25, 2019 9:11:23 GMT -5
Hell no! We have barely had much sun in the last 4 months, and used the furnace a couple weeks ago. When is summer going to get here Today and Tomorrow.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 25, 2019 10:16:04 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what battery system you got.
Don't know what it's called but it's hanging on an outside wall in the garage. Measures 36" high, 26" wide, 8.5 inches from wall. The actual brand is LG. DH just said it's called 'Solar Edge' and it came with the system.
The battery was an additional $5K. Our total expenditure for the whole system is just under $20K. We'll have to wait until taxes next year to find out the incentives and such.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 25, 2019 10:25:25 GMT -5
I'm curious as to what battery system you got.
Don't know what it's called but it's hanging on an outside wall in the garage. Measures 36" high, 26" wide, 8.5 inches from wall. The actual brand is LG. DH just said it's called 'Solar Edge' and it came with the system. The battery was an additional $5K. Our total expenditure for the whole system is just under $20K. We'll have to wait until taxes next year to find out the incentives and such. Nice. With that cost for the whole system, my break even point would be less than 10 years. Plus, I'd have power when we have a storm and the powerlines go down. Last summer we spent 4 days and 3 nights (not consecutive) without power - particularly no AC. It was brutal. (Well, not the night I went to a hotel, except my husband was pissed - he thought we should tough it out, and I said he was welcome to stay home. He did not, but was super grumpy about it.)
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Jun 25, 2019 10:39:40 GMT -5
except my husband was pissed
Awww ………. poor baby
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 25, 2019 10:43:45 GMT -5
Hell no! We have barely had much sun in the last 4 months, and used the furnace a couple weeks ago. When is summer going to get here Today and Tomorrow. It's cloudy and raining right now. Although I see my blue skies past the cloud...
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Wisconsin Beth
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Jun 25, 2019 10:47:48 GMT -5
I just installed a solar system on my travel trailer. It was a fun installation, and it will extend our dry camping trip capabilities. Don't think it'll ever pay back, even though we do save about $5 per night with non-hookup sites. Cost of the system was about $800. We toyed with that. The minimal research we did suggested that we wouldn't harvest enough power unless it was multiple panels and we moved them during the course of the day to follow the sun. Maybe if we used ours to travel more.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Jun 25, 2019 11:32:25 GMT -5
Please don't share that analysis with any of the schools, office buildings and businesses around here. They are putting in covered parking with solar panels in a lot of places. I don't know if it pans out or not, but I love the abundance of covered parking.
It doesn't pan out as 'lower energy costs '. It is mostly "look at us, we are doing our part to save the planet". And schools and businesses get tax write-offs in addition to the subsidies that residences get. Plus the shaded parking and the good will in the community.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 25, 2019 12:05:09 GMT -5
I’ve analyzed several public solar projects. So, large scale, much more cost effective than a typical residential installation. None of the solar projects that I analyzed were financially justified. If you assumed 100% efficiency for the life of the solar equipment (even though we know the performance of solar panels and batteries degrade over time), the payback period for the initial investment was 30 years. Thirty years for an installation that has a service life of about 25 or 30 years. (For the projects I analyzed, it seemed like the folks selling and installing solar systems structured their pricing to generate a 30 year payback.) As several other posters have pointed out, you don’t do a solar installation because it will deliver financial benefits. You do it because you believe solar provides environmental benefits and because you get a warm fuzzy feeling. Please don't share that analysis with any of the schools, office buildings and businesses around here. They are putting in covered parking with solar panels in a lot of places. I don't know if it pans out or not, but I love the abundance of covered parking. I hope they keep making progress on solar panels. It may never give us 100% or even 50% of what we collectively use, but, we all have roofs, and they usually aren't doing much else, so if we can get to a point where the panels and equipment are cheap enough, even a 20% reduction in fossil and nuclear would make a difference. Same thing around here. Lots of solar installations at schools and public buildings. However, few at businesses. I see the public solar as a public relations ploy by folks that believe they have virtually unlimited funds from the taxpayer’s checkbook. A side benefit is covered parking for public sector staff. The fact that businesses, which must be financially responsible to stay in operation, have not jumped on to the solar bandwagon to any significant degree is a pretty good indication that solar is not financially justified at this point. Like you, when photovoltaic panels were first introduced to the public about 40 years ago, I had high hopes. Given that we have had several decades of government supported development for solar, I’m less optimistic about solar than I once was. If decades of subsidies can not make solar financially viable, I think that it is a long shot to believe that solar will become financially viable in the future.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 25, 2019 12:30:12 GMT -5
Thank you everyone... I thought my numbers were wrong because in the past month about 4 neighbors got it installed. We all have similar built homes so I could not for the life of me understand the reasoning / cost saving behind it since per my calculations it would take ~20 years to break even at about ~$20/month which did not seem worth it. Plus I have no guarantee I will be in this house in 5 years let alone 20 to break even. Did you take into account the fed tax rebate? Once that is taken into consideration, the numbers change considerably. My vet has solar panels on their clinic, and even in the PNW it covers 100% of their electric. We have friends who just got them installed, and their $150/mo bill averages around $6/mo. Add in their tax rebate and payback is lower than you’d think. In the analysis that I have done, you have to include tax rebates and subsidies to reach a 30 year payback. If you consider Carl’s $4K initial investment in a solar installation. Reducing the investment by a 30% tax rebate would make the net investment $2,800. Assume that Carl could invest that $2,800 and generate a return of about 10% on his investment, or $280 a year. If you take Carl’s $20 a month savings on electricity, you’d have $240 a year. While the numbers are close, it looks like over 30 years, Carl would be $1,200 ahead if he invested his $2,800 instead of buying solar panels. If Carl’s potential solar panel purchase was at that $7K end of the range, not buying solar panels would net him about $6,700 over the next 30 years.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 25, 2019 13:25:22 GMT -5
Did you take into account the fed tax rebate? Once that is taken into consideration, the numbers change considerably. My vet has solar panels on their clinic, and even in the PNW it covers 100% of their electric. We have friends who just got them installed, and their $150/mo bill averages around $6/mo. Add in their tax rebate and payback is lower than you’d think. In the analysis that I have done, you have to include tax rebates and subsidies to reach a 30 year payback. If you consider Carl’s $4K initial investment in a solar installation. Reducing the investment by a 30% tax rebate would make the net investment $2,800. Assume that Carl could invest that $2,800 and generate a return of about 10% on his investment, or $280 a year. If you take Carl’s $20 a month savings on electricity, you’d have $240 a year. While the numbers are close, it looks like over 30 years, Carl would be $1,200 ahead if he invested his $2,800 instead of buying solar panels. If Carl’s potential solar panel purchase was at that $7K end of the range, not buying solar panels would net him about $6,700 over the next 30 years. Where is Carl getting the $20/mo energy savings? We have several friends who have solar panels and even in the PNW, their savings on electric are running $100-150/mo. Last month, one told us he had a $6 electric bill.....and April up here is overcast most of the time. This was in a 2500 sq ft, mostly electric house.
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