Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 20, 2019 11:13:48 GMT -5
It's an opinion piece. I'm not saying you can't find millions of people who'll agree with you that the hat is a racist symbol. I can find millions of people who'll swear on a stack that it isn't. The difference between our positions is that: i) I'm not asserting that everyone who wears the hat does so for the same reason, and ii) I'm not asserting that the suspicions of people offended by the hat outweigh the declared motives of the hat wearers. In all, I'm saying you're overgeneralizing, you're ignoring inconsistencies in your hypothesis, and you have no evidence to support it (excepting the opinions of like-minded people, which aren't evidence).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2019 11:37:53 GMT -5
It's an opinion piece. I'm not saying you can't find millions of people who'll agree with you that the hat is a racist symbol. I can find millions of people who'll swear on a stack that it isn't. The difference between our positions is that: i) I'm not asserting that everyone who wears the hat does so for the same reason, and ii) I'm not asserting that the suspicions of people offended by the hat outweigh the declared motives of the hat wearers. In all, I'm saying you're overgeneralizing, you're ignoring inconsistencies in your hypothesis, and you have no evidence to support it (excepting the opinions of like-minded people, which aren't evidence).
The editors note at the beginning of the article kind of says it all. www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/emma-teitel-what-does-white-privilege-look-like-here-are-a-couple-of-examples/ar-BBUYGQE?li=AAggNb9&ocid=U452DHP
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 20, 2019 12:19:39 GMT -5
It's an opinion piece. I'm not saying you can't find millions of people who'll agree with you that the hat is a racist symbol. I can find millions of people who'll swear on a stack that it isn't. The difference between our positions is that: i) I'm not asserting that everyone who wears the hat does so for the same reason, and ii) I'm not asserting that the suspicions of people offended by the hat outweigh the declared motives of the hat wearers. In all, I'm saying you're overgeneralizing, you're ignoring inconsistencies in your hypothesis, and you have no evidence to support it (excepting the opinions of like-minded people, which aren't evidence).
You work hard to ignore the point don't you. Reread the quote a few times. Acknowledging that millions of people say it's a racist symbol reaffirms the point. The level of your denial is truly awesome.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 20, 2019 14:11:13 GMT -5
It's an opinion piece. I'm not saying you can't find millions of people who'll agree with you that the hat is a racist symbol. I can find millions of people who'll swear on a stack that it isn't. The difference between our positions is that: i) I'm not asserting that everyone who wears the hat does so for the same reason, and ii) I'm not asserting that the suspicions of people offended by the hat outweigh the declared motives of the hat wearers. In all, I'm saying you're overgeneralizing, you're ignoring inconsistencies in your hypothesis, and you have no evidence to support it (excepting the opinions of like-minded people, which aren't evidence).
You work hard to ignore the point don't you. Reread the quote a few times. Acknowledging that millions of people say it's a racist symbol reaffirms the point. The level of your denial is truly awesome. What about "I'm not saying you can't find millions of people who'll agree with you that the hat is a racist symbol." suggests denial to you? You're taking us all the way back to Reply #152. I pointed out that millions of people say Mr. Kaepernick's taking a knee at football games is anti-American symbolism, but their say-so doesn't make it true. I raise three important questions (as of yet unanswered) in the final two paragraphs of Reply #175 that would go a long way to bridging the gap between us if you took them on.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 20, 2019 14:45:46 GMT -5
Virgil the difference between Kaepernick (sp?) and the Hat is that self proclaimed white supremacists wear the hat and proclaim Trump as their champion. When the racists claim you for their own it means something. Wearing the hat is like wearing a white hood and trying to claim it's not racist for you. I don't know of any anti Americans kneeling to the flag during the national anthem. Actually the only other people to do it that I have ever heard of doing it are service men honouring their dead. Which is what Kaepernick was doing, honouring his dead.
I'm stopping again.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 20, 2019 15:22:06 GMT -5
Virgil the difference between Kaepernick (sp?) and the Hat is that self proclaimed white supremacists wear the hat and proclaim Trump as their champion. The US is a nation of 320 million people, nearly half of whom are Republican. You're going to get a lot of unsavoury groups claiming a Republican president as their champion. Their use of a symbol (such as a campaign hat) doesn't make their claim to it legitimate. It certainly doesn't mean that other Americans have to respect the claim. It means they like you more than the Democrat.
We've been over the guilt-by-association argument before too. The white hood has hundreds of years of history behind it,. More importantly, the organization that uses it (i.e. the KKK) has always acknowledged it as a racist symbol. It was designed as such, not merely co-opted by sundry groups after the fact.
I agree with you, but it is a matter of opinion.
Furthermore, if certain anti-American movements appropriate the gesture this year but Mr. Kaepernick continues to use it with the symbolism he intends, that doesn't make him anti-American. He's simply refusing to respect the anti-American group's claims.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Mar 20, 2019 15:49:31 GMT -5
The red hat has been identified as a symbol of racism by a majority of Americans, and a good number of citizens of other countries. If you don't want to be identified as a racist, don't wear it. Its that simple, its not like its the only damn hat in the world. If you are wearing it at this point, it means you don't care about being identified as a racist. Again, that simple. Argue all you want that its not, but to the majority of humans, it is. The Nazi swastika was actually an ancient religious icon symbolizing divinity, but that's not what it represents anymore. Same with the hat. Deal with it.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Mar 20, 2019 17:01:10 GMT -5
The KKK's pointy white hood also stood for anti-Catholicism, not just white supremacy. When people see it now, do they think of that? Doubtful. Same with the stupid MAGA hat.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Mar 20, 2019 18:10:25 GMT -5
The red hat has been identified as a symbol of racism by a majority of Americans, and a good number of citizens of other countries. If you don't want to be identified as a racist, don't wear it. Its that simple, its not like its the only damn hat in the world. If you are wearing it at this point, it means you don't care about being identified as a racist. Again, that simple. Argue all you want that its not, but to the majority of humans, it is. The Nazi swastika was actually an ancient religious icon symbolizing divinity, but that's not what it represents anymore. Same with the hat. Deal with it. Can't spell 'hatred' without 'red hat'.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 20, 2019 19:28:29 GMT -5
The red hat has been identified as a symbol of racism by a majority of Americans, and a good number of citizens of other countries. Show me a poll or study backing this up and I'll concede the argument.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 20, 2019 22:05:56 GMT -5
How's about you produce a poll or study backing up your stand.
The main poll I can think of would be the two most recent elections. The popular vote was 3 million more for Hillary. I feel safe saying they think it's racist. And then there would be the mid terms. The Dems won that one both by popular vote and seats so I feel safe claiming them too.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 20, 2019 22:45:40 GMT -5
The red hat has been identified as a symbol of racism by a majority of Americans, and a good number of citizens of other countries. Show me a poll or study backing this up and I'll concede the argument. BTW this would be more evidence of your bias. You are demanding "proof" for the liberal stand without insisting on "proof" for your Conservative stand. I refuse to go back and pull out all the examples of your bigotry and prejudice, I don't go back over threads. But I will be happy to point out every instance of it I see from now on. Your welcome.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 21, 2019 9:15:58 GMT -5
BTW this would be more evidence of your bias. You are demanding "proof" for the liberal stand without insisting on "proof" for your Conservative stand. Not one week ago I asked 'x =' for proof of his statement regarding murders being classified as disappearances and it was you needled me about it for four straight days. You don't think 'x =' is a conservative? He immediately recognized the fact might be shaky, explained its origin, and disclaimed certainty in it. Have you ever thought that's why conservative v. conservative warfare is such a rarity on YMAM? Because we're too damn reasonable?
But I will be happy to point out every instance of it I see from now on. Your welcome. I'll be on pins and needles. I recommend you work on your own sexism and white privilege in the meantime.** You see, it occurs to me that surely you must know Betty Boop is derided as a sexist icon and a symbol of the male patriarchy by many quarters on the Internet. Some of these also point out that sexily-dressed Betty is identified as being 14 or 16 years old in some of her cartoons, making her an underage sexualized figure for men. Yet year after year you've persisted in using this sexist symbol in your avatar, and you've been getting away with it. It's time your white privilege ended. It's time the rest of us stopped smiling and pretending we believe you when you say you don't think of Betty Boop as a 14-year old sexualized girl and relic of the 1930's patriarchy. Legions of people swear she's a sexist icon, your opinion is irrelevant, and hence I have no choice but to respect the legion's claims. Betty Boop has got to go, Later, I'm sorry. Well, actually, I'm not sorry. I think you're a sexist, white privileged, woman-hating bigot, and nothing you can conceivably say will change my mind on the matter, but you know what, you're white and you deserve it. Now that I've made the world a happier, more just place by telling you off, I'm off to bring social justice to other bigots. Perhaps I'll succeed in scouring Betty Boop and all her foulness from the Internet all by myself. Ta for now. **Please note that this paragraph and the subsequent 6 paragraphs are a rhetorical device and not a genuine critique. They are meant to be analogous to laterbloomer's critique of MAGA hat wearers. I do not believe laterbloomer hates her own gender, or that Betty Boop is a sexist icon. It is worth mentioning, however, that all claims presented in the second paragraph (regarding Betty Boop) are factual.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Mar 21, 2019 9:50:07 GMT -5
OMG Virgil! Proof of your stand in THIS discussion. Seriously, I am this close to blocking you. And now you're trying to slut shame me! Feminism is about choices! It's up to me how I "dress".
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Mar 21, 2019 11:11:42 GMT -5
BTW this would be more evidence of your bias. You are demanding "proof" for the liberal stand without insisting on "proof" for your Conservative stand. Not one week ago I asked 'x =' for proof of his statement regarding murders being classified as disappearances and it was you needled me about it for four straight days. You don't think 'x =' is a conservative? He immediately recognized the fact might be shaky, explained its origin, and disclaimed certainty in it. Have you ever thought that's why conservative v. conservative warfare is such a rarity on YMAM? Because we're too damn reasonable?
That is honestly a thought that has NEVER occurred to me. Not once. Not surprising either.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 21, 2019 11:45:41 GMT -5
So instead of a MAGA hat, I decide to get a teardrop tattoo on my face right under my outer eye where tear drops would fall. I think it looks really cool. In fact, I'll get 4 of them in a row, in different colors, with fancy designs on the teardrops.
People then start calling me a murderer, I can't find employment, and people are afraid of me. It's just a pretty decoration, I don't get it. Why am I being shunned and treated badly?
It's because the vast majority of the people that get that type of tat have killed people in prison. I may not have, but I've certainly co-opted their chosen look.
Just because I don't think the teardrops mean what a large chunk of people do, doesn't mean I'm not going to be treated like the majority of people who choose to sport a certain tattoo, hat, shirt, or flash white supremacy signals.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 21, 2019 11:46:16 GMT -5
Not one week ago I asked 'x =' for proof of his statement regarding murders being classified as disappearances and it was you needled me about it for four straight days. You don't think 'x =' is a conservative? He immediately recognized the fact might be shaky, explained its origin, and disclaimed certainty in it. Have you ever thought that's why conservative v. conservative warfare is such a rarity on YMAM? Because we're too damn reasonable?
That is honestly a thought that has NEVER occurred to me. Not once. Not surprising either. yeah, I can't say that ever occurred to me. Ever.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 21, 2019 12:24:07 GMT -5
OMG Virgil! Proof of your stand in THIS discussion. Seriously, I am this close to blocking you. Proof of my stand in this discussion? First of all, a preface: Your claim is in this thread is that there is no such thing as a non-racist MAGA hat wearer. Equivalently, there is no such thing as a MAGA hat wearer who wears the hat for any reason except to surreptitiously advertise support for racism. Compile your many arguments in this thread (which now amount to well over a page), they lead to this conclusion and this conclusion alone. If you deny this, I will, time permitting, compile a litany of quotes making it clear this is the only logical interpretation of your arguments in toto. Perhaps it's not your intended meaning, but if so, that is your very big problem. My claim is simply the converse of your claim: Not everyone wearing the hat is a racist or is supporting racism by wearing it. Accordingly, nobody should be harassed for simply wearing the hat. Furthermore, if a wearer denies the hat is a symbol of racism and claims to be wearing it for other reasons, their claim should be treated as truthful and sincere unless/until they demonstrate an overt act of racism, such as shouting slurs, march in KKK rallies, etc. Are we on the same page so far? If so, I'll present to you my proof.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 13:02:42 GMT -5
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 21, 2019 13:50:48 GMT -5
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Mar 21, 2019 13:54:54 GMT -5
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Mar 21, 2019 13:56:21 GMT -5
And I wouldn't be surprised if those 4 (except Kanye) were wearing it as a joke!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Mar 21, 2019 14:23:02 GMT -5
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Mar 21, 2019 14:31:24 GMT -5
and certainly racists, as well.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 21, 2019 17:04:56 GMT -5
Bing? Come on. Who uses Bing? Use Duck Duck Go, or Google if you don't mind helping one of the most insidious corporations on Earth.
All exercising their non-white white privilege to declare to the world how racist they are.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Mar 21, 2019 19:03:21 GMT -5
So instead of a MAGA hat, I decide to get a teardrop tattoo on my face right under my outer eye where tear drops would fall. I think it looks really cool. In fact, I'll get 4 of them in a row, in different colors, with fancy designs on the teardrops. People then start calling me a murderer, I can't find employment, and people are afraid of me. It's just a pretty decoration, I don't get it. Why am I being shunned and treated badly? It's because the vast majority of the people that get that type of tat have killed people in prison. I may not have, but I've certainly co-opted their chosen look. Just because I don't think the teardrops mean what a large chunk of people do, doesn't mean I'm not going to be treated like the majority of people who choose to sport a certain tattoo, hat, shirt, or flash white supremacy signals. I missed this earlier, and it bears responding to.
We're going all the way back to Reply #135. To wit, "Ask yourself whether this the hill you want to die on before wearing the hat; people can be unreasonable and irascible." In other words, I well understand that wearing the hat will agitate certain groups. Anyone wearing it should take this into account. But the debate we're having here is: Should we, the readership, participate in this hat shaming? The answer is 'no'. Regarding your teardrop analogy: the tattoo has a long-established symbolism entirely defined by those who use it. That is, the tattoo was designed for a specific purpose, and tattoo wearers plainly acknowledged this purpose from the first, much like the white hood of the KKK. It wasn't the case that a bunch of progressives wandered by, beheld prisoners with teardrops, and thought to themselves, "You know what? I hate prisoners, and I'll bet they all murder people. So wearing a teardrop means you've killed somebody. We have spoken it, therefore it is true."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2019 7:32:02 GMT -5
Yeah, they have limited space So were those 4 racists ? Are you critiquing my ability to find pictures ? Edit; Ok, I just got to Virgil@syonidv post when going through my notifications. He had more.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 26, 2019 16:53:28 GMT -5
This going to cost them for fake news!!
Nick Sandmann lawsuit against Washington Post dismissed by judgeThe $250 million lawsuit filed by Nick Sandmann against The Washington Post has been dismissed by a federal judge. William Bertelsman, who heard oral arguments in the case earlier this month, issued the ruling on Friday. Sandmann and his attorneys, Todd McMurtry and L. Lin Wood, alleged that the gist of The Washington Post's first article conveyed that Nick had assaulted or physically intimidated Nathan Phillips, engaged in racist conduct, and engaged in taunts. But, Bertelsman wrote, "this is not supported by the plain language in the article, which states none of these things." Nick Sandmann lawsuit against Washington Post dismissed by judge
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Jul 26, 2019 19:36:37 GMT -5
Ahhhh Man,,,
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Jul 26, 2019 20:05:20 GMT -5
👍
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