Constitutional Crisis?

[happyhoix]

I kept hearing various talking heads on the news this weekend insisting we are in one.

I know we have some constitutional experts on the board, I'm curious what they think.

And if we are in one, what will happen?  

[djAdvocate]

I would like to think: the right thing.

but after the last two years of watching McConnel follow around Trump with his nose up his backside, I am not at all sure that is the case.

[Gardening Grandma]

billsonboatd has a pretty good summation on another thread. I’ll try to find it

[tallguy]

I don't think it really becomes a constitutional crisis until either Congress fails to shut down this order or the courts fail to declare it unconstitutional.  As long as those entities do their jobs properly the Constitution will be affirmed as the supreme law of the land.

[billisonboard]

The Constitution of the United States
...

Article I (Article 1 - Legislative)

...

Section 9

...

7: No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law;

...

Article II (Article 2 - Executive)

...

Section 3

He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; ...


President Trump did his Constitutional duty when he recommended funding a wall on the Southern border. The Legislative Branch did their Constitutional duty to consider that request. They rejected that recommendation. That was where we were at through last Friday. Then President Trump determined that he would not accept the Constitutional limit placed on the power of the Executive Branch. He declared a national emergency to circumvent the Constitution of the United States to use money in a way not appropriated by law.

It should be a Constitutional Crisis. Will Congress push it.      What they should do is this:

(a)Termination methods Any national emergency declared by the President in accordance with this subchapter shall terminate if—

(1) there is enacted into law a joint resolution terminating the emergency;  

link

President Trump likely would veto it. Congress then needs to override the veto.

If President Trump were to work to still build the wall, either censure or impeachment would be the next step. If he didn't back off at that point, removal would be necessary.

[countrygirl2]

Removal would thrill my soul. I dislike pence intently but he may not have the Russian connections to take us down and he would be out in short order.  I don't know of anyone he appeals to.

[billisonboard]

Feb 18, 2019 22:29:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I don't think it really becomes a constitutional crisis until either Congress fails to shut down this order or the courts fail to declare it unconstitutional.  As long as those entities do their jobs properly the Constitution will be affirmed as the supreme law of the land.

A house has been set on fire. The Fire Department has the tools to put it out. They use the tools or maybe watch it burn. When was the situation a crisis? I think the people living in the house would see the crisis starting with the house burning.

[ednkris]

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

[tallguy]

Feb 18, 2019 22:38:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Feb 18, 2019 22:29:09 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I don't think it really becomes a constitutional crisis until either Congress fails to shut down this order or the courts fail to declare it unconstitutional.  As long as those entities do their jobs properly the Constitution will be affirmed as the supreme law of the land.

A house has been set on fire. The Fire Department has the tools to put it out. They use the tools or maybe watch it burn. When was the situation a crisis? I think the people living in the house would see the crisis starting with the house burning.

Or is it a grass fire in the yard, or maybe more appropriately a trash fire in the bin out back?  Congress is standing there with a hose.  Can they put it out?  Yes, the call has been made to the Fire Department (the courts) but they are not yet on scene and may not need to act anyway.

[tallguy]

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

By what measure do you consider it legal?  Wishful thinking?   

[billisonboard]

Feb 18, 2019 22:56:43 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Feb 18, 2019 22:38:46 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

A house has been set on fire. The Fire Department has the tools to put it out. They use the tools or maybe watch it burn. When was the situation a crisis? I think the people living in the house would see the crisis starting with the house burning.

Or is it a grass fire in the yard, or maybe more appropriately a trash fire in the bin out back?  Congress is standing there with a hose.  Can they put it out?  Yes, the call has been made to the Fire Department (the courts) but they are not yet on scene and may not need to act anyway.

Grass fire:

I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, find that the prevalence and severity of human rights abuse and corruption that have their source, in whole or in substantial part, outside the United States, such as those committed or directed by persons listed in the Annex to this order, have reached such scope and gravity that they threaten the stability of international political and economic systems. Human rights abuse and corruption undermine the values that form an essential foundation of stable, secure, and functioning societies; have devastating impacts on individuals; weaken democratic institutions; degrade the rule of law; perpetuate violent conflicts; facilitate the activities of dangerous persons; and undermine economic markets. The United States seeks to impose tangible and significant consequences on those who commit serious human rights abuse or engage in corruption, as well as to protect the financial system of the United States from abuse by these same persons. link

Trash fire:

I, DONALD J. TRUMP, President of the United States of America, find that the situation in Nicaragua, including the violent response by the Government of Nicaragua to the protests that began on April 18, 2018, and the Ortega regime's systematic dismantling and undermining of democratic institutions and the rule of law, its use of indiscriminate violence and repressive tactics against civilians, as well as its corruption leading to the destabilization of Nicaragua's economy, constitutes an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States, and I hereby declare a national emergency to deal with that threat. I hereby determine and order: link

House fire: Ask the Legislative Branch for funding and declare an emergency when they don't give it to you.

[billisonboard]

Feb 18, 2019 22:58:45 GMT -5 tallguy said:

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

By what measure do you consider it legal?  Wishful thinking?   

I would say he legally declared a national emergency by statute and illegally by Constitution.

[tallguy]

I would still contend that he is only trying to burn the house down.  He may be standing outside hoping stuff lights, but we are not looking at the walls burning yet.  We built out of brick, not wood.  It doesn't burn that easy.

[Gardening Grandma]

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

You really don’t understand the Constitution. The Founding Fathers designed our system to have Congress control the purse strings, not the President.   Your god is trying to run around the Constitution.

If you take the time to read bill’s post, it’s pretty clear....

[countrygirl2]

Horrible situation and the republican leadership is complicit.  Russians contributed $3.5 million to McConnells pac.  Now you know why he is supporting this or so I have read.

[TheHaitian]

Feb 18, 2019 23:40:25 GMT -5 Gardening Grandma said:

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

You really don’t understand the Constitution. The Founding Fathers designed our system to have Congress control the purse strings, not the President.   Your god is trying to run around the Constitution.

If you take the time to read bill’s post, it’s pretty clear....

He doesn’t need to read, Trump told him so!

[tbop77]

President Trump has no idea what the constitution says....or how the government runs.  He thought he could be elected President and sit in the oval office and everyone would do what he says, just like his business.  And that is legal or illegal.  He just didn't understand all these people aren't on his payroll.  

And I really don't think he cares about illegal immigration, heck he has them on his payroll at his resorts.  You really would think he would have cleaned that up before he made it the signature of his presidency, but not President Trump and his people don't care.

He had to declare a national emergency to appease his people.  He don't care what happens next.  It's another con, then he can say when he is running for re-election that "I tried, but those dirty dems."  And his crowd will never mention Mexico is going to pay for it again.  

[happyhoix]

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

1) Not a national emergency crisis, because a) Trump admitted he 'could have waited and done this slowly' but decided not to, b) his security advisors gave a long report to Congress about our most serious threats to national security, and the southern border didn't even deserve a mention, c) the influx of illegal immigrants is at it's lowest point since 1971. If it wasn't a national emergency in 1971, it isn't now, d) and if it is such a crisis now, why didn't he push Congress to grant him the money two years ago, when the GOP ran everything - why is it only a crisis NOW? 

2) It's a constitutional crisis because the constitution specifically says Congress controls where the money is spent, not the president. If Congress does not set aside billions of dollars for the kind of wall Trump insists he must have, Trump can't seize money from other budget items - that's subverting the will of Congress.

What's made up, wishful thinking is Trump hoping this will arouse every voter to rush to support him in 2020. It will galvanize the faithful Trumpettes who cling to every word he says like it's gospel, but it only provides additional fodder to the rest of us, who are certain Trump is on course to destroy the union, through his own greed and ineptness.

[OldCoyote]

You know what the best part is??

Trump keeps you all running in circles, screaming Trump did this Trump did that,,, All the time you waste on that just takes time away from you doing something constructive,,,

Woooo Hooooo, Trump is making America Great Again,,

In the mean time Trump keep moving the economy right along,

Business is booming, for me at least, if you have not got on the gravy train, it is not Trumps fault, you failed to get a ticket, or you have been to busy bad mouthing Trump to get on that train,

I have doubled my with holding concerned about the tax on the money I have made!

Now to the best of the best!!!

Since Trump has the Left so riled up,  they are going into self deconstruction mode..  Don't believe it??

Look at all the politicians lining up to run against Trump,, each with a different agenda,  From some what moderate,,( Liberal use of that word) to the hard core Socialist!!

Each of these politician have followers that are not going to fall in line with the Main Demo party,

You only need to look at the last election,, the number of Bernie follower that could not bring them selves to vote for Hillary!!!

Ocasio Cortez

Rashida Harbi Tlaib

Kamala Harris

Ed Markey

Cory Booker

Kristen Gillibrand

Elizabeth Warren

Iihan Omar

Beto O'Rourke

Bernie Sanders

Each going in a different direction, and this is just the start,, Wait until the main stream get involved,,,

Can Pelosi keep them in line?? I Don't Think soooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

Again MAGA!!!!

[happyhoix]

Feb 19, 2019 9:23:11 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

You know what the best part is??

Trump keeps you all running in circles, screaming Trump did this Trump did that,,, All the time you waste on that just takes time away from you doing something constructive,,,

Woooo Hooooo, Trump is making America Great Again,,

In the mean time Trump keep moving the economy right along,

Business is booming, for me at least, if you have not got on the gravy train, it is not Trumps fault, you failed to get a ticket, or you have been to busy bad mouthing Trump to get on that train,

I have doubled my with holding concerned about the tax on the money I have made!

Now to the best of the best!!!

Since Trump has the Left so riled up,  they are going into self deconstruction mode..  Don't believe it??

Look at all the politicians lining up to run against Trump,, each with a different agenda,  From some what moderate,,( Liberal use of that word) to the hard core Socialist!!

Each of these politician have followers that are not going to fall in line with the Main Demo party,

You only need to look at the last election,, the number of Bernie follower that could not bring them selves to vote for Hillary!!!

Ocasio Cortez

Rashida Harbi Tlaib

Kamala Harris

Ed Markey

Cory Booker

Kristen Gillibrand

Elizabeth Warren

Iihan Omar

Beto O'Rourke

Bernie Sanders

Each going in a different direction, and this is just the start,, Wait until the main stream get involved,,,

Can Pelosi keep them in line?? I Don't Think soooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!

Again MAGA!!!!

Umm, once the primary is done, there will just be one Dem running - you get that, right?

Glad you're happy with Trump because things have worked out well, financially, for you. That's what every American should do - vote strictly on which option gets you the most cash, and fuck everyone else. Our allies have abandoned us? We're internally more divided than ever before? The wealth gap between rich and poor is expanding daily? We're on the brink of a constitutional crisis? When the Mueller probe is finally released, our POTUS might be criminally indicted?  Who cares, OC has had a good financial year! Whoo hoo!

[OldCoyote]

After the primary, there be a couple that think their time has come to change America,,, AOC comes to mind, she now thinks the World revolves around her!

Maybe start a third or fourth Party!!

Don't be complaining about the rich,, the opportunity is there for you also if you want it!  there is nothing wrong with having money!  But don't expect money when all you want is free stuff!!

Or some one else to pay for it!!

On the brink of a Constitutional crisis,, not even close.

What are going to do if Mueller come back with NO indictments against Trump,,, I know, I know ,,, you will have wasted all the hate and time railing about Trump for nothing!!!

Annnnd Yes O.C. is really happy about have a great finanical year,, You could have done it also ,, if you would worked at something rather than wasting time bad mouthing Trump,,

And if in the slightest chance Mueller found something on Trump ,,,, So be it, I will move on, Still making money!!!

on the other hand we will see most of you railing about Trump again wasting time over nothing you have control over!!!

[swamp]

financially, I'm doing great, but it's not all about me. 

And I"m pretty sure AOC doesn't think the world revolves around her, the only ones talking about her are the republicans.   They.Won't.Stop.  

[happyhoix]

Feb 19, 2019 11:00:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

financially, I'm doing great, but it's not all about me. 

And I"m pretty sure AOC doesn't think the world revolves around her, the only ones talking about her are the republicans.   They.Won't.Stop.  

It's because she scares them.

After the money grab Trump did for the wealthy right after he became president, the country is due to swing to the left, but exactly how far left is still up for grabs.  They saw how easy it was for AOC to win her district, and they're scared. They should be.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 19, 2019 11:13:31 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 19, 2019 11:00:29 GMT -5 swamp said:

financially, I'm doing great, but it's not all about me. 

And I"m pretty sure AOC doesn't think the world revolves around her, the only ones talking about her are the republicans.   They.Won't.Stop.  

It's because she scares them.

After the money grab Trump did for the wealthy right after he became president, the country is due to swing to the left, but exactly how far left is still up for grabs.  They saw how easy it was for AOC to win her district, and they're scared. They should be.

yeah, it is the message they are scared of, not the messenger.  they think she is just some little naiive girl that will fold. they think they can discredit her as such. they want to keep the message down. they might succeed.

[ednkris]

Feb 19, 2019 8:09:07 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 18, 2019 22:54:30 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Trump legally declared a national emergency for illegal border crossing. Where is the constitution crises? It's all made up. Wish full thinking on your part

1) Not a national emergency crisis, because a) Trump admitted he 'could have waited and done this slowly' but decided not to, b) his security advisors gave a long report to Congress about our most serious threats to national security, and the southern border didn't even deserve a mention, c) the influx of illegal immigrants is at it's lowest point since 1971. If it wasn't a national emergency in 1971, it isn't now, d) and if it is such a crisis now, why didn't he push Congress to grant him the money two years ago, when the GOP ran everything - why is it only a crisis NOW? 

2) It's a constitutional crisis because the constitution specifically says Congress controls where the money is spent, not the president. If Congress does not set aside billions of dollars for the kind of wall Trump insists he must have, Trump can't seize money from other budget items - that's subverting the will of Congress.

What's made up, wishful thinking is Trump hoping this will arouse every voter to rush to support him in 2020. It will galvanize the faithful Trumpettes who cling to every word he says like it's gospel, but it only provides additional fodder to the rest of us, who are certain Trump is on course to destroy the union, through his own greed and ineptness.

number 1 is irrelevant as long as he says it's a national emergency then its up to congress to vote otherwise that is how it works

number 2 is not an issue because of number one. He did not circumvent congress. He didn't just redistribute the money, he is doing it under legal means. 

when Trump shut the govt down it was up to the dems to open it back up by giving him the 5 bill he wanted, chuck and nancy said no which is fair enough that is their prerogative. They wanted the govt to open then discuss the border, they got their way and nothing. oSo here we are the dems own this shit too. Now they and all you other Trump hater are up in arms oh he's killing the constitution, he's killing democracy. NO he is staying within the boundaries of the law. That is what is pissing everyone off so used to having 8 years of obama doing all far left shit you cant handle when there is a republican president doing what the right side wants 

[djAdvocate]

Feb 19, 2019 9:57:33 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

After the primary, there be a couple that think their time has come to change America,,, AOC comes to mind, she now thinks the World revolves around her!

Maybe start a third or fourth Party!!

that would be.......democratic?

I have complained for decades that we are basically one party rule: corporatism.

we really do desperately need an alternative.

[happyhoix]

Feb 19, 2019 11:54:16 GMT -5 ednkris said:

Feb 19, 2019 8:09:07 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

1) Not a national emergency crisis, because a) Trump admitted he 'could have waited and done this slowly' but decided not to, b) his security advisors gave a long report to Congress about our most serious threats to national security, and the southern border didn't even deserve a mention, c) the influx of illegal immigrants is at it's lowest point since 1971. If it wasn't a national emergency in 1971, it isn't now, d) and if it is such a crisis now, why didn't he push Congress to grant him the money two years ago, when the GOP ran everything - why is it only a crisis NOW? 

2) It's a constitutional crisis because the constitution specifically says Congress controls where the money is spent, not the president. If Congress does not set aside billions of dollars for the kind of wall Trump insists he must have, Trump can't seize money from other budget items - that's subverting the will of Congress.

What's made up, wishful thinking is Trump hoping this will arouse every voter to rush to support him in 2020. It will galvanize the faithful Trumpettes who cling to every word he says like it's gospel, but it only provides additional fodder to the rest of us, who are certain Trump is on course to destroy the union, through his own greed and ineptness.

number 1 is irrelevant as long as he says it's a national emergency then its up to congress to vote otherwise that is how it works

number 2 is not an issue because of number one. He did not circumvent congress. He didn't just redistribute the money, he is doing it under legal means. 

when Trump shut the govt down it was up to the dems to open it back up by giving him the 5 bill he wanted, chuck and nancy said no which is fair enough that is their prerogative. They wanted the govt to open then discuss the border, they got their way and nothing. oSo here we are the dems own this shit too. Now they and all you other Trump hater are up in arms oh he's killing the constitution, he's killing democracy. NO he is staying within the boundaries of the law. That is what is pissing everyone off so used to having 8 years of obama doing all far left shit you cant handle when there is a republican president doing what the right side wants 

NO he is not.

He said himself he didn't have to do this, he could wait and do it more slowly - he just wants to do it this way.

Well, he's already getting sued by 16 states, and this thing will be locked up in courts for the next two years. By that time, he'll be voted out of office, and he won't get his wall anyway.

Seems like his best choice would be to use the money he has right now, and move forward to build as much of his wall as he can right now, while negotiating with Congress for more money.  Then he will have at least some small segment of the wall to show his potential voters in 2020.

Why do you think he decided to declare this fake emergency? I'll give you a hint, it's not to get funding for his wall (he hasn't even spent the money he'd already gotten two years ago). Why do you think he's really doing this?

[Wisconsin Beth]

Feb 19, 2019 12:05:22 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 19, 2019 11:54:16 GMT -5 ednkris said:

number 1 is irrelevant as long as he says it's a national emergency then its up to congress to vote otherwise that is how it works

number 2 is not an issue because of number one. He did not circumvent congress. He didn't just redistribute the money, he is doing it under legal means. 

when Trump shut the govt down it was up to the dems to open it back up by giving him the 5 bill he wanted, chuck and nancy said no which is fair enough that is their prerogative. They wanted the govt to open then discuss the border, they got their way and nothing. oSo here we are the dems own this shit too. Now they and all you other Trump hater are up in arms oh he's killing the constitution, he's killing democracy. NO he is staying within the boundaries of the law. That is what is pissing everyone off so used to having 8 years of obama doing all far left shit you cant handle when there is a republican president doing what the right side wants 

NO he is not.

He said himself he didn't have to do this, he could wait and do it more slowly - he just wants to do it this way.

Well, he's already getting sued by 16 states, and this thing will be locked up in courts for the next two years. By that time, he'll be voted out of office, and he won't get his wall anyway.

Seems like his best choice would be to use the money he has right now, and move forward to build as much of his wall as he can right now, while negotiating with Congress for more money.  Then he will have at least some small segment of the wall to show his potential voters in 2020.

Why do you think he decided to declare this fake emergency? I'll give you a hint, it's not to get funding for his wall (he hasn't even spent the money he'd already gotten two years ago). Why do you think he's really doing this?

I wonder if he thinks/assumes/believes that anything not spent by the end of his term he gets to keep, like profits in his businesses.  Or a bonus check/golden parachute. 

[dondub]

when Trump shut the govt down it was up to the dems to open it back up by giving him the 5 bill he wanted, chuck and nancy said no which is fair enough that is their prerogative. They wanted the govt to open then discuss the border, they got their way and nothing. oSo here we are the dems own this shit too. Now they and all you other Trump hater are up in arms oh he's killing the constitution, he's killing democracy. NO he is staying within the boundaries of the law. That is what is pissing everyone off so used to having 8 years of obama doing all far left shit you cant handle when there is a republican president doing what the right side wants

I'm sorry young knave, but thouest wrong. Thy 'King' has notteth been crowned. His decree concerning any wall can be met with disagreement by the representatives of the serfs

as it is not their responsibility to kisseth the 'King's' arse in this matter. Obviously a jester such as yourself must think wrongly to stay in good graces, but wrongly it is. Until your

'King' has finally destroyed the magna carta of our land, he is still only 1/3 of the power that exists. Thus it is the duty of all to resist his venal plans for an unneeded monument.

[Deleted]

The older I get the more fascinated I am that a document created in the late 1700's established a government that was able to herd 13 cats together then and holds 50 states together over 200 years later with a brilliantly designed separation of powers.