laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 4, 2019 14:18:41 GMT -5
I think Air Canada is right in this. She knew she wasn't entitled to an employee discount so she knew she was scamming, though she was wrong about how. link
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 14:26:48 GMT -5
is there a link missing?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 4, 2019 14:40:35 GMT -5
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 14:40:38 GMT -5
Does a "no fly" ban means she's banned from not flying which means she is forced to fly?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 4, 2019 14:42:46 GMT -5
Does a "no fly" ban means she's banned from not flying which means she is forced to fly? In this case it means she can't fly on Air Canada until she pays for her previous flights. That seems extremely sensible to me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 14:47:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure I think she's automatically supposed to know she's not allowed to have the tickets. Working from the premise that she thought she was getting employee discount tickets (instead of buying tickets from someone using a stolen credit card which is apparently what happened).
1. There's nothing about this which says she's scamming. She didn't hold herself out to be an employee. If there's any scam it would have been between the employee and the airline for selling their employee tickets when they shouldn't have. She has no agreement there or any fraud committed.
2. There are lots of places that allow employees to purchase product at a lower cost, they are then free to do what they want with that product. For example, I am permitted to buy tickets to some events at a deep discount rate through my employer...I can do what I want with them after I have them (and in fact I can't possibly use all 4 adult tickets to the same event on the same night...so there's no presupposition that I'm buying them all for myself).
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 4, 2019 14:49:34 GMT -5
If the person selling the tickets was an Air Canada employee and was selling his employee flight benefits such as Buddy Passes to strangers, the employee would be terminated for abuse. And well they should be. I don't know if the airline would make the stranger using a Buddy Pass pay back the airline though.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jun 4, 2019 14:54:38 GMT -5
Nope, no red flags there at all. Not one.
Buying deeply discounted tickets from some random internet person known only as "captain cool" is the epitome of a legitimate transaction. It is the standard by which all legitimate transactions are judged. No problem with this at all.
SMH.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 15:00:30 GMT -5
If the person selling the tickets was an Air Canada employee and was selling his employee flight benefits such as Buddy Passes to strangers, the employee would be terminated for abuse. And well they should be. I don't know if the airline would make the stranger using a Buddy Pass pay back the airline though. this is my take, too. I can understand putting her on the no-fly list as a warning to others thinking about doing the same thing. why would she ever think it was okay? *posted as I wave at the Torontoans from Pearson.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 15:04:07 GMT -5
Nope, no red flags there at all. Not one. Buying deeply discounted tickets from some random internet person known only as "captain cool" is the epitome of a legitimate transaction. It is the standard by which all legitimate transactions are judged. No problem with this at all. SMH. Essentially every P2P transaction would have all the same issues though. Nobody is going on craiglist, ebay, etc to pay full price for things they could easily order from a known business.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 15:09:32 GMT -5
Nope, no red flags there at all. Not one. Buying deeply discounted tickets from some random internet person known only as "captain cool" is the epitome of a legitimate transaction. It is the standard by which all legitimate transactions are judged. No problem with this at all. SMH. Essentially every P2P transaction would have all the same issues though. Nobody is going on craiglist, ebay, etc to pay full price for things they could easily order from a known business. for something like air travel, where you can be denied boarding if your name is misspelled on your ticket and doesn't match your ID, it doesn't make a lick of sense to buy from some random guy on the internet. I don't have much sympathy for her.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 15:13:33 GMT -5
Essentially every P2P transaction would have all the same issues though. Nobody is going on craiglist, ebay, etc to pay full price for things they could easily order from a known business. for something like air travel, where you can be denied boarding if your name is misspelled on your ticket and doesn't match your ID, it doesn't make a lick of sense to buy from some random guy on the internet. I don't have much sympathy for her. Nothing makes a lick of sense if you categorize it as buying "from some random guy on the internet".
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 15:20:29 GMT -5
for something like air travel, where you can be denied boarding if your name is misspelled on your ticket and doesn't match your ID, it doesn't make a lick of sense to buy from some random guy on the internet. I don't have much sympathy for her. Nothing makes a lick of sense if you categorize it as buying "from some random guy on the internet". if your widget doesn't work, you're out far less $ than an airline ticket. and you're also not really on the radar of people paying attention to who is flying these days. obviously this is my opinion, and you are free to disagree.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 15:32:56 GMT -5
Nothing makes a lick of sense if you categorize it as buying "from some random guy on the internet". if your widget doesn't work, you're out far less $ than an airline ticket. and you're also not really on the radar of people paying attention to who is flying these days. obviously this is my opinion, and you are free to disagree. That doesn't change whether it makes sense, it only changes the potential damages and risk exposure. But I don't think anyone who buys a widget online expects that if there's a problem, they're going to be held liable for multiples times the price they paid in order to pay the original maker full price. And the other thing is, the airline tickets DID work...multiple times...until they didn't down the road. So she went back to someone who had already supplied goods which seemed perfectly fine (and to your point on how tricky airline tickets are...you're right, but then once they work shouldn't we expect she took that as a sign that all was fine?).
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 15:39:18 GMT -5
if your widget doesn't work, you're out far less $ than an airline ticket. and you're also not really on the radar of people paying attention to who is flying these days. obviously this is my opinion, and you are free to disagree. That doesn't change whether it makes sense, it only changes the potential damages and risk exposure. But I don't think anyone who buys a widget online expects that if there's a problem, they're going to be held liable for multiples times the price they paid in order to pay the original maker full price. And the other thing is, the airline tickets DID work...multiple times...until they didn't down the road. So she went back to someone who had already supplied goods which seemed perfectly fine (and to your point on how tricky airline tickets are...you're right, but then once they work shouldn't we expect she took that as a sign that all was fine?). re: the bold - please see my first comment. I don't think this is right. re: the 2nd paragraph - this is where my lack of sympathy comes in. that shouldn't have worked in the first place, there is zero reasonable expectation that it ever should have. again, though - you are entirely free to disagree.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 4, 2019 15:48:48 GMT -5
That doesn't change whether it makes sense, it only changes the potential damages and risk exposure. But I don't think anyone who buys a widget online expects that if there's a problem, they're going to be held liable for multiples times the price they paid in order to pay the original maker full price. And the other thing is, the airline tickets DID work...multiple times...until they didn't down the road. So she went back to someone who had already supplied goods which seemed perfectly fine (and to your point on how tricky airline tickets are...you're right, but then once they work shouldn't we expect she took that as a sign that all was fine?). re: the bold - please see my first comment. I don't think this is right. re: the 2nd paragraph - this is where my lack of sympathy comes in. that shouldn't have worked in the first place, there is zero reasonable expectation that it ever should have. again, though - you are entirely free to disagree. If you bought tickets to an experience (theater, sporting event, concert) etc...and it turned out your tickets were completely valid in terms of the product itself, but were stolen or purchased with stolen money...would you believe it was reasonable to ban you from that experience going forward? The airline is saying she can fly once she pays it back, but we're both in agreement that we don't think that's right...so do you think it would be reasonable if you were out the cost of the tickets and also got banned from attending that experience going forward?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jun 4, 2019 15:52:08 GMT -5
I think it would be reasonable to expect them to ban her for the past actions, as well as the person selling the discounted tickets under false pretenses.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jun 4, 2019 18:49:51 GMT -5
I'm not sure I think she's automatically supposed to know she's not allowed to have the tickets. Working from the premise that she thought she was getting employee discount tickets (instead of buying tickets from someone using a stolen credit card which is apparently what happened). 1. There's nothing about this which says she's scamming. She didn't hold herself out to be an employee. If there's any scam it would have been between the employee and the airline for selling their employee tickets when they shouldn't have. She has no agreement there or any fraud committed. 2. There are lots of places that allow employees to purchase product at a lower cost, they are then free to do what they want with that product. For example, I am permitted to buy tickets to some events at a deep discount rate through my employer...I can do what I want with them after I have them (and in fact I can't possibly use all 4 adult tickets to the same event on the same night...so there's no presupposition that I'm buying them all for myself). But there's plenty that do have restrictions. Disney employees will get fired if you resale the tickets you get through employment. They can also get fired for selling products they buy with their discounts. (Fun fact, Disney can also ban annual passholders that resell what they buy with their discount too). I don't know about every airline, but the ones I've known people that work there have restrictions on the free/ discounted flights too.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jun 5, 2019 7:27:11 GMT -5
I think she was unwise to buy tickets in this way in the first place. However, the fact that it worked led her to believe she'd stumbled upon some great deal. I don't think she's a fraudster and I don't think Air Canada should be demanding payment.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 7:37:40 GMT -5
I'm not sure I think she's automatically supposed to know she's not allowed to have the tickets. Working from the premise that she thought she was getting employee discount tickets (instead of buying tickets from someone using a stolen credit card which is apparently what happened). 1. There's nothing about this which says she's scamming. She didn't hold herself out to be an employee. If there's any scam it would have been between the employee and the airline for selling their employee tickets when they shouldn't have. She has no agreement there or any fraud committed. 2. There are lots of places that allow employees to purchase product at a lower cost, they are then free to do what they want with that product. For example, I am permitted to buy tickets to some events at a deep discount rate through my employer...I can do what I want with them after I have them (and in fact I can't possibly use all 4 adult tickets to the same event on the same night...so there's no presupposition that I'm buying them all for myself). But there's plenty that do have restrictions. Disney employees will get fired if you resale the tickets you get through employment. They can also get fired for selling products they buy with their discounts. (Fun fact, Disney can also ban annual passholders that resell what they buy with their discount too). I don't know about every airline, but the ones I've known people that work there have restrictions on the free/ discounted flights too. There are plenty with restrictions. But those restrictions are between employee and employer. I don't expect the average citizen to go around figuring out what the employer/employee agreements are for every company's product they might purchase. This is all very specific to the idea that "she thought it was an employee scam, so she has blame for thinking she was scamming them" (even though the ultimate outcome was that it wasn't an employee scam at all). I don't think it's incumbent upon individuals to try to figure out whether employees are acting within the confines of their employment agreements or not. That's unreasonable, and given that many employees at many companies have freedom to do this kind of thing...it's reasonable for individuals to say "I don't know, it might be ok or it might not be ok, there's no way for me to know that really".
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 7:38:09 GMT -5
I think she was unwise to buy tickets in this way in the first place. However, the fact that it worked led her to believe she'd stumbled upon some great deal. I don't think she's a fraudster and I don't think Air Canada should be demanding payment. Do you think they should put her on their no-fly list?
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jun 5, 2019 8:27:19 GMT -5
hoops902 no, I don't think they should. Admittedly, I have only read that one article but I got the impression that she was very naive. I also got the impression that Air Canada is extremely pissed that they were defrauded. I just don't think she was the one responsible for the fraud.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 5, 2019 8:42:04 GMT -5
I think she was unwise to buy tickets in this way in the first place. However, the fact that it worked led her to believe she'd stumbled upon some great deal. I don't think she's a fraudster and I don't think Air Canada should be demanding payment. The fact that she got away with it doesn't absolve her of guilt. To me the best comparison is buying a TV in a bar, there is no way you don't know it's stolen.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 8:56:46 GMT -5
I think she was unwise to buy tickets in this way in the first place. However, the fact that it worked led her to believe she'd stumbled upon some great deal. I don't think she's a fraudster and I don't think Air Canada should be demanding payment. The fact that she got away with it doesn't absolve her of guilt. To me the best comparison is buying a TV in a bar, there is no way you don't know it's stolen. She didn't buy it in a bar, she bought it online. Is everything being sold online (P2P like in this case) stolen?
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Jun 5, 2019 9:14:03 GMT -5
I think she was unwise to buy tickets in this way in the first place. However, the fact that it worked led her to believe she'd stumbled upon some great deal. I don't think she's a fraudster and I don't think Air Canada should be demanding payment. The fact that she got away with it doesn't absolve her of guilt. To me the best comparison is buying a TV in a bar, there is no way you don't know it's stolen. That's the comparison made by Air Canada. I disagree. Would I suspect it was an online scam? Yes, I would. That doesn't mean this woman suspected.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 5, 2019 9:40:29 GMT -5
The fact that she got away with it doesn't absolve her of guilt. To me the best comparison is buying a TV in a bar, there is no way you don't know it's stolen. She didn't buy it in a bar, she bought it online. Is everything being sold online (P2P like in this case) stolen? Not everything, but plane tickets yes. Plane tickets are not the kind of thing you sell because you're getting new ones. Everyone knows they are highly regulated. She knew it was not legit and the fact that she got away with it a few times does not change that. We are each just repeating what we said before. I don't think I want to just keep going back and forth like this. Dis so, did not, did so etc
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 5, 2019 9:41:27 GMT -5
The fact that she got away with it doesn't absolve her of guilt. To me the best comparison is buying a TV in a bar, there is no way you don't know it's stolen. That's the comparison made by Air Canada. I disagree. Would I suspect it was an online scam? Yes, I would. That doesn't mean this woman suspected. She not only knew it was a scam, she went online looking for it. No one thinks Cool guy is a legit ticket vendor.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jun 5, 2019 9:46:01 GMT -5
That's the comparison made by Air Canada. I disagree. Would I suspect it was an online scam? Yes, I would. That doesn't mean this woman suspected. She not only knew it was a scam, she went online looking for it. No one thinks Cool guy is a legit ticket vendor. So basically your entire argument comes down to "I'm a mind reader, I know what people knew or didn't know". Why can't she think "cool guy" is an airline employee who is looking to sell employee discount tickets he is allowed to purchase as an employee and do what he likes with it?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Jun 5, 2019 10:03:58 GMT -5
She not only knew it was a scam, she went online looking for it. No one thinks Cool guy is a legit ticket vendor. So basically your entire argument comes down to "I'm a mind reader, I know what people knew or didn't know". Why can't she think "cool guy" is an airline employee who is looking to sell employee discount tickets he is allowed to purchase as an employee and do what he likes with it? Because it is not reasonable to believe that.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 5, 2019 10:24:17 GMT -5
I have had coworkers for years who have purchased expensive airline tickets through consolidators, most of these are to India but a few have been to both China and Japan as well. So the fact that someone offers cheaper airline seats, even though it is through this sort of service is not unusual.
The last few years, many of the airline tickets that I have purchased have been through consolidators as well. The fares have been around 50% off published fares, and have been over a bunch of different airlines. The way the woman explained it to me is that the fares are discounted because they know that the seats are not going to get filled, the flights are not popular ones. This service looks only at international flights, and for business class.
I think that Air Canada is going after the wrong person. If one of their employees is selling their company benefit as a side business, then they need to cut that service off.....not go after the customer. The customer does not know the rules that employee discounted flights have to operate under.
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