chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 25, 2019 10:45:55 GMT -5
in the past week, I have read reports of two survivors of the Marjory Stoneman-Douglas HS shooting having taken their own lives. this is just a little over a year after losing 17 classmates in a mass shooting. Sydney Aiello took her own life over St Patrick's Day weekend, the second (still unidentified) student just this past weekend. NY Times linkCNN linkMiami Herald - Sydney Aielloand just now this morning, the father of a Sandy Hook victim has been found dead of an apparent suicide as well. Jeremy Richman, father of Avielle Richman, was found this morning. NBC Boston linksad that these folks couldn't get through the healing process and felt this was their only option. rest easy, all of you.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 11:35:42 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 25, 2019 11:51:57 GMT -5
wow, that's your takeaway? that didn't take long. I chose to leave out some commentary in my OP, but since you brought the topic there - perhaps if all the gun nuts didn't value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans, maybe "these things" would turn out differently. perhaps if all those people offering the ever-useful "thoughts and prayers" after every single one of these mass shootings did something to improve the world in which these young adults grow up to become shooters, then maybe "these things" wouldn't be a thing. wouldn't that be great?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 12:22:58 GMT -5
wow, that's your takeaway? that didn't take long. I chose to leave out some commentary in my OP, but since you brought the topic there - perhaps if all the gun nuts didn't value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans, maybe "these things" would turn out differently. perhaps if all those people offering the ever-useful "thoughts and prayers" after every single one of these mass shootings did something to improve the world in which these young adults grow up to become shooters, then maybe "these things" wouldn't be a thing. wouldn't that be great? Perhaps if law abiding gun owners weren't being blamed for the action of a few criminals... That's my take. Source for "all the gun nuts value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans" ? That should be a good read. Here's some stories of gun nuts valuing their shiny toys over human lives. www.americanrifleman.org/the-armed-citizen
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 25, 2019 12:24:19 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over. From CHiver's NY Times link: Reads to me Sydney AIello was receiving counseling. She suffered from PTSD. And having now mentioned PTSD... Suicide and PTSDSome military troops, both active and retired, suffer from PTSD and many commit suicide. Were these troops being used as pawn in the gun control game too?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 12:26:13 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over. From CHiver's NY Times link: Reads to me Sydney AIello was receiving counseling. She suffered from PTSD. And having now mentioned PTSD... Suicide and PTSDSome military troops, both active and retired, suffer from PTSD and many commit suicide. Were these troops being used as pawn in the gun control game too? No.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 25, 2019 12:44:11 GMT -5
I wonder if the suicides are statistically anomalous.
It's unfortunate, but teenage suicide isn't an uncommon thing. We had a suicide at my high school of about 600 during the four years I was there--that I knew about. I've read that for every successful suicide, there are dozens of attempts (I seem to recall a 25:1 ratio). We're perhaps falling prey to a post hoc fallacy. For anyone with the time, it might be interesting to look into how students from other shootings have coped (statistically speaking), and whether there are observable differences in outcome based on how the incidents were handled. Although I'd have put things more... delicately... than @x, I share his concern that our national responses to these shootings (the acute orgy of grief, condemnation, and partisanship) may well be multiplying the stresses and emotional shocks that lead to suicidal ideation. I doubt we'll ever know. I still set stock by the Amish response to the Nickel Mine shooting. Those people will forever be an inspiration to me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 12:48:05 GMT -5
I wonder if the suicides are statistically anomalous.
It's unfortunate, but teenage suicide isn't an uncommon thing. We had a suicide at my high school of about 600 during the four years I was there--that I knew about. I've read that for every successful suicide, there are dozens of attempts (I seem to recall a 25:1 ratio). We're perhaps falling prey to a post hoc fallacy. For anyone with the time, it might be interesting to look into how students from other shootings have coped (statistically speaking), and whether there are observable differences in outcome based on how the incidents were handled. Although I'd have put things more... delicately... than @x , I share his concern that our national responses to these shootings (the acute orgy of grief, condemnation, and partisanship) may well be multiplying the stresses and emotional shocks that lead to suicidal ideation. I doubt we'll ever know. I still set stock by the Amish response to the Nickel Mine shooting. Those people will forever be an inspiration to me.
My point. (bolded) My own posting execution, not so great.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 12:53:24 GMT -5
I never heard of the Nickel Mine shooting.
Nor the response in the aftermath.
I'm well read about it now.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Mar 25, 2019 14:51:58 GMT -5
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 25, 2019 15:58:46 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over. So what is an effective post traumatic treatment for a high school student who sees her fellow students gunned down?
We probably need to launch some kind of national treatment network, provide lots of trained staff, get a whole pack of experts waiting near airports to deploy instantly when the next inevitable school shooting occurs.
Sure, it will cost a lot of money, and PTSD has proven to be very difficult to treat, but it's a small price to pay to live in a country that makes sure even all our whack jobs get to own the armory of their choice.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 25, 2019 16:09:31 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over. So what is an effective post traumatic treatment for a high school student who sees her fellow students gunned down?
We probably need to launch some kind of national treatment network, provide lots of trained staff, get a whole pack of experts waiting near airports to deploy instantly when the next inevitable school shooting occurs.
Sure, it will cost a lot of money, and PTSD has proven to be very difficult to treat, but it's a small price to pay to live in a country that makes sure even all our whack jobs get to own the armory of their choice.
The other day I unfortunately came across two video made by the shooter at the Christchurch mosques last week. I was looking for his manifesto and came across a site which contained the videos he made as he mowed down the worshipers. I imagine some who survived will have PTSD and maybe a few of them will hurt themselves in the future. I am sorry I watched even a small portion of the videos.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 25, 2019 16:17:31 GMT -5
So what is an effective post traumatic treatment for a high school student who sees her fellow students gunned down?
We probably need to launch some kind of national treatment network, provide lots of trained staff, get a whole pack of experts waiting near airports to deploy instantly when the next inevitable school shooting occurs.
Sure, it will cost a lot of money, and PTSD has proven to be very difficult to treat, but it's a small price to pay to live in a country that makes sure even all our whack jobs get to own the armory of their choice.
The other day I unfortunately came across two video made by the shooter at the Christchurch mosques last week. I was looking for his manifesto and came across a site which contained the videos he made as he mowed down the worshipers. I imagine some who survived will have PTSD and maybe a few of them will hurt themselves in the future. I am sorry I watched even a small portion of the videos. What makes me the most sad about those videos is that the shooter knew that there would be a certain segment of the human race who would be eager to watch them, and would even applaud the shooter.
Did you see how the guy made a 'white power' hand signal when he was standing in court?
Yet Trump thinks we should believe he's an 'eco terrorist.'
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 25, 2019 16:23:08 GMT -5
The other day I unfortunately came across two video made by the shooter at the Christchurch mosques last week. I was looking for his manifesto and came across a site which contained the videos he made as he mowed down the worshipers. I imagine some who survived will have PTSD and maybe a few of them will hurt themselves in the future. I am sorry I watched even a small portion of the videos. What makes me the most sad about those videos is that the shooter knew that there would be a certain segment of the human race who would be eager to watch them, and would even applaud the shooter.
Did you see how the guy made a 'white power' hand signal when he was standing in court?
Yet Trump thinks we should believe he's an 'eco terrorist.'
I did. Small little man the guy is.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Mar 25, 2019 16:42:15 GMT -5
What makes me the most sad about those videos is that the shooter knew that there would be a certain segment of the human race who would be eager to watch them, and would even applaud the shooter.
Did you see how the guy made a 'white power' hand signal when he was standing in court?
Yet Trump thinks we should believe he's an 'eco terrorist.'
I did. Small little man the guy is. Yes, they are!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 25, 2019 21:11:46 GMT -5
wow, that's your takeaway? that didn't take long. I chose to leave out some commentary in my OP, but since you brought the topic there - perhaps if all the gun nuts didn't value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans, maybe "these things" would turn out differently. perhaps if all those people offering the ever-useful "thoughts and prayers" after every single one of these mass shootings did something to improve the world in which these young adults grow up to become shooters, then maybe "these things" wouldn't be a thing. wouldn't that be great? their shiny toys. That is not true. Most of mine are camouflage. Trying to blame the entire community of gun owners over what a very few mental cases do with their guns, Most of which didn't legally acquire those guns.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 25, 2019 21:39:37 GMT -5
Oh boy. Let me finish the argument for you. "There's no reason anyone needs these kinds of guns. We need common sense gun laws. We need to save lives." "Gun control doesn't work. Liberty over security. Don't tread on my rights." "You don't care about bodies piling up." "You don't care about the joys and liberties of responsible owners." "Guns have to go." "Gun control just doesn't work." "Yes it does." "No it doesn't." "Callous wingnut!" "Gun grabbing nanny stater!" "Killer!" "Tyrant!" ... ... *huff huff* *huff wheeze* "I thought that went pretty well." "Yeah. I did too." "Same time next shooting... or... post-shooting suicide?" "I'll be there." "Do take care." "Quite. And yourself."
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2019 22:03:10 GMT -5
This thread is disgusting.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 25, 2019 22:15:32 GMT -5
wow, that's your takeaway? that didn't take long. I chose to leave out some commentary in my OP, but since you brought the topic there - perhaps if all the gun nuts didn't value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans, maybe "these things" would turn out differently. perhaps if all those people offering the ever-useful "thoughts and prayers" after every single one of these mass shootings did something to improve the world in which these young adults grow up to become shooters, then maybe "these things" wouldn't be a thing. wouldn't that be great? their shiny toys. That is not true. Most of mine are camouflage. Trying to blame the entire community of gun owners over what a very few mental cases do with their guns, Most of which didn't legally acquire those guns.
Stoneman, Vegas, pulse, Newtown... and many others were all legally obtained guns. But you know that, it's not a secret. Most domestic violence murders are done by legal guns too. As well as suicides.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 25, 2019 22:53:18 GMT -5
Most domestic violence murders are done by legal guns,
Where did you come up with that? As far as suicides go, that are a million different reasons why,,
A point,, I had a young woman working for me,, she was suicidal, had tried a couple of time and didn't get it accomplished, I used to buy her medicine for her, She gave me notice she was leaving , at the same time I found she was stealing from me,, She left.. I did not check on her for a couple of years,, I was angry with her for stealing, I guess I trusted her.
I checked Facebook,, nothing,, then the Suicide Wall popped up, There she was, looking back, I don't think any thing was going to stop her,,
All she need was a time when no one could stop her!
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 25, 2019 23:08:55 GMT -5
their shiny toys. That is not true. Most of mine are camouflage. Trying to blame the entire community of gun owners over what a very few mental cases do with their guns, Most of which didn't legally acquire those guns.
Stoneman, Vegas, pulse, Newtown... and many others were all legally obtained guns. But you know that, it's not a secret. Most domestic violence murders are done by legal guns too. As well as suicides. Don't forget CHristchurch. Weapons legally purchased.
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justme
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Post by justme on Mar 25, 2019 23:11:16 GMT -5
Most domestic violence murders are done by legal guns,
Where did you come up with that? As far as suicides go, that are a million different reasons why,,
A point,, I had a young woman working for me,, she was suicidal, had tried a couple of time and didn't get it accomplished, I used to buy her medicine for her, She gave me notice she was leaving , at the same time I found she was stealing from me,, She left.. I did not check on her for a couple of years,, I was angry with her for stealing, I guess I trusted her.
I checked Facebook,, nothing,, then the Suicide Wall popped up, There she was, looking back, I don't think any thing was going to stop her,,
All she need was a time when no one could stop her!
lawcenter.giffords.org/domestic-violence-and-firearms-statistics/See link above. It's one of many that detail the problems of domestic violence and legal guns. In the few places that prevent those with domestic violence charges of getting guns domestic violence murders drastically decrease. I never talked about the "why" of suicide, just that they are often done using a legal weapon. Though I'll expand that we have a high rate of suicide and an unusually high rate of suicide by gun.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 26, 2019 3:30:53 GMT -5
This thread is disgusting. It's not disgusting, but I do question the wisdom of posting the articles in the OP without any questions or guidance for discussion, e.g. "Are we handling post-shooting trauma as well as we could?", "Is our national response to these tragedies compounding traumas?", "Have you ever been touched by a PTSD-related suicide?", etc. chiver78 should know by now that, absent such guidance, members are going to read in all kinds of underlying significance, that "pretext for gun control" is almost certainly going to be among the inferred significance, and that the past 572 threads on "tragedies and gun control" have always featured particularly stark divides between pro-security and pro-liberty. Hence, chiver, if it wasn't your intent for this thread to turn into "tragedies and gun control" episode #573, now would be a good time to provide those questions and guidance. Or just lock the thread, if the OP was more of an FYI than a topic up for discussion.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 26, 2019 5:23:35 GMT -5
I think I was quite clear in my OP and my first reply to x as to my thoughts. I'm pretty disgusted by a couple posters in this thread, and I don't think anyone needs me to point out which ones. threads rarely stick to one topic, and quite frankly, we as mods are not in the habit of telling people where and what to post. I'm not about to start here, as much as I think some of it doesn't belong here. none of it violates CoC. I don't particularly appreciate being chastised for what I should and shouldn't know about how to post, especially given that there was way more I wanted to say in my first reply. choosing to abide by the CoC, I censored myself. I'll do so again here. have a splendid day.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Mar 26, 2019 5:53:30 GMT -5
here is an interesting read - linkNBC spoke with a survivor of the Columbine HS shooting about the path he took after HS, his struggles and a support group founded by a group of Columbine survivors in response to the Aurora shooting in 2012 - The Rebels Project
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oped
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Post by oped on Mar 26, 2019 6:10:16 GMT -5
wow, that's your takeaway? that didn't take long. I chose to leave out some commentary in my OP, but since you brought the topic there - perhaps if all the gun nuts didn't value their shiny toys over the lives of other humans, maybe "these things" would turn out differently. perhaps if all those people offering the ever-useful "thoughts and prayers" after every single one of these mass shootings did something to improve the world in which these young adults grow up to become shooters, then maybe "these things" wouldn't be a thing. wouldn't that be great? their shiny toys. That is not true. Most of mine are camouflage. Trying to blame the entire community of gun owners over what a very few mental cases do with their guns, Most of which didn't legally acquire those guns.
But every person who crosses the border illegally or calls god Allah is a murderer... rich.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 26, 2019 7:08:03 GMT -5
I think I was quite clear in my OP and my first reply to x as to my thoughts. I'm pretty disgusted by a couple posters in this thread, and I don't think anyone needs me to point out which ones. threads rarely stick to one topic, and quite frankly, we as mods are not in the habit of telling people where and what to post. I'm not about to start here, as much as I think some of it doesn't belong here. none of it violates CoC. I don't particularly appreciate being chastised for what I should and shouldn't know about how to post, especially given that there was way more I wanted to say in my first reply. choosing to abide by the CoC, I censored myself. I'll do so again here. have a splendid day. It seems to me the posters you're "pretty disgusted by" did exactly what you wanted them to: read the subtext of the OP (which I didn't even realize was a plug for gun control until reading this), threw it back in your face, and bootstrapped your gun control scrum. Poor Tenn and I are just babes in the woods. We thought you wanted to talk about PTSD or something. Good luck with "tragedies and gun control on YMAM" episode #573. I've seen this one 572 times before, so I'll make myself scarce.
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Mar 26, 2019 7:52:21 GMT -5
Maybe these things would turn out differently, if the concern was for helping the kids, and not using them for pawns in the gun control game, then ignoring them after the hype is over. So your solution to all this would be “let’s allow all numbnuts and unbalanced individuals purchase firearms legally and if one of them happens to shoot up a school, church or theatre and kill dozens of people will deal with the fallout by providing them psychological support in the aftermath” There are 29 or so veterans committing suicide across US every day and they have the full support of the mighty US Government. Why don’t we start there? Allow just normal, sane people access to weapons and maybe we don’t have to invest in extra psychological support for kids and parents! And yes, it is to some extent about gun control because it’s about whom we allow to have those weapons. That’s how you control guns! Through the people that have access to them. Nobody said it’s the guns fault!
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Mar 26, 2019 7:52:45 GMT -5
I think I was quite clear in my OP and my first reply to x as to my thoughts. I'm pretty disgusted by a couple posters in this thread, and I don't think anyone needs me to point out which ones. threads rarely stick to one topic, and quite frankly, we as mods are not in the habit of telling people where and what to post. I'm not about to start here, as much as I think some of it doesn't belong here. none of it violates CoC. I don't particularly appreciate being chastised for what I should and shouldn't know about how to post, especially given that there was way more I wanted to say in my first reply. choosing to abide by the CoC, I censored myself. I'll do so again here. have a splendid day. It seems to me the posters you're "pretty disgusted by" did exactly what you wanted them to: read the subtext of the OP (which I didn't even realize was a plug for gun control until reading this), threw it back in your face, and bootstrapped your gun control scrum. Poor Tenn and I are just babes in the woods. We thought you wanted to talk about PTSD or something. Good luck with "tragedies and gun control on YMAM" episode #573. I've seen this one 572 times before, so I'll make myself scarce.
I've been pretty jaded about gun control, as well, for the last few decades. The NRA seemed to have a stranglehold over nearly every politician, keeping even the thought of gun control elusive.
However, one of the CT politicians was on the news this Am. Apparently the parent of one of the children massacred in the school shooting there took his life this weekend. The irony is that he and his wife had spent their time post massacre establishing a fund to support research into how people can mentally get to the point where they take up guns and kill children - they wanted to try to help figure out how to take up weapons against others and (very ironically) harming themselves.
The politician noted that, a few years ago, the NRA seemed to have a big infusion of cash - which we now know might have partly come from Russian donations (that rabbit hole didn't get explored much, in the Mueller investigation). Since that news came out, though, the NRA is now out of money, and they haven't been able to rally their political pressure against anti-NRA politicians. At the same time, there has been a grass roots ground swell over the last few years from survivor groups of these massacres to push politicians to do some meaningful gun law reforms.
He pointed out that the NRA built itself up over about 30 years into a powerful lobbyist, but he thinks we're at a transition where the NRA is diminishing while those new organizations pushing for reform are gaining support. So maybe, 30 years from now, it will be the gun reform people who are pushing around the politicians, not the NRA.
Too soon to know. We'll see.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 8:56:26 GMT -5
That's what happens. I see it reported on the news every day that the mass shootings are just fictitious stories. It's all a scheme of the NRA to have a gun in everyone's hand so we can shoot our families and neighbors.
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