OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on May 16, 2019 9:24:20 GMT -5
Not only should We distribute the wealth,, We now are lowering the bar for entrance exams for less intelligent students.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 16, 2019 9:26:03 GMT -5
Not only should We distribute the wealth,, We now are lowering the bar for entrance exams for less intelligent students. The SAT measures how well you take a test, not how smart you are. It also measures whether or not your parents can pay for a prep class. Not that I think this is a good idea, but please don't say that economically disadvantaged kids are not as smart.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on May 16, 2019 13:26:10 GMT -5
I was going to comment but swamp already said what I intended to say
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oped
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Post by oped on May 16, 2019 15:50:56 GMT -5
I think it’s important comparative info.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 16, 2019 21:37:31 GMT -5
I can't tell from the commentary whether the information in the environmental context dashboard (minus the score) is new or not. If it's new, it's quite overdue.
I have some reservations regarding the score though. It bugs me a bit that it is not provided to the student and I'm confused regarding where some of the data is coming from. Some of the data is publicly available but some of it appears to have been reported by either the high school or the student.
I also can't help but notice that the dashboard gives only a rough estimation of how the student stands among other students at their high school who also took the test. Quartiles don't say much and if memory serves me, 30+ years ago when I took the test, information regarding how a student scored relative to other students who took the test was reported to the student in percentiles. (I suspect that at that time, they only had the capacity to calculate the percentiles for each sitting of the test.) I really like the idea of putting AP availability information on something that is going into a student's application instead of depending on the college or university to look it up. In the example given, relatively few students took APs, not many appeared to be available based on the average number taken (it's not clear if this is the average number taken by students who take any APs or the average number of APs taken by all students, I suspect that it is the former), and AP scores tended to be abysmal.
I almost wonder whether the decision not to provide the dashboard and scores to students has less to do with keeping the scoring algorithm secret than we might imagine. Schools might not want some of that data in those charts disseminated too widely either.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 7:16:39 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%.
In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%.
They'll have a couple more positions to fill, to take care of the adversity admissions.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 17, 2019 7:52:36 GMT -5
I’d guess admissions officers could assimilate this new information... actually it might ease their job as it provides information they might otherwise have to gather to consider.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 17, 2019 7:56:46 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. They'll have a couple more positions to fill, to take care of the adversity admissions. College is too expensive, we need for it to be free for all walks of life, not just rich people. In the 50s a great many people didn’t graduate high school. And we didn’t have IDEA and FAPE... And even then, increase in public school students is not the same as increase in college attending students...
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 17, 2019 8:44:50 GMT -5
I’d guess admissions officers could assimilate this new information... actually it might ease their job as it provides information they might otherwise have to gather to consider. A cynic might say that by boiling all that information down to a score, they are blatantly inviting schools to set different SAT cutoffs for students with different adversity scores. I know that I am being inconsistent, but that's what boiling all that data down to a score looks like to me. I'm both thrilled that all that high school data is being presented to colleges and universities in a way that they cannot ignore and pretty hard-nosed about why a score was calculated for them.
Here's an even more cynical thought -- what are the odds that colleges and universities will have more than two different categories of adversity scores? Methinks that the score is most likely to create "advantaged" and "disadvantaged" cutoff points. Everything that I know about how SAT scores correlate with family income and family income correlates with graduation leads me toward the conclusion that colleges will do this.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 17, 2019 8:52:24 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. ... I am interested in where your numbers came from.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on May 17, 2019 8:54:05 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. ... I am interested in where your numbers came from. His ass.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on May 17, 2019 9:19:47 GMT -5
I think it is just a way for the company that runs SAT to claim that they are doing something to help disadvantaged students.
Most competitive schools already have ways for compensating for this. There are high school profiles that they use to help assess some of these factors already. If you go to a school that only offers a few AP classes, then they use that to see if you took what was available, not necessarily that you have as many as other students.
The adversity score is going to be based on your address and your high school. All the data is already available, it may just put it in a easier place for admissions officers
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 12:21:07 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. ... I am interested in where your numbers came from. Executive summary, just below the initial table of contents. Thanks for the educated inquiry. files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED536674.pdf
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 12:28:59 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. They'll have a couple more positions to fill, to take care of the adversity admissions. College is too expensive, we need for it to be free for all walks of life, not just rich people. In the 50s a great many people didn’t graduate high school. And we didn’t have IDEA and FAPE... And even then, increase in public school students is not the same as increase in college attending students... It was a poke at staffing. Not really aimed at colleges. More of noting that yet more work, for possibly more staff. I should of just left that line out. I've already deleted it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 12:32:10 GMT -5
I’d guess admissions officers could assimilate this new information... actually it might ease their job as it provides information they might otherwise have to gather to consider. Yes it would. Didn't consider that aspect, as I wasn't an educator, nor administrator.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 17, 2019 15:59:33 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. ... Thank you for provide the link so we could see that actually: Between fiscal year (FY) 1950 and FY 2009, the number of K-12 public school students in the United States increased by 96 percent while the number of full-time equivalent (FTE) school employees grew 386 percent. Public schools grew staffing at a rate four times faster than the increase in students over that time period. Not 700%.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on May 17, 2019 16:53:26 GMT -5
More cynicism. Before this score existed, schools that wanted to claim that they served disadvantaged students relied heavily on what percentage of their students qualified for Pell grants. Now the schools have another metric generated by a third party on which to base those claims.
What I'm trying to point out here is that a whole lot of folks with an adversity score over 50 may be nowhere near poor enough to qualify for a Pell grant but can now be classified as disadvantaged by an institution that wants to blow its own horn.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 11:30:20 GMT -5
Since 1950 through 2009, the number of public school students has increased by 96%. In the same timeframe, public schools staff has increased by a little over 700%. ... Thank you for provide the link so we could see that actually: Between fiscal year (FY) 1950 and FY 2009, the number of K-12 public school students in the United States increased by 96 percent while the number of full-time equivalent (FTE) school employees grew 386 percent. Public schools grew staffing at a rate four times faster than the increase in students over that time period. Not 700%. I got the actually from his own graph. Anybody can see it. Go to the link, scroll down just a little bit. You're seem to be answering like I have a stance on this, I don't. Maybe you would like to offer something ? Why do you think the growing disparity between the students/staff exists ? Why do we need 4 times the staff ? Qualifications of the staff might be one answer. Public service unions another. What do you think ?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 11:35:33 GMT -5
Thank you for provide the link so we could see that actually: Between fiscal year (FY) 1950 and FY 2009, the number of K-12 public school students in the United States increased by 96 percent while the number of full-time equivalent (FTE) school employees grew 386 percent. Public schools grew staffing at a rate four times faster than the increase in students over that time period. Not 700%. I got the actually from his own graph. Anybody can see it. Go to the link, scroll down just a little bit. ... Yes, there is a pretty little graph that as 700+% on it. I read, and quoted, words that explain what is in the picture that you looked at. I encourage you to go to your link, read all the words, and engage your brain to process the information that is there.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 11:44:34 GMT -5
I got the actually from his own graph. Anybody can see it. Go to the link, scroll down just a little bit. ... Yes, there is a pretty little graph that as 700+% on it. I read, and quoted, words that explain what is in the picture that you looked at. I encourage you to go to your link, read all the words, and engage your brain to process the information that is there. Like you processed that I was agreeing with your 4x number, in the rest of my post, you seemed to have left out, and you came up with valid reasons for this 400% increase. Maybe I need to ask 4 educators in a small room session, to get some type of answer. That seems to be the the qualification level. Since at least 2009.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 11:44:45 GMT -5
Thank you for provide the link so we could see that actually: Between fiscal year (FY) 1950 and FY 2009, the number of K-12 public school students in the United States increased by 96 percent while the number of full-time equivalent (FTE) school employees grew 386 percent. Public schools grew staffing at a rate four times faster than the increase in students over that time period. ... Maybe you would like to offer something ? Why do you think the growing disparity between the students/staff exists ? Why do we need 4 times the staff ? ... What do you think ? How about the question being: Why has the percentage of teachers/non-teacher staff grown at a rate higher than the growth of student population? 1) The ratio was too low to begin with. 2) Introduction of higher needs special education students into public schools instead of institutionalizing them and court ordered services for them. 3) Court ordered respect of the civil rights of students in regards to discipline.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 11:58:38 GMT -5
How about the question being: Why has the percentage of teachers/non-teacher staff grown at a rate higher than the growth of student population? 1) The ratio was too low to begin with. 2) Introduction of higher needs special education students into public schools instead of institutionalizing them and court ordered services for them. 3) Court ordered respect of the civil rights of students in regards to discipline. Your question suggestion is all covered under "growing disparity". I can see the point of the ratio being too low to start with, but not that low to account. The other two could be easily covered by existing staff. I don't think you need 4x the staff for the % of students in that classification.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on May 18, 2019 12:04:46 GMT -5
Not only should We distribute the wealth,, We now are lowering the bar for entrance exams for less intelligent students. The SAT measures how well you take a test, not how smart you are. It also measures whether or not your parents can pay for a prep class. Not that I think this is a good idea, but please don't say that economically disadvantaged kids are not as smart. Guess he's not smart enough to know that.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 12:08:15 GMT -5
... The other two could be easily covered by existing staff. ... lol. Thirty kids and, what the hell, a competent teacher could also take care of a non-verbal, non-potty trained human being. ... ... I wasn't an educator, nor administrator. Yeah.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 12:15:55 GMT -5
... The other two could be easily covered by existing staff. ... lol. Thirty kids and, what the hell, a competent teacher could also take care of a non-verbal, non-potty trained human being. ... ... I wasn't an educator, nor administrator. Yeah. Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. Or innuendo affected by quoting partial posts. I will have to stand by my original post, and our education system has become filled with turf protecting educators, taking advantage of the situation.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 18, 2019 12:20:02 GMT -5
Your question suggestion is all covered under "growing disparity". I can see the point of the ratio being too low to start with, but not that low to account. The other two could be easily covered by existing staff. I don't think you need 4x the staff for the % of students in that classification.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 12:25:49 GMT -5
Your question suggestion is all covered under "growing disparity". I can see the point of the ratio being too low to start with, but not that low to account. The other two could be easily covered by existing staff. I don't think you need 4x the staff for the % of students in that classification. That was my response also, when I view the attempts at justification of this disparity.
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oped
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Post by oped on May 18, 2019 12:28:14 GMT -5
I know you aren’t that incapable of comprehension, but if you want to make me say it explicitly, I was certainly laughing at your assertions x, not billis.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 13:37:32 GMT -5
lol. Thirty kids and, what the hell, a competent teacher could also take care of a non-verbal, non-potty trained human being. Yeah. Didn't think you would come up with anything valid. Just statistically irrelevant outliers. Or innuendo affected by quoting partial posts. I will have to stand by my original post, and our education system has become filled with turf protecting educators, taking advantage of the situation. Schooling is the perfect opportunity to display Merican ignorant expertise. "I spent 12/13 years in the public schools from 5/6-18 so I is an expert."
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on May 18, 2019 13:42:41 GMT -5
... Or innuendo affected by quoting partial posts. ... I don't see any reason to quote all of a post when referencing only a part of what you say. I clearly indicate what I have done in case someone wants to go back and see your other pearls of wisdom.
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