WWYD - settling Mom's estate

[Opti]

I'm looking for opinions and information. As many know, My Mom died in January of 2018. The estate is finally close to settled and apparently the sticky bit according to POA sis, is me and my other sib agreeing on what she should be paid as executor.


In January of 2018 when I flew out for the memorial service, POA Sis, lets call her POAS for short, said the estate would take at least a year to settle. She also said that Mom's prior live in BF was trying to get money from the estate.

I never found out what happened to that. I have never seen numbers or docs on what the estate consists of, what lawyers were used, what they were paid, etc. Basically I have been told nothing except what POAS wants me to know. My other sib is not a financial mind, plus being the youngest, sometimes just goes along with what POAS says.

I don't want to sign off on paying her until I know what she actually did. Whether it was reasonable and customary, whether she went above & beyond, or whether now she's pushing it because she feels sorry for herself and wants this tied up now. She is easily the richest of the three of us. I was prior to my layoff from Pharma in 2003, and I probably am the poorest now. When I ball parked what the estate might be, I was guessing around $60 to $70K after lawyer fees, etc. and I admit I hoped that included the executor overhead. 

Suggestions? This is an Illinois estate.

[Bluerobin]

Generally, the state sets a percentage limit for the executor.  Also, the county can generally provide you with a copy of the will if sis has not.  Dig a little deeper.

[Opti]

May 25, 2019 14:37:46 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Generally, the state sets a percentage limit for the executor.  Also, the county can generally provide you with a copy of the will if sis has not.  Dig a little deeper.

So I could call the county and get copies of what was filed so far?

FWIW, she called today and I answered. We didn't speak long because I am out sick from work (4 weeks) and my car doesn't sound fully repaired. (Total manual transmission replacement ) I didn't have time for her nonsense of I want you to reply by email now, because I want it now. 


I mentioned snail mail always gets to me, when she complained about getting me by phone or email. (I work 6 days a week, at not always the same time, adjust POAS, adjust. Not all of us get to live a life with a normal 5 day work week that's well paid so we can schedule in lots of other stuff.)

[Opti]

Found the county website. Will call on Tuesday unless other things take priority such as weird noise from car and finishing docs for work. Just realized I forgot to bring the latest note to the library to be scanned.  

[Deleted]

Executors are required to file an inventory of the estate and that should be public information in addition to the will.

Here's an article on Illinois; they have no standard rates although $50/hour is considered reasonable.  I hope your sister kept good records.

info.legalzoom.com/percentage-executor-illinois-26107.html

[Opti]

May 25, 2019 15:05:28 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Executors are required to file an inventory of the estate and that should be public information in addition to the will.

Here's an article on Illinois; they have no standard rates although $50/hour is considered reasonable.  I hope your sister kept good records.

info.legalzoom.com/percentage-executor-illinois-26107.html

I don't know that she did keep good records. She's certainly capable of it, but she has shared little. Both on today's phone call and when I arrived home she went on and on about how my other sib wanted to pay her for the time she spent balancing Mom's checkbook and doing her taxes over the last ten years. (Sorry luv, that's a choice, and you could have been paid for it then perhaps if you had asked. I think sib denied saying something like that when I was back in 1/2018, but I recognize fishing when I hear it.)

Thanks for the link. At least for the first part of the settlement I knew which three pieces were not under probate - her teacher's pension, a small insurance policy, and something else. 

Its probably the hot day in Illinois now and she probably wants this settled b4 her family's vacay. Sorry luv, not really. Maybe next time you'll listen when I tell you what little I wanted to do in Mom's service instead of making it basically about your immediate family and me and other sib as living bookends. (Yes I still carry some resentment ...  )

[Deleted]

I'm not a lawyer, but when my aunt in Florida died and her sister (my aunt) became executor, she paid herself a percentage that the court approved.  I had no input into that number.  I guess if I hadn't signed off on it, I would have had to pay my own legal expenses to contest it.  If there isn't a lot of money and what there is has to be split 3 ways, think about how much you want to argue.

Know that there were probably a lot of expenses if there was a house to sell, etc.  The utilities have to stay on, etc.  There are also the executor's expenses.  Does she live there?  Did she stay in the house when she went?  Etc.  These are not part of the executor's "fee."   These are costs of settling the estate, and they can be surprisingly substantial.  You should get a final accounting, though, when you get the paperwork to sign off on.  Can you tell her that you want to see that now so that there aren't any surprises.  

I'd simply say that I disagree about paying for things she did before your mom died.  Smile and say, "But you did those out of love, didn't you?  Why would you expect reimbursement now?  You weren't an employee."  She will get the message.  

Please try to let go of the pain of the funeral, etc.  The resentment hurts you, not them.

[Tennesseer]

May 25, 2019 14:54:55 GMT -5 Opti said:

Found the county website. Will call on Tuesday unless other things take priority such as weird noise from car and finishing docs for work. Just realized I forgot to bring the latest note to the library to be scanned.  

See if your sister is willing to scan the will and send it to you via email as a PDF file.

[Lizard Queen]

May 25, 2019 14:48:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

May 25, 2019 14:37:46 GMT -5 Bluerobin said:

Generally, the state sets a percentage limit for the executor.  Also, the county can generally provide you with a copy of the will if sis has not.  Dig a little deeper.

So I could call the county and get copies of what was filed so far?

FWIW, she called today and I answered. We didn't speak long because I am out sick from work (4 weeks) and my car doesn't sound fully repaired. (Total manual transmission replacement ) I didn't have time for her nonsense of I want you to reply by email now, because I want it now. 


I mentioned snail mail always gets to me, when she complained about getting me by phone or email. (I work 6 days a week, at not always the same time, adjust POAS, adjust. Not all of us get to live a life with a normal 5 day work week that's well paid so we can schedule in lots of other stuff.)

You want her to send you snail mail instead of email, but she's the one with the nonsense?

[jitterbug]

I've been the executor of an estate and it's a lot of time and running around and I do feel that those doing the work should get paid something for those efforts!  I didn't collect a fee then, but I would take a reasonable fee if I did it again.  Other than, my husband will be the executor of his parents estate someday and I do admit that his sister is doing the lion's share NOW, while they need care, so it's probably only fair he does his part AFTER for no wages, too.

[bookkeeper]

My father died a few years ago.  Our parents each have a trust due to their real estate holdings.  My oldest brother is the trustee and I encouraged him to take a salary equal to one year's wages at his self employment job.  He was entitled to two percent of the assets of the trust by state law.  He thought that seemed like a high number, but after a year and a half passed, and he was still working on the estate most days, he definitely earned the money.  And let's remember that the trustee/executor fee is unearned income and the IRS will take their percentage of the amount paid.


Working on the trust, we had to arrive at a trustee's salary/fee at the time we prepared the IRS filing for the trust.  Since information in a trust is confidential and not filed at the court house, only the people named in the trust documents knew about the assets and expenses of the trust.  

Wills and probate are a different animal, those records are open to review.  Trust documents are not filed with anyone other than the IRS, and not available to the public.

[happyhoix]

When my older sister died, I was the executor and didn't get an executor fee. When my mother died, I had been mom's financial POA and my older sister had been mom's healthcare POA, but little sister was the executor per the will, and I believe she also did it without a fee, but by that point, Mom's estate was simple, just one annuity and one checking account, she'd been living in a nursing home for 5 years so no car and no house to sell. It was only about 80K by the time she died.  Older sister's estate was a lot more complicated (house to sell, several junked cars to get hauled off the property, bunch of bills to track down and pay) but her estate was also small, about 150K, and all the money was going to my mother (who was already in a nursing home and needed the money) so I never considered taking a fee for the work I did.

I remember that the other siblings had to sign off on the estate before it could be executed. There is also a document that has to be completed showing all the money the executor paid out, and who it was paid out to, as well as all the money that was in the estate, and where it came from. This had to be put together, filed with the court for review and approval before the estate could be dispensed. So you should be able to ask your POA sibling to send you the total incoming and outgoing expenses for the state (which should show how much she was paid as executor) before you agree to sign it.

[dannylion]

When my father passed away, I was the executor and sole heir of his estate.  When I looked into all that would be required to settle the estate, file all the paperwork, deal with the valuation and taxes, etc., I found that it was clearly going to be a lot of work with a lot of deadlines (and pitfalls for making errors), so I hired an attorney to settle the estate.  He charged $15,000 for settling an estate of about 1.5 million.  Worth every penny.  Settling an estate is a pain in the butt and whoever does it (and gets it done right) deserves compensation.  

Whether helping Mom with some ADLs prior to her passing should be compensated is going to depend on family circumstances and expectations.  

The loss of a loved one can create all kinds of ripples in the family dynamic.  Opti, I hope you and your family can come to an agreement you are all comfortable with.  

[plugginaway22]

My DH settled his Father's estate many years ago.  It took over a year (auctioned contents of home and then privately sold home).  His 3 siblings did nothing but contact him every few months to ask when it would be 'over', ie:  check writing time.  DH was the sole beneficiary on one of the life insurance policies so he did not charge any fees for what he did.  He never knew why his Father had the policy or why it was just him named, and I think he felt some guilt over that.

[Deleted]

As executor and beneficiary of an estate (FIL) DH, estate attorney, and estate CPA provided full written documentation of all revenues and expenses of the estate to all heirs.  DH did not claim any executor fee even though we incurred costs.  Written documentation is just the right way to go for any honest and ethical executor/executrix.

[countrygirl2]

I was only child for mom, everything had been sold and we spent her last dollars on the funeral, she was in assisted living and a nursing home for a long time.  She had left me 25 acres years before which I just sold when we bought this house.  It amounted to about $160k when all was said and done. If she had lived longer I would have had to sell it to pay for her care, she was in her 80's.

Hubs mom will be pretty much the same. His dad something like 20 years before had put their house and her moms tiny farm and house in he and his brothers name.  We didn't know until we were going to buy it from her and found the paperwork, so we bought out the brother.  She has $10k from VA backpay we dip into periodically.  So far SS and her VA pension I found and got started, took about a year and a half as she was running out of money, is paying for her assisted living and her insurance, that's a godsend. Her care for the home and supplement is running close  to $40k a year.  It eats up an estate fast, she has been in one since about 2014. Her next step will be a nursing home and SS and Medicaid will pay for it, she is 92. If it quits covering it, we will have to start paying money in for her, I expect her to live to 100.

This is how working people end up without big estates, living facilities get most everything they worked for.

[Deleted]

May 27, 2019 7:51:13 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

This is how working people end up without big estates, living facilities get most everything they worked for.

And, IMO, this is how it SHOULD work.  At least once a day I get "Suggested posts" in my FaceBook feed for attorneys and financial advisors who want to show me how to make sure that my money goes to my heirs instead of to nursing homes.  I don't get this at all.  I assume they want to show me how to shelter my assets so that I qualify for Medicaid nursing homes when/if the time comes.  I really hate that.  It's one thing to qualify for Medicaid LTC because you've worked hard all your life but never made much, or had some bad breaks (extended periods of unemployment, large uninsured medical bills).  It's another to deed your house over to your kids, set up an irrevocable trust, deliberately spend down and give away your assets, etc.  I knew one woman who was a senior VP at a bank and took scuba-diving vacations to the Caribbean with her husband and she'd already deeded the house to their kids with this strategy in mind.  I wanted to smack her.

DS is my only heir.  He knows that if I need LTC that's my first priority and, although he's likely to be left something because I've been conservative in my withdrawals, there's no guarantee.  The trade-off: he and DDIL won't be burned out by trying to tend to me if I become senile or incontinent.   

Sorry for the tangent, but I feel very strongly about this.

[countrygirl2]

I suppose in a way FIL did that, but if we have to we will use the money if we sell those 2 to continue paying for her if needed.  Or we get almost $18k rents from our investment of $52k in the 2 houses, mobile, and 10 acres, and we can use some of that to help pay for her if needed.  I cannot physically nor mentally do it.  That leaves hubs, I, and DD.  We do have the rentals set up in an LLC so those can go to son.  But everything else is subject to being used for us.  I am thinking instead of half for DD in the will to just give to her trust $100k as the state will take her money anyway and we need money to care for us. That should cover clothing, computers, furniture, and whatever she is able to have for her.  We have 3 of us to think about.  I think hubs will live quite awhile, probably in the condition of his mom.  DD without care not to many years.  Me, don't know, may drop over tomorrow, I don't see me having a long life like them.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

It is a fair question to ask to see the final accounting of the estate BEFORE you agree to an executor’s fee. You can simply ask. Try, and I know emotions can run high during these times, to ask without animosity or emotion. Take the high road. Meet her halfway and ask her to email it to you. Tell her you’ll want a few days to review it. Consider what work she might have reasonably done to settle the estate. But, an executor’s fee is for settling the estate, NOT for paying for services while the deceased was alive. You and younger sis might consider giving POAS a small stipend from your respective inheritances for the work she did while your mother was alive, or you might not give such a stipend. Either way, the executor fee is ONLY for services rendered to settle the estate.

Hugs. If it any consolation, settling a parent’s estate is often a minefield for many families.

[Opti]

May 25, 2019 20:08:27 GMT -5 Lizard Queen said:

May 25, 2019 14:48:24 GMT -5 Opti said:

So I could call the county and get copies of what was filed so far?

FWIW, she called today and I answered. We didn't speak long because I am out sick from work (4 weeks) and my car doesn't sound fully repaired. (Total manual transmission replacement ) I didn't have time for her nonsense of I want you to reply by email now, because I want it now. 


I mentioned snail mail always gets to me, when she complained about getting me by phone or email. (I work 6 days a week, at not always the same time, adjust POAS, adjust. Not all of us get to live a life with a normal 5 day work week that's well paid so we can schedule in lots of other stuff.)

You want her to send you snail mail instead of email, but she's the one with the nonsense?

Yes. Mainly because I am out sick from work and have no working computer at home. My telephone provider had been stopping service repairs, so when I could access the internet from home, this website was one of two things I could do.
My car is not completely OK, and you may have noticed I don't post very often anymore.

Snail mail would have been faster. Email would have been OK had I been working, but not fast either as we aren't supposed to use personal email at all, I have no cell phone due to finances, and I check perhaps once a week on the weekend. The library is a drive. I am only here today because I have things I need to send to work.

[Opti]

May 27, 2019 13:57:33 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

It is a fair question to ask to see the final accounting of the estate BEFORE you agree to an executor’s fee. You can simply ask. Try, and I know emotions can run high during these times, to ask without animosity or emotion. Take the high road. Meet her halfway and ask her to email it to you. Tell her you’ll want a few days to review it. Consider what work she might have reasonably done to settle the estate. But, an executor’s fee is for settling the estate, NOT for paying for services while the deceased was alive. You and younger sis might consider giving POAS a small stipend from your respective inheritances for the work she did while your mother was alive, or you might not give such a stipend. Either way, the executor fee is ONLY for services rendered to settle the estate.

Hugs. If it any consolation, settling a parent’s estate is often a minefield for many families.

Turns out she just sent me some spreadsheets via email just b4 I started this thread. I will see if I can print them here at the library. Looks like she is asking for 4% and the estate is waiting on Mom's 2018 Federal tax refund. I think there is something else, but that's for another day. I'm fading and I want to leave before the stormy weather hits. (5% is the max fee. I doubt I will quibble on that.)

[Opti]

May 27, 2019 8:51:49 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

May 27, 2019 7:51:13 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

This is how working people end up without big estates, living facilities get most everything they worked for.

And, IMO, this is how it SHOULD work.  At least once a day I get "Suggested posts" in my FaceBook feed for attorneys and financial advisors who want to show me how to make sure that my money goes to my heirs instead of to nursing homes.  I don't get this at all.  I assume they want to show me how to shelter my assets so that I qualify for Medicaid nursing homes when/if the time comes.  I really hate that.  It's one thing to qualify for Medicaid LTC because you've worked hard all your life but never made much, or had some bad breaks (extended periods of unemployment, large uninsured medical bills).  It's another to deed your house over to your kids, set up an irrevocable trust, deliberately spend down and give away your assets, etc.  I knew one woman who was a senior VP at a bank and took scuba-diving vacations to the Caribbean with her husband and she'd already deeded the house to their kids with this strategy in mind.  I wanted to smack her.

DS is my only heir.  He knows that if I need LTC that's my first priority and, although he's likely to be left something because I've been conservative in my withdrawals, there's no guarantee.  The trade-off: he and DDIL won't be burned out by trying to tend to me if I become senile or incontinent.   

Sorry for the tangent, but I feel very strongly about this.

I personally did not care about Mom's estate until after she passed. Her money should be used for her care. I never asked for accounting when POAS did things like hire someone to feed her, which I OK'd. Alzheimer's is tough. Its good when folks can be made as comfortable as possible.

I'd want to smack her too. I have stories, but not today.

[Opti]

Ack, I am reading the docs forwarded from the lawyer on 5/21 commenting about closing on 5/20!
Looks like they are trying to finish up by 5/30!

Would have been nice to lead with that and give me a heads up. Since I've been in this healthcare co, owners since 2014, I've usually been quite sick during this time period.    I really hate when lack of planning and lack of notification is supposed to translate to emergency on my part. This lawyer is not flat fee, so it will hurt me too, to wait.



 x 20.

[raeoflyte]

You're frustrated that you're not more in the loop with what is happening, but you also have a lot of reasons that you're difficult to communicate with.  No phone, no email, off work because you're sick, and you've said you're usually sick this time of year.  How much could you have taken on if you had been the executor?  How often have you mailed her a letter to communicate?  

I'm sorry about your mom.  I'd ask for the accounting, but settle as quickly as possible and try not to let this damage what is left of your family relationships.  I hope the money helps set you up for a better future.  

[Value Buy]

IMO, a $70,000 estate should not be that hard to finish up, but the time frame seems right regardless since all bills owed must be properly taken care of, etc.
I do feel your sister taking 4% might be a little high due to the small dollar number of the estate, as I cannot see that many obstacles or closing of accounts taking that much effort on her part.
If you were not actively involved in the money portion while your mom was alive, I suggest now is not the time to show up as I am sure your sister is not interested in someone looking over her shoulder questioning everything. Unless yo feel she is cheating you, let it play out as is.
If  you think you are being short changed, now is the time for a road trip and answers.

[raeoflyte]

May 29, 2019 15:15:33 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

IMO, a $70,000 estate should not be that hard to finish up, but the time frame seems right regardless since all bills owed must be properly taken care of, etc.
I do feel your sister taking 4% might be a little high due to the small dollar number of the estate, as I cannot see that many obstacles or closing of accounts taking that much effort on her part.
If you were not actively involved in the money portion while your mom was alive, I suggest now is not the time to show up as I am sure your sister is not interested in someone looking over her shoulder questioning everything. Unless yo feel she is cheating you, let it play out as is.
If  you think you are being short changed, now is the time for a road trip and answers.

At less than $3k I can't say that is taking too much.  At $50 an hour rate that's assuming 56 hours of work and I can't imagine any estate with a house to sell taking up less than that.  My guess is the hours are quite a bit higher.  Everything takes forever, nothing comes in the mail, you have to call back, re-explain the situation, wait again for something to come in the mail, etc.  

[hoops902]

May 29, 2019 15:15:33 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

IMO, a $70,000 estate should not be that hard to finish up, but the time frame seems right regardless since all bills owed must be properly taken care of, etc.
I do feel your sister taking 4% might be a little high due to the small dollar number of the estate, as I cannot see that many obstacles or closing of accounts taking that much effort on her part.
If you were not actively involved in the money portion while your mom was alive, I suggest now is not the time to show up as I am sure your sister is not interested in someone looking over her shoulder questioning everything. Unless yo feel she is cheating you, let it play out as is.
If  you think you are being short changed, now is the time for a road trip and answers.

I would have said at the lower dollar amounts a higher % is warranted.  It's less overall money (I don't love the % thing to begin with here honestly...if it takes me X hours to close an estate worth $50k and still X hours to close an estate worth $100k...does it really matter what the value of the estate is in regards to the work I did?).  I tend to want to look at the $ value...at 4% for a $70k estate...we're talking $2800.  To me, that seems more than reasonable.

Totally agree on your point about not all of a sudden showing up to look over the shoulder of the person who may have managed the assets both before and after the death unless you feel there is some kind of fraud going on.  Particularly if those questions focus more on "explain to me how closing an estate works" and not "I disagree with what you've done here".  

[swamp]

executors commissions are statutory.  Not a hill to die on. 

they have to give you an accounting where you either sign a release or go to court to approve/disapprove. 

[Bonny]

May 29, 2019 21:57:04 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

May 29, 2019 15:15:33 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

IMO, a $70,000 estate should not be that hard to finish up, but the time frame seems right regardless since all bills owed must be properly taken care of, etc.
I do feel your sister taking 4% might be a little high due to the small dollar number of the estate, as I cannot see that many obstacles or closing of accounts taking that much effort on her part.
If you were not actively involved in the money portion while your mom was alive, I suggest now is not the time to show up as I am sure your sister is not interested in someone looking over her shoulder questioning everything. Unless yo feel she is cheating you, let it play out as is.
If  you think you are being short changed, now is the time for a road trip and answers.

At less than $3k I can't say that is taking too much.  At $50 an hour rate that's assuming 56 hours of work and I can't imagine any estate with a house to sell taking up less than that.  My guess is the hours are quite a bit higher.  Everything takes forever, nothing comes in the mail, you have to call back, re-explain the situation, wait again for something to come in the mail, etc.  

And to pile on , Sister is also grieving.

[cktc]

May 30, 2019 9:54:44 GMT -5 Bonny said:

May 29, 2019 21:57:04 GMT -5 raeoflyte said:

At less than $3k I can't say that is taking too much.  At $50 an hour rate that's assuming 56 hours of work and I can't imagine any estate with a house to sell taking up less than that.  My guess is the hours are quite a bit higher.  Everything takes forever, nothing comes in the mail, you have to call back, re-explain the situation, wait again for something to come in the mail, etc.  

And to pile on , Sister is also grieving.

And a third of that 4% is coming from her share of the inheritance, so it's only $1900 more than she would otherwise get.