weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 17:28:44 GMT -5
Perhaps you're one of those people who thinks that in countries with strong social safety nets, nobody works, and the same 16 people who do work, pay for EVERYTHING?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Mar 5, 2019 19:21:30 GMT -5
The USPS has also had to fund, by Repo-Con Congressional decree, their retirement system 70 years into the future. This cash drain keeps them from being profitable.
The Repo-Cons want to cripple it so they can privatize.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 5, 2019 20:01:58 GMT -5
As far as Canada's system, from what I think your position is, you and I have differences on what is considered fair. let's settle that difference, then.
to me "fair" means equal access and opportunity.
what does "fair" mean to you?
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 20:04:20 GMT -5
Well, of course the system is going to groan and be on the brink of collapse if you get an influx of 600,000 people who don't pay into the system. That's hardly a valid argument. You mean like what's coming across the Southern Border of the U.S.? No. Sweden has a population of about 10 million. The Rs keep saying the "The USA is SO BIG! So many people! It will never work here!" The USA has a population of about 330 million people. 600,000 is drop in the bucket for you. Hardly the same thing. It's called math.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 20:05:32 GMT -5
let's settle that difference, then.
to me "fair" means equal access and opportunity.
what does "fair" mean to you?
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available? My brother in law waited 3 weeks for a hip replacement.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 20:13:04 GMT -5
let's settle that difference, then.
to me "fair" means equal access and opportunity.
what does "fair" mean to you?
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available? How long will someone have to wait for a hip replacement in the USA if they have no insurance?
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 5, 2019 20:13:30 GMT -5
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available? My brother in law waited 3 weeks for a hip replacement. If the Ontario woman waited in excess of a year and your brother only three weeks... then the system is not fair with equal access and opportunity.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 21:55:36 GMT -5
You mean like what's coming across the Southern Border of the U.S.? No. Sweden has a population of about 10 million. The Rs keep saying the "The USA is SO BIG! So many people! It will never work here!" The USA has a population of about 330 million people. 600,000 is drop in the bucket for you. Hardly the same thing. It's called math. But they keep coming! These are only the one's they caught, a bunch more got thru!! They mowed my lawn today!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 22:45:46 GMT -5
My brother in law waited 3 weeks for a hip replacement. If the Ontario woman waited in excess of a year and your brother only three weeks... then the system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. And AGAIN.....each province runs its own healthcare. Some have longer wait times than others. Some offer sex change surgery gratis and others don't. Some pay for IVF and some don't. It's not homogeneous. You can't point at one woman and claim it's the same for everyone in Canada.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 22:47:06 GMT -5
As an example from my post #41, the Forbes article. "One Ontario woman, Judy Congdon, learned that she needed a hip replacement in 2016, according to the Toronto Sun. Doctors initially scheduled the procedure for September 2017 -- almost a year later. The surgery never happened on schedule. The hospital ran over budget, forcing physicians to postpone the operation for another year." How is waiting over a year for a hip surgery fair? I suppose she had equal access for a diagnosis and eventually will get the opportunity for the needed hip surgery. The hospital was over budget, and was rationing care to this patient. Was it just unlucky she wasn't diagnosed earlier in the year when funding was available? How long will someone have to wait for a hip replacement in the USA if they have no insurance? Are you going to answer, Great? It can cost up to $125,000. How long will they have to save their change to come up with that kind of money?
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 22:54:08 GMT -5
How long will someone have to wait for a hip replacement in the USA if they have no insurance? Are you going to answer, Great? If you are truly poor, ACCESS is the best insurance you can get,, They would get a hip replacement really fast!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 22:56:19 GMT -5
Are you going to answer, Great? If you are truly poor, ACCESS is the best insurance you can get,, They would get a hip replacement really fast! They still have to buy the insurance, correct? Many people are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck, and 44 million Americans are uninsured.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 22:57:23 GMT -5
I can not express my joy with the fact that AOC is pushing her agenda,, That and the 16% that are following Bernie!!!
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 22:57:50 GMT -5
If you are truly poor, ACCESS is the best insurance you can get,, They would get a hip replacement really fast! They still have to buy the insurance, correct? Many people are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck, and 44 million Americans are uninsured. Nope it is all free!
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 23:04:31 GMT -5
They still have to buy the insurance, correct? Many people are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck, and 44 million Americans are uninsured. Nope it is all free! More BS from you.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 5, 2019 23:06:51 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 5, 2019 23:11:49 GMT -5
Show me there it says "free". No premiums, no co-pays, no deductibles, just free, free, free!
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 5, 2019 23:55:20 GMT -5
How long will someone have to wait for a hip replacement in the USA if they have no insurance? Are you going to answer, Great? It can cost up to $125,000. How long will they have to save their change to come up with that kind of money? google search says the average wait time in the US is approx 3-4 weeks, and average cost of $30K. There are doctors that will reduce fees for those who do not have insurance as well. We have a program called Medicaid for low income people and Medicare for the 65+
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 0:05:22 GMT -5
Then why are 44 million Americans uninsured, if they're all eligible for Medicare/Medicaid?
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 6, 2019 0:50:05 GMT -5
Then why are 44 million Americans uninsured, if they're all eligible for Medicare/Medicaid? I'll need to take time to try and research this tomorrow for reasons why some remain uninsured. Some reasons I have heard/read about are young people that don't think they need it and make a choice not to buy. The people who qualify for subsidies on the ACA say the premiums and deductibles are still too expensive so they make a choice to remain uninsured.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 1:00:05 GMT -5
Then why are 44 million Americans uninsured, if they're all eligible for Medicare/Medicaid? I'll need to take time to try and research this tomorrow for reasons why some remain uninsured. Some reasons I have heard/read about are young people that don't think they need it and make a choice not to buy. The people who qualify for subsidies on the ACA say the premiums and deductibles are still too expensive so they make a choice to remain uninsured. "Buy" is the key word here. You still have to BUY insurance. The premiums and deductibles are still too expensive. So I ask again....how long to save up to pay for a hip transplant? Turns out, all the "free stuff' posted by you and AS isn't free, after all.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 6, 2019 7:15:47 GMT -5
I'll need to take time to try and research this tomorrow for reasons why some remain uninsured. Some reasons I have heard/read about are young people that don't think they need it and make a choice not to buy. The people who qualify for subsidies on the ACA say the premiums and deductibles are still too expensive so they make a choice to remain uninsured. "Buy" is the key word here. You still have to BUY insurance. The premiums and deductibles are still too expensive. So I ask again....how long to save up to pay for a hip transplant? Turns out, all the "free stuff' posted by you and AS isn't free, after all. Yes, our system requires an individual/family to buy insurance coverage if they want it and are not qualified under the Medicaid or Medicare programs. The government subsidizes (financial assistance) to some individual/family policies depending on how much earned income. ACA Open Enrollment: If You Are Low-Income…https://www.kff.org/health-reform/fact-sheet/aca-open-enrollment-if-you-are-low-income/ Nothing is 'free' someone is paying for those services, taxpayers or through increased premiums to paying policy holders. Canada doesn't have 'free' insurance either, it is taxpayer funded and government makes all decisions regarding healthcare services, correct? eta... I'm not sure why you are asking me how long does it take for someone to save up for a hip replacement, I don't have access to strangers financial statements and budgets. Its also a mystery to me why some people will voluntarily impoverish themselves to get 'free to them' taxpayer funded services.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Mar 6, 2019 7:45:00 GMT -5
Then why are 44 million Americans uninsured, if they're all eligible for Medicare/Medicaid? In states that took the Medicaid expansion that was a part of Obamacare, people that are below the Medicaid income limit can get Medicaid (free), and if they are above the limit they qualify for Obamacare subsidies up to 400% of the federal poverty level. The main gaps are for people that are in the states that did not implement that part of Obamacare. In those states nonpregnant adults without kids are mostly disqualified from Medicaid, and they don't qualify for subsidies in Obamacare (if they are in the Medicaid range of income) because they are supposed to be receiving Medicaid. Also people that are just over the 400% fpl income limit to receive an Obamacare subsidy can struggle to afford the premiums. Also some states are implementing work requirements to make it harder to receive Medicaid. Which is fine for people that are healthy and can find a job, but it sucks if you get sick and lose your job, because then you don't qualify at the time you need it the most. Some states also keep requesting a 5 year lifetime limit, after which you lose your Medicaid and good luck. However that one was shot down for this year at least.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Mar 6, 2019 8:30:10 GMT -5
Show me there it says "free". No premiums, no co-pays, no deductibles, just free, free, free! Like I said if you are truly poor. it is free, and the best insurance you can have!
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Mar 6, 2019 8:37:23 GMT -5
Other people's money? What are you yammering about?
In countries with socialized medicine, it's OUR money. We all pool our resources and whoever needs health care, gets it.
There ARE no "other people".
Ah, No. You call it pooling resources. No. It is taking from the rich and redistributing wealth to the poor. I am not saying this is necessarily wrong, just call it what it is. You are not pooling everyone's money. Just certain people's money.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 6, 2019 12:14:10 GMT -5
If the Ontario woman waited in excess of a year and your brother only three weeks... then the system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. And AGAIN.....each province runs its own healthcare. Some have longer wait times than others. Some offer sex change surgery gratis and others don't. Some pay for IVF and some don't. It's not homogeneous. You can't point at one woman and claim it's the same for everyone in Canada. So your system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. Live in the wrong place in Canada and you are denied services. Everyone/taxpayers pay in, but not all receive the same benefits? Why is it ok to discriminate against sex change/transgender in some locations? How much does it cost for a sex change operation if you don't live in the right province? How long do they have to save up to pay for a sex change operation if they live in the wrong province?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 14:23:11 GMT -5
"Buy" is the key word here. You still have to BUY insurance. The premiums and deductibles are still too expensive. So I ask again....how long to save up to pay for a hip transplant? Turns out, all the "free stuff' posted by you and AS isn't free, after all. Yes, our system requires an individual/family to buy insurance coverage if they want it and are not qualified under the Medicaid or Medicare programs. The government subsidizes (financial assistance) to some individual/family policies depending on how much earned income. ACA Open Enrollment: If You Are Low-Income…https://www.kff.org/health-reform/fact-sheet/aca-open-enrollment-if-you-are-low-income/ Nothing is 'free' someone is paying for those services, taxpayers or through increased premiums to paying policy holders. Canada doesn't have 'free' insurance either, it is taxpayer funded and government makes all decisions regarding healthcare services, correct? eta... I'm not sure why you are asking me how long does it take for someone to save up for a hip replacement, I don't have access to strangers financial statements and budgets. Its also a mystery to me why some people will voluntarily impoverish themselves to get 'free to them' taxpayer funded services. No Canadian ever claimed it was free. However, going by your posts and AS's posts, you're implying that free healthcare is available to all. And what do you mean by "voluntarily impoverishing themselves'? You DO know that paying taxes is not voluntary, correct? Furthermore, our taxes not only cover health care, but daycare, higher education, maternity leave, nursing homes for the elderly, etc. It's one hell of a good deal. You end up paying far, far more in the long run than we pay in taxes. How much do you pay for child care? How much do you pay for higher education? How much do you pay for nursing homes for your parents? This is on top of paying through the nose for insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 6, 2019 14:27:23 GMT -5
And AGAIN.....each province runs its own healthcare. Some have longer wait times than others. Some offer sex change surgery gratis and others don't. Some pay for IVF and some don't. It's not homogeneous. You can't point at one woman and claim it's the same for everyone in Canada. So your system is not fair with equal access and opportunity. Live in the wrong place in Canada and you are denied services. Everyone/taxpayers pay in, but not all receive the same benefits?Why is it ok to discriminate against sex change/transgender in some locations? How much does it cost for a sex change operation if you don't live in the right province? How long do they have to save up to pay for a sex change operation if they live in the wrong province? Different provinces tax their citizens differently. You want a sex change operation? Move to Quebec and pay Quebec taxes, which are higher. That being said, if you get sick, you're covered. Everywhere. Things like IVF and sex change operations are "extras", and dependent on where you live.
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Great
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Post by Great on Mar 6, 2019 19:20:00 GMT -5
Yes, our system requires an individual/family to buy insurance coverage if they want it and are not qualified under the Medicaid or Medicare programs. The government subsidizes (financial assistance) to some individual/family policies depending on how much earned income. ACA Open Enrollment: If You Are Low-Income…https://www.kff.org/health-reform/fact-sheet/aca-open-enrollment-if-you-are-low-income/ Nothing is 'free' someone is paying for those services, taxpayers or through increased premiums to paying policy holders. Canada doesn't have 'free' insurance either, it is taxpayer funded and government makes all decisions regarding healthcare services, correct? eta... I'm not sure why you are asking me how long does it take for someone to save up for a hip replacement, I don't have access to strangers financial statements and budgets. Its also a mystery to me why some people will voluntarily impoverish themselves to get 'free to them' taxpayer funded services. No Canadian ever claimed it was free. However, going by your posts and AS's posts, you're implying that free healthcare is available to all. And what do you mean by "voluntarily impoverishing themselves'? You DO know that paying taxes is not voluntary, correct? Furthermore, our taxes not only cover health care, but daycare, higher education, maternity leave, nursing homes for the elderly, etc. It's one hell of a good deal. You end up paying far, far more in the long run than we pay in taxes. How much do you pay for child care? How much do you pay for higher education? How much do you pay for nursing homes for your parents? This is on top of paying through the nose for insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays. voluntary impoverish... there are some people who will not work or limit how much they will work in order to remain in a low income bracket, this way they will continue to be eligible for government benefits. ya know, they like that 'free' government money, they scam the system. These are able bodied people. I am a taxpayer and very well aware paying taxes are not voluntary. Canadian residents pay higher tax rates in exchange for universal government run health care, child care, higher education, nursing care etc. eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Mar 6, 2019 19:57:58 GMT -5
No Canadian ever claimed it was free. However, going by your posts and AS's posts, you're implying that free healthcare is available to all. And what do you mean by "voluntarily impoverishing themselves'? You DO know that paying taxes is not voluntary, correct? Furthermore, our taxes not only cover health care, but daycare, higher education, maternity leave, nursing homes for the elderly, etc. It's one hell of a good deal. You end up paying far, far more in the long run than we pay in taxes. How much do you pay for child care? How much do you pay for higher education? How much do you pay for nursing homes for your parents? This is on top of paying through the nose for insurance premiums, deductibles, co-pays. voluntary impoverish... there are some people who will not work or limit how much they will work in order to remain in a low income bracket, this way they will continue to be eligible for government benefits. ya know, they like that 'free' government money, they scam the system. These are able bodied people. I am a taxpayer and very well aware paying taxes are not voluntary. Canadian residents pay higher tax rates in exchange for universal government run health care, child care, higher education, nursing care etc. eta. I have a Canadian born sister-in-law living in the US for many years, extended family still in Canada. They constantly complain how crappy the government run health care is, and through the years members of the extended family have come to the US for surgeries, testing and pay out of pocket. Got it on different provinces have different taxable rates. You seem to be under the illusion that uninsured people don’t already cost you money. We all are already paying for their healthcare when they go to the ER. Only it’s costing us more than coverage for everyone would cost. We are already paying more per capita for healthcare and getting less for the money spent.
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