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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 8:56:14 GMT -5
Ok, First I agree that starting salaries for teachers are to low (noting that 10 year salaries for some teachers in our district are to high). For example teachers where I live can start as low as $25K/yr (the union contract is public). Equally, Elementary School PE teachers are making $80K+/yr. The system is broken and causing our education to fail. That said, what is wrong with articles like this one: www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/education/2019/06/05/teachers-pay-cost-of-living-teaching-jobs/3449428002/Do they really have to "cheat" the facts. What happened to good journalism. In the graphic for new teachers it cites Madison, WI has the following: Median Salary: $37,550 Median Rent: $17,352 Teachers pay 40-60% of their salary in rent Then for Mid-Career teachers in Madison, WI has the following: Median Salary: $50,549 Median Rent: $17,352 Teachers pay 30-40% of their salary in rent Then for Longest Career teachers in Madison, WI has the following: Median Salary: $57,445 Median Rent: $14,904Teachers pay 20-30% of their salary in rent (noting this is normal) Then to top it off they mis-state the median rent (https://www.deptofnumbers.com/rent/wisconsin/madison/) which is $12,180. So this just become an article I can't hardly read, so biased that it actually harms teachers. Median Rent for our city shouldn't be changing based on your work experience, LL don't ask your years of work experience to determine price of housing. The $37K/yr qualifies for subsidized housing per city requirements so if anything that could show a lower median rent (these cost about $600/mo), while the mid/long career make more than would qualify. How do we get journalism back to it's roots, where reporters made sure they told the correct story instead of propaganda.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 9:00:56 GMT -5
::How do we get journalism back to it's roots, where reporters made sure they told the correct story instead of propaganda.::
Stop the 24 hours news cycle of online clicks being more important than the content...but I think that ship has sailed and probably isn't ever coming back to port.
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chapeau
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Post by chapeau on Jun 5, 2019 9:19:09 GMT -5
And don't forget to have actual editors doing <gasp> editing of articles. A copyeditor or proofreader should have caught that the median rent was different. A fact checker would have been necessary to get the correct number, but a news organization of that size should have at least one of those, too. And this is basically a feature/investigative piece, it's not breaking news where many readers* are willing to forgive an error or two in the rush to get the news out. This should have been a well-researched piece with documented sources that were contacted to confirm the information that was reported in the story.
I can still remember one of my bosses, second job out of school, ranting about editorializing in news pieces. "A reporter in a news article reports FACTS, without the use of biased language and opinion. Opinions belong on the op-ed page, and say EDITORIAL." Can you tell I heard that rant regularly? I don't say this often, but I think it's probably for the best that he's dead, because he would probably be having a stroke every day about this. Although I'm amazed that the world hasn't spun off its axis from him rolling over in his grave over it. * I am not one of those forgiving readers. If you don't know the information, just say so. Your readers will respect you in the morning when you have the facts right and aren't covering your you-know-what because of misinformation that you reported as fact.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Jun 5, 2019 9:43:38 GMT -5
... How do we get journalism back to it's roots, where reporters made sure they told the correct story instead of propaganda. Back in the day: Yellow journalism, the use of lurid features and sensationalized news in newspaper publishing to attract readers and increase circulation. The phrase was coined in the 1890s to describe the tactics employed in furious competition between two New York City newspapers, the World and theJournal. link
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 9:52:08 GMT -5
... How do we get journalism back to it's roots, where reporters made sure they told the correct story instead of propaganda. Back in the day: Yellow journalism, the use of lurid features and sensationalized news in newspaper publishing to attract readers and increase circulation. The phrase was coined in the 1890s to describe the tactics employed in furious competition between two New York City newspapers, the World and theJournal. link Is there a difference between "sensationalized" news, and the idea that news needs to grab readership (similar to sensationalized news) but today is done so quickly via online mediums that it's released without even being internally consistent? I feel like even if one wanted to write sensational or lurid stories, they could be done in a way that's still accurate/consistent reporting. Although maybe the comparison to yellow journalism is in "cheating the facts". But if you're going to cheat the facts maybe you should be doing so in a way that's not obvious within the same story. I feel like this article could have been written with the same level of sensationalism and still have been an intelligently written article even if I thought "that's not really journalism, that's op-ed with some facts".
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Jun 5, 2019 9:55:52 GMT -5
I'm just curious, is this post supposed to be about teachers and how much they're paid or is it supposed to be about journalism? I can only rationally participate in one of those topics.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 5, 2019 10:31:32 GMT -5
Once upon a time, when an issue was about to be publicized, it either had to make the news for a newspaper deadline, or the nightly news. With a 24/7 news cycle, the faster that it can get out, the better. Gotta beat the other guy.
About the salaries.....so what? When I started out, I paid 50% of my income for rent. When I left, at the top of my career, I was paying around 15%. My income trajectory is very similar to teachers, with just as obnoxious hours. Only difference was that I worked more days. However, I chose my career and knew that going into it.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 5, 2019 10:35:23 GMT -5
I don't have time to delve into everything...but Well, for journalism..the graphic is off. I think the starting salary of newbie teachers is over 40K. I found this :https://jobs.teacher.org/school-district/madison-metropolitan-school-district/ But housing in Madison IS expensive. 18 years ago, the crap two bedroom apartment DH and I lived in ran us 650. Apartment is still in a crap neighborhood, but now going for over 800. We live in an older, 70s neighborhood with modest homes (under 2400 sq feet). The elementary school is not great. It's turned around slightly...but, we're talking from almost failing to not. Houses are going for close to 300K. For a crappy elementary school. Houses with access to the best schools at all three levels in the desired neighborhoods are going for 600K. And again, these aren't 5-6 bedroom homes. We're talking 2K sq feet, postage stamp yards.
Even our first place, which is decidedly in one of the high crime areas in town...is going for 115-125k, give or take. We sold when obama was handing out thousands to prop up the housing market..for 89K.
Daycare in a center is just about 2K a month now for infant care
It's expensive to live here. More than people realize. ETA: And you also realize that there is not really subsidized housing. Builders pretty much pull every trick in the book to stall so then they can sell the low income housing for market price. Lower income units don't only have to stay on the market a limited time. If no one buys them in that timeframe, the builders can make the units available to everyone. And..for gov't subsidized housing...that list has been closed for years. The only way you get on is if you are elderly or disabled.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 5, 2019 11:19:04 GMT -5
Madison is more expensive to live in than Dubuque.
My nephew, who is a teacher, is switching from a private residential school for troubled youth to the public school system. Dubuque lists salary range for high school as $31,880 to $61,470. He just got his full license. He has told me he will be getting a $7000 per year increase from the private school and the benefits are better. Don't know if he will be paid $32K or a little more as a newly licensed teacher.
He has a house that was built in 1860. You read that right. To me, it's a disaster, but he could afford it and he's a farm boy who didn't want to be surrounded by people in an apartment complex. It's not in one of the nicer parts of town, but the bad parts of town in Dubuque are nothing compared to Madison or Milwaukee.
With the kind of work he is doing, IMO, he will not be overpaid when he reaches the full salary. I couldn't work with those kids.
Section 8 housing is the same as in Madison. Here, you can get on the list if you are already on housing elsewhere and move here. Then you go to the top. However, I would not live in those housing units. They are owned by slumlords.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 11:56:41 GMT -5
I don't think OP was doubting the cost of living in Madison. Just that it would be different for someone based on what stage of their career they were in. The average rent cost for the city should be the average rent cost regardless of what job the person has. I mean are they basing it off of the average rent that a person in that position is paying? That seems kind of a weird way to do it.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Jun 5, 2019 13:36:03 GMT -5
I don't think OP was doubting the cost of living in Madison. Just that it would be different for someone based on what stage of their career they were in. The average rent cost for the city should be the average rent cost regardless of what job the person has. I mean are they basing it off of the average rent that a person in that position is paying? That seems kind of a weird way to do it. I'm wondering if they are taking the data from a survey of teachers? Older teachers who have been working for a while probably own a home, and some percentage of them have paid off their mortgage. Those that haven't paid it off, probably have had the mortgage long enough that they are paying less per month than young people just starting out with a new mortgage. So if you averaged 100 people in that age group, their average housing costs would be less?
I don't know, just a guess.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jun 5, 2019 14:27:03 GMT -5
I had a few minutes to read. I couldn't find the WI stats. But I did notice that the article interchanges rent and mortgage, and they also rely on Zillow to help generate costs for housing. So, if the author treats rent and mortgage as 100% interchangable, that could be why costs go down for longtime career folks. Presumably, they'd have the money by then to buy a home, which might lower housing costs. Our PITI for our house is less than renting a three bedroom apartment. Our house would rent out at double what our PITI is.
I didn't think Zillow was particularly accurate, either.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 5, 2019 15:01:38 GMT -5
Ok, First I agree that starting salaries for teachers are to low (noting that 10 year salaries for some teachers in our district are to high). For example teachers where I live can start as low as $25K/yr (the union contract is public). Equally, Elementary School PE teachers are making $80K+/yr. The system is broken and causing our education to fail. ...
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Jun 5, 2019 15:08:14 GMT -5
Ack, can't seem to shorten the OP and comment outside the original post. Arghh.
Like many things one needs to know more about pay to judge effectively. PE teachers often make more than other teachers because they take on additional work like coaching sports after school. Out here in NJ, some districts call Grades 1 through 8, elementary school, which is different from my part of Illinois where elementary school ends at grade 5 and grades 6-8 are jr. high.
There are also sometimes support staff, and they get paid less. There's a TV ad running in NJ about teachers and the high cost of healthcare. I'd have to see actual figures to know if its really that bad, but I did feel for the para-professional in the ad, as I know exactly what it is like to live on less than $25K in NJ. Especially if you don't get affordable housing. I'd love to pay just 50 to 60% for housing. If you are low income in non-subsidized housing, you are looking at 70-90% or more of your income going to housing.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 17:36:45 GMT -5
And..for gov't subsidized housing...that list has been closed for years. The only way you get on is if you are elderly or disabled.
Not really here in Madison. www.arborcrossingapts.com/vacancies/That 1 Bedroom for 995/mo would be well in a reasonable price range for a new teacher making $40K (oh the $37K in the report is from the 2016 union contract, not the 2019). The limit for 1 person is $42K/yr so they qualify, not hard. Also, not hard to get one as I know several people, all who got the deal for 1-2 years after leaving college and starting their career, these are available in Madison. As for location that is in one of the top areas of town right now, so not some slum. Again, the facts seem to be missing. Also remember that $40K salary is only for working 75% of the year, a summer job could push those earning higher.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 17:43:45 GMT -5
I'm just curious, is this post supposed to be about teachers and how much they're paid or is it supposed to be about journalism? I can only rationally participate in one of those topics. The poor journalism. How can we debate teacher pay when they can't even get facts correct.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2019 17:52:57 GMT -5
I had a few minutes to read. I couldn't find the WI stats. But I did notice that the article interchanges rent and mortgage, and they also rely on Zillow to help generate costs for housing. So, if the author treats rent and mortgage as 100% interchangable, that could be why costs go down for longtime career folks. Presumably, they'd have the money by then to buy a home, which might lower housing costs. Our PITI for our house is less than renting a three bedroom apartment. Our house would rent out at double what our PITI is.
I didn't think Zillow was particularly accurate, either. Well, housing costs would make more sense, but then again, poor reporting to call it median rent. Where was the fact checker that edited the story before print? As other noted, this isn't the "plane went down in XXX" and need to publish today as next week it isn't news anymore. This is a long term piece, supposedly worked on for many weeks.
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geenamercile
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Post by geenamercile on Jun 5, 2019 17:58:13 GMT -5
Journalism has become more bias and just slanted. I read and listen to everything with a grain of salt now. But I think the majority of people like it that way so I don't see how it is going to change.
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 6, 2019 17:53:56 GMT -5
Where was the fact checker that edited the story before print?Laid off, light years ago. (Former print journalist here).
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 6, 2019 18:00:53 GMT -5
Where was the fact checker that edited the story before print?Laid off, light years ago. I don't think fact checkers or proof readers exist any more with newspapers. I think they rely on Spell Check, which we all know does not always work. The things I see young journalists write just astounds me. Same is true for the young television journalists and whoever writes their scripts and the talking points that show up behind them. The lack of spelling words correctly drives me crazy. Also that they don't take the time to learn how to pronounce names and words correctly. I know there are way too many candidates for president, but we are a caucus state and they are all visiting here. When you are going to do a story on the candidate, their name should be pronounced correctly. This is happening even with what I think are simple names to pronounce. It isn't that hard to Google their names to find the correct pronunciation.
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 6, 2019 18:28:51 GMT -5
Sadly, spelling is well on its way to becoming a lost art. I could not access the original article, but there are SO MANY THINGS wrong even with what was in the OP. For one thing, isn't it amazing that ALL these teachers live alone?! So they ALL have to pay ALL the rent on their own?! Because that's my take from the OP, since I couldn't access the article. OMG, don't ever become a teacher, because you will live alone FOREVER and NEVER EVER find anyone to share your rent, be it a roommate or a spouse LOL. (former print journalist who reincarnated as a teacher 10 years ago)
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debthaven
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Post by debthaven on Jun 6, 2019 18:34:49 GMT -5
In a similar vein, my DH is a graphic designer who works with many European clients. MANY moons ago, his clients had a budget for graphic design AND a budget for proofreading/editing. Sometimes DH would do the proofing/editing, but he'd often farm it out to me. Then when the economy got worse, DH was told, sorry, there's no more budget for proofreading/editing. But that's OK, because there's no need to proofread or edit this! Hans from Austria wrote this, and he speaks perfect English! DH proofreads and edits everything he lays out/designs, even if he spends extra hours doing it. I lost that extra work LOL.
But it's the same with journalism today. I got into a top journalism school because I knew how to write well/clearly/concisely. J school taught me to be objective, to present the many facets of an issue, to establish contacts, and to reach out for the other (possibly hidden) source. But NOT how to write.
Different newspapers have always had different political leanings. But there's SO LITTLE objectivity anymore. At some point it became all about headlines. Then as journalism moved from magazines and newspapers to TV/internet, unfortunately, those headlines transitioned to sound bites. The most "objective" news I have heard for years is on the radio, 2.5 min/half hour. Just the facts (because they don't have time for anything else LOL).
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 6, 2019 19:39:42 GMT -5
I have a friend who is in a position now called Information Designer. She does the drawings for a very large company for the manuals for their technical products. She complains all the time about the writing she encounters and how it gets worse all the time.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2019 20:13:47 GMT -5
For one thing, isn't it amazing that ALL these teachers live alone?! So they ALL have to pay ALL the rent on their own?! Because that's my take from the OP, since I couldn't access the article. OMG, don't ever become a teacher, because you will live alone FOREVER and NEVER EVER find anyone to share your rent, be it a roommate or a spouse LOL. (former print journalist who reincarnated as a teacher 10 years ago) Thanks for the laugh. I tried to avoid this as it seems to also be a forgotten lifestyle creep. My Mom always told stories and it wasn't until she was late 20s that she finally could afford to live in a Studio Apartment alone. She originally when she left home shared a bedroom with a roommate. In her 20s that was what a roommate meant (2 bedroom apt = 4 people, 1 bed apt = 2 people). Even as late as the 80s this was the cultural norm (Bosom Buddies on TV was 2 new college graduates struggling to start their career and pay rent). Then the 90s hit and shows like Friends showed waitresses affording a private bedroom in a huge apartment near central park. Everyone expected their own room. Now we seem to think we deserve our own apartment. On your same note, the median rent includes all places (studio, 1, 2, 3 bed rooms and even houses). So to finish off the bad reporting, the percent of income isn't even accurate for any of the age groups as a new graduate teacher should only need to find a studio apartment to rent.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 7, 2019 11:58:14 GMT -5
Ack, can't seem to shorten the OP and comment outside the original post. Arghh. Like many things one needs to know more about pay to judge effectively. PE teachers often make more than other teachers because they take on additional work like coaching sports after school. Out here in NJ, some districts call Grades 1 through 8, elementary school, which is different from my part of Illinois where elementary school ends at grade 5 and grades 6-8 are jr. high. There are also sometimes support staff, and they get paid less. There's a TV ad running in NJ about teachers and the high cost of healthcare. I'd have to see actual figures to know if its really that bad, but I did feel for the para-professional in the ad, as I know exactly what it is like to live on less than $25K in NJ. Especially if you don't get affordable housing. I'd love to pay just 50 to 60% for housing. If you are low income in non-subsidized housing, you are looking at 70-90% or more of your income going to housing. Actually, the opportunity to earn additional compensation extends well beyond PE teachers. First, there aren’t enough PE teachers to coach all of the activities in most school’s sports programs. I’ve seen sports coached by social studies teachers, English teachers, math teachers, and even a local minister. Beyond sports, teachers earn additional compensation by coaching speech teams, debate teams, or acting as advisors for robotic clubs or theater activities. There is also extra compensation to be earned by acting as the department chair for the subject you teach.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 7, 2019 14:54:42 GMT -5
Dnephew3 teaches math and is an assistant soccer coach in a different school district because the private school where he has been teaching doesn't have sports. Remember it is a residential school for kids with behavioral issues. Today is the last day of school. Wonder if they all get cut loose today since the program is ending.
In previous summers, he has worked in the business office at the school. This summer he will be doing manual labor working for his dad on the farm.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 7, 2019 14:57:57 GMT -5
I just gave it some thought for a minute and at our rather small school district, the PE teachers don't coach a single sport. All the coaching is done by other teachers (and in some cases folks who aren't teachers and just community members or retired teachers).
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 7, 2019 15:05:25 GMT -5
Here you can be certified to coach without being a teacher.
The biggest problem sports are having here is a lack of officials. It's not hard to get in to, but parents knowing the rules better than the officials are causing officials to quit or retire.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Jun 9, 2019 17:39:21 GMT -5
Here you can be certified to coach without being a teacher. The biggest problem sports are having here is a lack of officials. It's not hard to get in to, but parents knowing the rules better than the officials are causing officials to quit or retire. Hmm - seems like some knowledgeable parents are willing to criticize the efforts of the current officials, but aren’t willing to step up and become officials themselves. It’s easy to criticize from the sidelines. But, volunteers (I doubt that very many of the officials are in it for the money, so they are really volunteering their free time) don’t put up with criticism, justified or not, for very long. Maybe the rules experts need to be encouraged to volunteer their expertise to support the athletic programs their kids participate in, or be encouraged to keep their opinions about the quality of the officiating to themselves so that the kids programs don’t disappear due to lack of officials.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jun 9, 2019 18:56:59 GMT -5
Both the Athletic Associations for girls and boys sports say they are having problems. Games have been canceled because there are not enough officials.
My nephew has his officiating certification but says it's a no win situation. He much prefers coaching. He mostly officiates soccer in recreational leagues, which are not as intense as high school sports.
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