djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 11, 2019 9:18:59 GMT -5
OK, you get a pass from me* for that practical reason..... but not for the sanctimonious sentiment that we can be pure as the driven snow and put our sensibilities over national interest. Regarding the second point.... I can do nothing about my state's second district, unfortunately. Mine voted quite clearly for the other candidate. In fact though, we are providing a laboratory for ranked choice voting, which WILL allow people to vote their consciousness. You're welcome. *Of course I realize no one cares whether they get a pass from me. Sad, really. This is why it is a shame that so many people's votes mean nothing in the Presidential race. If only we could make people feel like they mattered. for the record, I never said my vote didn't matter. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Apr 11, 2019 9:27:28 GMT -5
This is why it is a shame that so many people's votes mean nothing in the Presidential race. If only we could make people feel like they mattered. for the record, I never said my vote mattered. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
I get that sentiment, I really do, and I even believed it a little when I was younger and more idealistic. However, having seen the very real fallout of such voting, I'm just not sure I can get behind it. Not with our current system.
I'm not sure how we change it though, since both parties have a very vested interest in keeping it exactly as it is.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 11, 2019 10:09:00 GMT -5
for the record, I never said my vote mattered. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
I get that sentiment, I really do, and I even believed it a little when I was younger and more idealistic. However, having seen the very real fallout of such voting, I'm just not sure I can get behind it. Not with our current system.
I'm not sure how we change it though, since both parties have a very vested interest in keeping it exactly as it is.
I am not admonishing you for playing the party game. I did it for many years.
I am just asking to NOT be admonished for NOT playing.
you know, you folks that want to win elections should pick on the 40% that DON'T VOTE. get THEM to vote for your candidate. because people like me are never going to do it, until you run someone that fits in with my values (aka never).
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 11, 2019 10:15:11 GMT -5
This is why it is a shame that so many people's votes mean nothing in the Presidential race. If only we could make people feel like they mattered. for the record, I never said my vote mattered. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
You forgot to add, the founders put in the Electoral College and that is how it works and if you are not happy with the outcome tell democrats to quit moving to a few populated BLUE states and move a couple of million to a FEW SELECT RED states with small populations and win the EC! Other than that, nice post.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 11, 2019 10:40:09 GMT -5
for the record, I never said my vote mattered. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
You forgot to add, the founders put in the Electoral College and that is how it works and if you are not happy with the outcome tell democrats to quit moving to a few populated BLUE states and move a couple of million to a FEW SELECT RED states with small populations and win the EC! Other than that, nice post. the way you have staked your claim is inaccurate.
first of all, it is not "a few states". it is ELEVEN. it takes the unanimous vote of 11 states to win the EC.
secondly, neither i, nor anyone else is suggesting that we give those 11 states MORE clout. in fact, we are suggesting they have LESS clout.
when i vote Republican in California, what happens? it is the same as not voting. i am, for all intents and purposes, disenfranchised.
if the EC was NOT there, my vote would count the same as yours. one man one vote. that sounds FAIR to me.
when the EC was constructed, we didn't have TRAINS, let alone high speed internet. getting votes to DC was a major hassle. it is a different world now. we can easily govern directly. we don't need some powdered wig white dude to carry our votes for us, thanks.
it is time for America to stop living in the 19th century.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Apr 11, 2019 11:08:09 GMT -5
I mean....maybe? They've been known to shoot each other for less.
In all seriousness, good luck. I lived in the second for 10 years, and I wouldn't want to try to engage most of those peeps in political debate.
One of our local volunteers this last election cycle used to live north of Skowhegan somewhere. She said that she was knocking on doors to canvass for the gay marriage bill up there when that was being advocated for. How well do you think that was received, overall? Let's just say she really, really enjoys working in this part of the state...…. Brave lady. Not something I would have done.
Beautiful part of the state. Would never want to live there.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Apr 11, 2019 11:14:10 GMT -5
You forgot to add, the founders put in the Electoral College and that is how it works and if you are not happy with the outcome tell democrats to quit moving to a few populated BLUE states and move a couple of million to a FEW SELECT RED states with small populations and win the EC! Other than that, nice post. the way you have staked your claim is inaccurate.
first of all, it is not "a few states". it is ELEVEN. it takes the unanimous vote of 11 states to win the EC.
secondly, neither i, nor anyone else is suggesting that we give those 11 states MORE clout. in fact, we are suggesting they have LESS clout.
when i vote Republican in California, what happens? it is the same as not voting. i am, for all intents and purposes, disenfranchised.
if the EC was NOT there, my vote would count the same as yours. one man one vote. that sounds FAIR to me.
when the EC was constructed, we didn't have TRAINS, let alone high speed internet. getting votes to DC was a major hassle. it is a different world now. we can easily govern directly. we don't need some powdered wig white dude to carry our votes for us, thanks.
it is time for America to stop living in the 19th century.
Last sentence. Obama did exactly what you are espousing. He used the internet. He used 21st century data gathering techniques. He knew where he had to go to win the election. He had a team that knew how to get him in the WH. Hillary failed on these exact counts. Her husband even warned her about it. We do not have to change any rules. Just do what is required to win. In twenty years, based on new voter data the EC will be outmoded and no Presidential candidate can pull off the win Trump put together, which was in all sincerity, was a accident. Michigan Wisconsin Ohio, Pennsylvania had enough democrats to win it for Hillary. They did not bother voting for her. Florida basically needs only another 50,000 democrats to move to Florida from NJ and NYS to swing the state blue.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Apr 11, 2019 12:05:39 GMT -5
This is why it is a shame that so many people's votes mean nothing in the Presidential race. If only we could make people feel like they mattered. I think it makes perfect sense to move the presidential election to a raw popular vote, and I have for ages. We have the House as the body that can represent people from less populated areas and their interests. Actually I believe that would be the Senate?
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Apr 11, 2019 13:03:23 GMT -5
I think it makes perfect sense to move the presidential election to a raw popular vote, and I have for ages. We have the House as the body that can represent people from less populated areas and their interests. Actually I believe that would be the Senate? I was speaking more to the House seats being assigned according to districts and population. Every state gets two Senators regardless of size.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 11, 2019 13:45:23 GMT -5
the way you have staked your claim is inaccurate.
first of all, it is not "a few states". it is ELEVEN. it takes the unanimous vote of 11 states to win the EC.
secondly, neither i, nor anyone else is suggesting that we give those 11 states MORE clout. in fact, we are suggesting they have LESS clout.
when i vote Republican in California, what happens? it is the same as not voting. i am, for all intents and purposes, disenfranchised.
if the EC was NOT there, my vote would count the same as yours. one man one vote. that sounds FAIR to me.
when the EC was constructed, we didn't have TRAINS, let alone high speed internet. getting votes to DC was a major hassle. it is a different world now. we can easily govern directly. we don't need some powdered wig white dude to carry our votes for us, thanks.
it is time for America to stop living in the 19th century.
Last sentence. Obama did exactly what you are espousing. He used the internet. He used 21st century data gathering techniques. He knew where he had to go to win the election. He had a team that knew how to get him in the WH. Hillary failed on these exact counts. Her husband even warned her about it. We do not have to change any rules. the fact that Obama gamed a 19th century system is actually SUPPORTIVE of my idea that we need to change it.
but you are probably right. fussing with the rules is not the best choice. changing the game is a better idea.
#fucktheEC
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 11, 2019 16:07:23 GMT -5
This is why it is a shame that so many people's votes mean nothing in the Presidential race. If only we could make people feel like they mattered. I think it makes perfect sense to move the presidential election to a raw popular vote, and I have for ages. We have the House as the body that can represent people from less populated areas and their interests. And the Senate. States are adequately represented.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 11, 2019 16:24:55 GMT -5
for the record, I never said my vote mattered. my voted mattered immensely to the person I voted for, because so few people did. and eventually, if people stop voting lockstep for parties, we might get some change in this country.
I have voted in every election I was eligible to vote in, and will continue to do so. but I am not going to vote out of "guilt". I am going to vote as the founders intended: for the candidate that most reflects my views.
You forgot to add, the founders put in the Electoral College and that is how it works and if you are not happy with the outcome tell democrats to quit moving to a few populated BLUE states and move a couple of million to a FEW SELECT RED states with small populations and win the EC! Other than that, nice post. The founders were not flawless. And they certainly couldn't predict the future. Maybe this should be changed.
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sesfw
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Post by sesfw on Apr 11, 2019 19:05:49 GMT -5
Every state gets two Senators regardless of size.
And I remember in the 1960s people complaining to high heaven about that. Some of my shirt-tail relatives in So Calif wanted population representation in both Houses.
Let's keep the EC
I'll duck while you throw spit-balls at me
You're welcome
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Apr 11, 2019 20:01:43 GMT -5
You forgot to add, the founders put in the Electoral College and that is how it works and if you are not happy with the outcome tell democrats to quit moving to a few populated BLUE states and move a couple of million to a FEW SELECT RED states with small populations and win the EC! Other than that, nice post. The founders were not flawless. And they certainly couldn't predict the future. Maybe this should be changed. This argument, that the founders are some mythical, infallible beings and we should all just stay with the way they "intended" things always cracks me up. Um. No. They were flawed humans, just like the rest of us, and I would hope that maybe we've learned better ways to do things over the last 200+ years. If not, we're doing something terribly, terribly wrong.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Apr 11, 2019 20:04:51 GMT -5
Every state gets two Senators regardless of size.
And I remember in the 1960s people complaining to high heaven about that. Some of my shirt-tail relatives in So Calif wanted population representation in both Houses. Let's keep the EC I'll duck while you throw spit-balls at me You're welcome I don't have a strong opinion on the Senate. I could see both sides of this, but I'm not opposed to a branch of congress giving equal representation to each state, and one being based on state population. That seems fair to me. I think the EC needs to go, because I think the president should truly be the head of the country, and he should court everyone's vote equally. That's not happening now. With states being more or less firmly in one camp or the other (often due to fucked up mapping) they can ignore big swaths of the country, and that doesn't sit well with me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Apr 12, 2019 11:11:03 GMT -5
Every state gets two Senators regardless of size.
And I remember in the 1960s people complaining to high heaven about that. Some of my shirt-tail relatives in So Calif wanted population representation in both Houses. Let's keep the EC I'll duck while you throw spit-balls at me You're welcome Maybe each state could give their electoral votes proportionally. AZ has 11. Trump could have 6 with 49% of the vote, and Hillary could have 5 with 46% of the vote. No third party gets any until they are up at 8% or something. Or maybe the electoral votes could be cast as each of the districts vote, and the other two votes could go the way of the state, so Trump would have gotten 5 plus 2, and Hillary would have gotten 4. In either of those scenarios, my vote means something. In our current set up, I'm swallowed whole - and usually for Senators too. Synema was a big get for us! And we wonder why voter turn out is low and people are frustrated.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Apr 12, 2019 15:57:17 GMT -5
The EC was put in place because the founding fathers knew darn well the tricky situation they would be in if they made the country a true democracy which would be that women and slaves would have the right to vote. The southern states were pissed about this because naturally they wanted to be able to use their slaves to stack the deck, this is where the 3/5s law came into place.
The EC was designed to keep the vote out of the hands of people the founding fathers considered not worthy enough of voting. It had NOTHING to do with making sure evil liberal California couldn't take over the world and run poor red states out of the election. If the United States is truly supposed to represent all of us then it needs to represent all of us not just a handful of states that have big enough EC counts to swing the vote.
BTW I have felt this way since HS government class. The more I read about our election system and how it was created the more I realize how steeped in racism and sexism it is. We've come a long way but have a lot farther that we need to go if we're going to sit around and claim the US is "for the people by the people".
I'm not opposed to looking at how the House and Senate are staffed either. This is a document that was written when there were only 13 colonies who acted more as independent nations than a 50 state nation. It is never a bad thing to discuss how the world has evolved and what we may consider changing in light of it vs stubbornly declaring things that were created in 1775 as sacred. If that was the case then a very large portion of this board wouldn't be able to vote right now if nothing that was written by our founding fathers could be changed. I suggest you read your history on exactly who got to vote when the constitution was created.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Apr 12, 2019 17:08:56 GMT -5
The EC was put in place because the founding fathers knew darn well the tricky situation they would be in if they made the country a true democracy which would be that women and slaves would have the right to vote. The southern states were pissed about this because naturally they wanted to be able to use their slaves to stack the deck, this is where the 3/5s law came into place. The EC was designed to keep the vote out of the hands of people the founding fathers considered not worthy enough of voting. It had NOTHING to do with making sure evil liberal California couldn't take over the world and run poor red states out of the election. If the United States is truly supposed to represent all of us then it needs to represent all of us not just a handful of states that have big enough EC counts to swing the vote. BTW I have felt this way since HS government class. The more I read about our election system and how it was created the more I realize how steeped in racism and sexism it is. We've come a long way but have a lot farther that we need to go if we're going to sit around and claim the US is "for the people by the people". I'm not opposed to looking at how the House and Senate are staffed either. This is a document that was written when there were only 13 colonies who acted more as independent nations than a 50 state nation. It is never a bad thing to discuss how the world has evolved and what we may consider changing in light of it vs stubbornly declaring things that were created in 1775 as sacred. If that was the case then a very large portion of this board wouldn't be able to vote right now if nothing that was written by our founding fathers could be changed. I suggest you read your history on exactly who got to vote when the constitution was created.Wasn't it basically white male landowners?
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formerroomate99
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Post by formerroomate99 on Apr 15, 2019 18:31:19 GMT -5
For everyone here that ridiculed and put down VP Pence for saying he would not get in a position of being alone with a member of the opposite sex, you might want to admit it may not be as obnoxious as you claimed at the time. He seems he was ahead of the democratic sex wave that we are now witnessing. maybe he doesn't trust his naughty impulses. maybe he is gay. maybe he was beaten by his mother.
and you have a lot of gall calling out Democrats when you elected the Groper In Chief.
Maybe this is less about anyone claiming Republicans are paragons of virtue, and more about Democrats crucifying Pence for what is arguably smart strategy. It’s no accident that newer office buildings are being built with glass walled offices. Pence isn’t the only one worrying about false accusations and rumors.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Apr 15, 2019 21:52:34 GMT -5
maybe he doesn't trust his naughty impulses. maybe he is gay. maybe he was beaten by his mother.
and you have a lot of gall calling out Democrats when you elected the Groper In Chief.
Maybe this is less about anyone claiming Republicans are paragons of virtue, and more about Democrats crucifying Pence for what is arguably smart strategy. It’s no accident that newer office buildings are being built with glass walled offices. Pence isn’t the only one worrying about false accusations and rumors. i have no feelings about Pence one way or another.
I am just saying that there are any of 1000 reasons why he is the way he is.
just like all of us.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 15, 2019 22:07:54 GMT -5
An evangelical Christian school in Indiana no less. Maybe there is hope yet for some evangelicals. Students at Christian university urge administration to rescind Pence's commencement inviteStudents and alumni of a small evangelical Christian school in Indiana are urging the administration to disinvite Vice President Pence from delivering the commencement address. More than 3,700 signatures were collected on a Change.org petition as of Monday afternoon, asking Taylor University President Paul Lowell Haines to rescind Pence's invitation, according to Fox News. The university, located outside Indianapolis, has an enrollment of fewer than 3,000 students. “Inviting Vice President Pence to Taylor University and giving him a coveted platform for his political views makes our alumni, faculty, staff and current students complicit in the Trump-Pence Administration's policies, which we believe are not consistent with the Christian ethic of love we hold dear,” the petition, which was started last week, reads. Article here: Students at Christian university urge administration to rescind Pence's commencement invite
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