swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2019 11:58:36 GMT -5
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wvugurl26
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Post by wvugurl26 on Feb 12, 2019 12:16:14 GMT -5
It's interesting. I don't know what the answer is.
If I had a kid right now, daycare would be more than our mortgage easily. Obviously there's licensing, insurance, payroll and facility costs but it seems super high when I know the employees aren't making squat comparatively.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Feb 12, 2019 12:22:35 GMT -5
Pretty accurate I'd say- especially when it comes to more "average" income jobs.
According to google the average family income in Minnesota is $75,000. Average daycare cost per month, per infant or toddler is $972.
Using round numbers- if each parent makes approximately $40,000 per year (gross) and you take out say 30% for taxes and other payroll burdens (insurance, 401K) it will leave them with a net take home of $28,000 per year. Or $538 per week. Daycare costs at $972 per month per kid would be $224.31 (972 x 12 months divided by 52 weeks). If you have two kids in daycare you're spending $448.62 per week in day care to take home $538 per week. Giving you an after daycare income of $90. That $90 would in theory have to cover fuel to get to and from your job. Work clothes/shoes. Lunches at work. Potentially parking if you work downtown.
I have a lot of friends, all college grads, that were stay at home moms until the last kid went to school for this very reason. If you have more than two kids, unless you are in a higher income career it's difficult to swing daycare costs. I lucked out and the Boy's daycare never cost us more than $100 per week- we had a sweet gig lined up. But even 10 years ago when my nephew was in a preschool daycare program at a local daycare center my sister was paying nearly $200 a week then. Plus after school care for his older sister.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Feb 12, 2019 12:32:24 GMT -5
My mom helped me, I didn't make enough after staying home so many years to pay it in our area.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 12, 2019 12:37:27 GMT -5
Pretty accurate I'd say- especially when it comes to more "average" income jobs.
According to google the average family income in Minnesota is $75,000. Average daycare cost per month, per infant or toddler is $972.
Using round numbers- if each parent makes approximately $40,000 per year (gross) and you take out say 30% for taxes and other payroll burdens (insurance, 401K) it will leave them with a net take home of $28,000 per year. Or $538 per week. Daycare costs at $972 per month per kid would be $224.31 (972 x 12 months divided by 52 weeks). If you have two kids in daycare you're spending $448.62 per week in day care to take home $538 per week. Giving you an after daycare income of $90. That $90 would in theory have to cover fuel to get to and from your job. Work clothes/shoes. Lunches at work. Potentially parking if you work downtown.
I have a lot of friends, all college grads, that were stay at home moms until the last kid went to school for this very reason. If you have more than two kids, unless you are in a higher income career it's difficult to swing daycare costs. I lucked out and the Boy's daycare never cost us more than $100 per week- we had a sweet gig lined up. But even 10 years ago when my nephew was in a preschool daycare program at a local daycare center my sister was paying nearly $200 a week then. Plus after school care for his older sister. Not to mention average means 50% of families have less income than that - so a whole lot wouldn't even have the $90/week left over.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 12, 2019 12:51:09 GMT -5
It's interesting. I don't know what the answer is. If I had a kid right now, daycare would be more than our mortgage easily. Obviously there's licensing, insurance, payroll and facility costs but it seems super high when I know the employees aren't making squat comparatively. For many women I suspect daycare = or is greater than their take home pay. Which might be do able in a double income household (with the plan that daycare costs don't last forever - and NOT going to work will effect a career type job and the higher pay it will bring in the future.) Also this isn't a new problem... over 25 years ago my Boss had her first baby and she was overwhelmed by the daycare costs and did "complain" a bit that she was working to pay for someone else to take care of her kid. When she had her second baby she had two kids in daycare -- untlil she worked out some deal with our employer to go part-time (between her MIL helping out and her being home and having some deal with the daycare place - she was able to cut some of the costs).
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 12, 2019 12:58:25 GMT -5
I tend to agree and I think a lot of the points and sources in the article makes sense. The high daycare costs also undoubtedly have a hand in our lowering birth rate - which is going to cause a lot of problems down the line. Who's going to keep paying into SS in order to sustain it? We're already facing down problems with that due to the lower birth rates after the baby boom, the rates continuing to decline are not good.
Honestly, the more I sit around a think about it and look at things it seems like the US hit a plateau a few decades ago and beyond increasing our tech we haven't done much to better lives as a whole. We're just getting left behind by other countries.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 12, 2019 12:58:44 GMT -5
"Kids are a financial responsibility that you are supposed to start saving for from the time of your own birth, and if you can't afford the best daycare money can buy, you shouldn't have kids. No one else should have to shoulder the burden because of your own irresponsibility." Does that cover it?
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 12, 2019 13:06:13 GMT -5
My jaded side just views this as another way women get shortchanged and are second class citizens. As a woman a lot of my 'choices' come with some pretty high price tags - and they may not all be monetary costs.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 12, 2019 13:10:38 GMT -5
"Kids are a financial responsibility that you are supposed to start saving for from the time of your own birth, and if you can't afford the best daycare money can buy, you shouldn't have kids. No one else should have to shoulder the burden because of your own irresponsibility." Does that cover it? Don't forget to keep your legs together, you whore!!!
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spartyparty
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Post by spartyparty on Feb 12, 2019 13:16:04 GMT -5
"Kids are a financial responsibility that you are supposed to start saving for from the time of your own birth, and if you can't afford the best daycare money can buy, you shouldn't have kids. No one else should have to shoulder the burden because of your own irresponsibility." Does that cover it? Don't forget to keep your legs together, you whore!!! Now that covers it to a T!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Feb 12, 2019 13:17:04 GMT -5
"Kids are a financial responsibility that you are supposed to start saving for from the time of your own birth, and if you can't afford the best daycare money can buy, you shouldn't have kids. No one else should have to shoulder the burden because of your own irresponsibility." Does that cover it? Don't forget to keep your legs together, you whore!!! because we all know that only women are responsible for a pregnancy!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 12, 2019 13:32:30 GMT -5
"Kids are a financial responsibility that you are supposed to start saving for from the time of your own birth, and if you can't afford the best daycare money can buy, you shouldn't have kids. No one else should have to shoulder the burden because of your own irresponsibility." Does that cover it? Don't forget to keep your legs together, you whore!!! Wasn't there something about aspirin as well? Forgot what dinosaur mentioned that in the discussions about whether providing BC coverage should be a mandatory part of HC insurance.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Feb 12, 2019 13:59:02 GMT -5
As someone who just spent $600 for a week of swim camp for the summer.... yeah, childcare is really expensive.
Right now, in Seattle, infant care at a center is around $2500/month. I'm guessing in-home care is a little cheaper, but if you're working full time, it's hard to make their hours/vacations/days closed work. I needed the reliability of a center for my kid and career. When she was 5 it was around $1800 a month. It's probably more now.
It is better now that she's in school, but for all those days that are closed for planning, snow days, etc. The costs are around $75/day for care or $350/week. This is on top of the "after care" we already pay for which is again, not cheap. Summer camps run weekly here are around $400-$600/week including before/after care. Because 9 to 2 doesn't help anybody.
Luckily my salary (and spouse's..) is high enough that we can afford it. But $2500x12 is 30k a year, before taxes! So, yeah... I know people who work just to essentially pay for day care, get health insurance, and 3% contributed to their retirement accounts.
What would help? -Longer maternity leave- even if unpaid, I would have happily taken more unpaid leave than what was allowed by FMEA. -Higher tax credits? I dunno. I haven't done my taxes this year... what do you get, $5500 to write off? That's like chump change here. - More flexible working arrangements, working from home, telecommuting, job share, etc. would help.
I dunno. It costs a lot.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 12, 2019 14:14:31 GMT -5
The US definitely needs to pull its head out of its bicentennial or something and finally put in to action paid maternity leave. I'd be happy if heads came out of asses enough to give even 8 weeks paid, but I honestly think Canada's system is a good one and should be modeled. I lean towards just subsidizing child care instead of giving credits. For one, struggling parents would need the money when they're paying the daycare bill not a lump sump the next year. ETA: Looked it up because it varies by province. Quebec just gives every family with a child under 18 an amount based on income & # of kids. Whereas Ontario requires a contribution from the parents and pays anything over that if childcare costs exceed the parental contribution. That method is intriguing because it has everyone contribute the same amount based on income so those that live in HCOLA or areas with limited child care choices (and likely higher costs). It's based on a certain percent of income in a couple of tiers. globalnews.ca/news/2985338/child-care-subsidies-what-parents-in-every-province-need-to-know/
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steph08
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Post by steph08 on Feb 12, 2019 14:46:33 GMT -5
Yes, daycare is expensive. Yes, it's why we limited the number of kids we had to 2 (we would have stopped there anyway). Yes, that is $1600/month we could be using to stimulate the economy. Yes, if I didn't have a good-paying job (for this area - nowhere near six figures), I wouldn't be bringing home anything after daycare costs - that would have been true when I was first out of college making $33k.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Feb 12, 2019 14:53:19 GMT -5
As someone who just spent $600 for a week of swim camp for the summer.... yeah, childcare is really expensive. Right now, in Seattle, infant care at a center is around $2500/month. I'm guessing in-home care is a little cheaper, but if you're working full time, it's hard to make their hours/vacations/days closed work. I needed the reliability of a center for my kid and career. When she was 5 it was around $1800 a month. It's probably more now. It is better now that she's in school, but for all those days that are closed for planning, snow days, etc. The costs are around $75/day for care or $350/week. This is on top of the "after care" we already pay for which is again, not cheap. Summer camps run weekly here are around $400-$600/week including before/after care. Because 9 to 2 doesn't help anybody. Luckily my salary (and spouse's..) is high enough that we can afford it. But $2500x12 is 30k a year, before taxes! So, yeah... I know people who work just to essentially pay for day care, get health insurance, and 3% contributed to their retirement accounts. What would help? -Longer maternity leave- even if unpaid, I would have happily taken more unpaid leave than what was allowed by FMEA. -Higher tax credits? I dunno. I haven't done my taxes this year... what do you get, $5500 to write off? That's like chump change here. - More flexible working arrangements, working from home, telecommuting, job share, etc. would help. I dunno. It costs a lot. At least seattle has a decent average family income. (google showed me about 100K)
Infant daycare in my city is creeping up to 2K in a good center. Average family salary is 60K in my city. That's a lot harder to swallow. I think there's more to declining birth rates than daycare. And free daycare won't solve why families are choosing to have 1 kid.. I think having kids is treated more like an experience, like taking a cruise or eating out at a really nice restaurant.
Parenting is seen as being hard now, even if the kids are easy. It's seen as a sacrifice.
We have more choices on how to spend our money than in the past. Going to Disney every year (or taking 5-10K vacations every year) wasn't a big thing when I was growing up. Neither was having to drive a big car (SUV) because you now have to transport a stroller. Being done with having kids quickly so you could have a mommy make-over (tummy tuck and breast work done) wasn't a thing. Parents aren't allowed to be good enough parents anymore. That's negligent.
Free daycare won't help the sandwich generation..or work/life balance in general.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 15:13:23 GMT -5
Pretty accurate I'd say- especially when it comes to more "average" income jobs.
According to google the average family income in Minnesota is $75,000. Average daycare cost per month, per infant or toddler is $972.
Using round numbers- if each parent makes approximately $40,000 per year (gross) and you take out say 30% for taxes and other payroll burdens (insurance, 401K) it will leave them with a net take home of $28,000 per year. Or $538 per week. Daycare costs at $972 per month per kid would be $224.31 (972 x 12 months divided by 52 weeks). If you have two kids in daycare you're spending $448.62 per week in day care to take home $538 per week. Giving you an after daycare income of $90. That $90 would in theory have to cover fuel to get to and from your job. Work clothes/shoes. Lunches at work. Potentially parking if you work downtown.
I have a lot of friends, all college grads, that were stay at home moms until the last kid went to school for this very reason. If you have more than two kids, unless you are in a higher income career it's difficult to swing daycare costs. I lucked out and the Boy's daycare never cost us more than $100 per week- we had a sweet gig lined up. But even 10 years ago when my nephew was in a preschool daycare program at a local daycare center my sister was paying nearly $200 a week then. Plus after school care for his older sister. Not to mention average means 50% of families have less income than that - so a whole lot wouldn't even have the $90/week left over. Of course the daycare cost is the average for the state too. I only made about 60% the average income but the most I ever paid for fulltime childcare was 6500/year and I got almost 30% of that back in dependent care tax breaks.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 12, 2019 15:20:10 GMT -5
The US definitely needs to pull its head out of its bicentennial or something and finally put in to action paid maternity leave. I'd be happy if heads came out of asses enough to give even 8 weeks paid, but I honestly think Canada's system is a good one and should be modeled. I lean towards just subsidizing child care instead of giving credits. For one, struggling parents would need the money when they're paying the daycare bill not a lump sump the next year. ETA: Looked it up because it varies by province. Quebec just gives every family with a child under 18 an amount based on income & # of kids. Whereas Ontario requires a contribution from the parents and pays anything over that if childcare costs exceed the parental contribution. That method is intriguing because it has everyone contribute the same amount based on income so those that live in HCOLA or areas with limited child care choices (and likely higher costs). It's based on a certain percent of income in a couple of tiers. globalnews.ca/news/2985338/child-care-subsidies-what-parents-in-every-province-need-to-know/Quebec also gives a year of paid maternity/paternity leave and daycare costs $140 a month for the average Joe. It will never happen in the USA....it's socialism, dontcha know? We WANT women to go back to work, so her job is secure while on mat leave, and daycare is more than affordable. From the link.... American politics has a deeply embedded sexist streak, and family policies—such as child care and paid leave— have traditionally been treated as softer, second-tier concerns, in part because they’ve been seen as “women’s issues.” Here, womens' issues are paramount, not a "second-tier concern."
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 12, 2019 15:25:46 GMT -5
Not to mention average means 50% of families have less income than that - so a whole lot wouldn't even have the $90/week left over. Of course the daycare cost is the average for the state too. I only made about 60% the average income but the most I ever paid for fulltime childcare was 6500/year and I got almost 30% of that back in dependent care tax breaks. But, presumably (don't have kids so don't know this part of taxes) those with much higher expenses wouldn't get nearly as a high a percent back. There's a cap on the max back, right? So those paying $24k a year for daycare aren't getting $8k in corresponding tax breaks, correct?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2019 16:13:45 GMT -5
Of course the daycare cost is the average for the state too. I only made about 60% the average income but the most I ever paid for fulltime childcare was 6500/year and I got almost 30% of that back in dependent care tax breaks. But, presumably (don't have kids so don't know this part of taxes) those with much higher expenses wouldn't get nearly as a high a percent back. There's a cap on the max back, right? So those paying $24k a year for daycare aren't getting $8k in corresponding tax breaks, correct? Right. The cap is 6K expenses for 2. Just pointing out that the lower incomes aren't totally hosed in LCOL areas because daycare costs are cheaper and you get a higher percentage of it back.
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MN-Investor
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Post by MN-Investor on Feb 12, 2019 16:52:52 GMT -5
Two points: The average number of children American mothers are having has been decreasing. Right wing posters bemoan that fact, but then they'll also bitch about people not being financially responsible. Those are two sides to the same coin. People wonder why young folks stay in their rural towns where the jobs are limited. There may be more opportunities in large cities, but not necessarily enough to make it worth while when day care costs are factored in. How many relatives provide free or low cost day care in the rural hometowns?
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Feb 12, 2019 17:51:10 GMT -5
The US definitely needs to pull its head out of its bicentennial or something and finally put in to action paid maternity leave. I'd be happy if heads came out of asses enough to give even 8 weeks paid, but I honestly think Canada's system is a good one and should be modeled. I lean towards just subsidizing child care instead of giving credits. For one, struggling parents would need the money when they're paying the daycare bill not a lump sump the next year. ETA: Looked it up because it varies by province. Quebec just gives every family with a child under 18 an amount based on income & # of kids. Whereas Ontario requires a contribution from the parents and pays anything over that if childcare costs exceed the parental contribution. That method is intriguing because it has everyone contribute the same amount based on income so those that live in HCOLA or areas with limited child care choices (and likely higher costs). It's based on a certain percent of income in a couple of tiers. globalnews.ca/news/2985338/child-care-subsidies-what-parents-in-every-province-need-to-know/Quebec also gives a year of paid maternity/paternity leave and daycare costs $140 a month for the average Joe. It will never happen in the USA....it's socialism, dontcha know? We WANT women to go back to work, so her job is secure while on mat leave, and daycare is more than affordable. From the link.... American politics has a deeply embedded sexist streak, and family policies—such as child care and paid leave— have traditionally been treated as softer, second-tier concerns, in part because they’ve been seen as “women’s issues.” Here, womens' issues are paramount, not a "second-tier concern." There's all kinds of sexism involved. If you put your kids in daycare fulltime, you're a shitty mom. If you leave at quitting time every day to pick up your kids from said daycare, you're a shitty employee. You just can't win.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Feb 12, 2019 17:57:10 GMT -5
POTD!
The link to the NYT op-ed is also worth burning free articles.
I don't have kids but what we are doing to ourselves is kinda nuts.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Feb 13, 2019 8:06:56 GMT -5
Also, I would venture to say that the great majority of day care providers/workers are women who are entitled to earn pay that is commensurate with the enormous responsibility and importance of caring for a child.
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Feb 13, 2019 8:50:41 GMT -5
Also, I would venture to say that the great majority of day care providers/workers are women who are entitled to earn pay that is commensurate with the enormous responsibility and importance of caring for a child.
Not only that, but a lot of them are single moms who are also paying for daycare in order to work. Around here, daycare teachers get 50%. DH nets $1400/month and we were paying $500 for our preschooler -> net $900/month. If you want healthcare for yourself and a child, subtract $150 -> net $750/month. Oh, don't forget the deductible is $1000 so you probably can't afford to use the healthcare anyway.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 13, 2019 9:12:58 GMT -5
Also, I would venture to say that the great majority of day care providers/workers are women who are entitled to earn pay that is commensurate with the enormous responsibility and importance of caring for a child.
Nobody is entitled to any level of pay just because their job is "important"...pay is based on supply and demand...and there is an enormous supply of people who are able to fill day care provider jobs. There are lots of jobs which don't require any special skills which are VERY important, but they could be done by many many people. (You can argue they are skilled, but all that is subjective and varies, I'm speaking really to the qualifications to do the job, which in my state is that you are 18, and if you want to be licensed you need a HS diploma or GED). This doesn't mean there aren't some very good workers out there, in fact that's why we take our kids to a daycare 10 minutes away in a different town in a direction neither of us work...as opposed to the numerous in-home daycares in our town or the center in our town...they are much much better. Some are going to be entitled to earn pay because they are very GOOD at their job, and as such have a different supply/demand dynamic...but nobody is entitled to a specific level of pay above minimum wage for doing low skill work that most of the population is perfectly qualified to do.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Feb 13, 2019 9:46:40 GMT -5
Also, I would venture to say that the great majority of day care providers/workers are women who are entitled to earn pay that is commensurate with the enormous responsibility and importance of caring for a child.
This isn't exactly true/accurate. Yes- I fully believe that teachers and caregivers are amazing and should be paid accordingly. However, most daycare centers pay their daycare workers peanuts. One of my extra kids worked at a daycare while in high school/college. She made minimum wage. Her co-workers that had been there longer make I think $0.50 more an hour than her. A close friend of mine has a bachelor's in early education and is certified to teach elementary school- as a pre-school teacher she is not well paid.
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tcu2003
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Post by tcu2003 on Feb 13, 2019 10:24:19 GMT -5
Also, I would venture to say that the great majority of day care providers/workers are women who are entitled to earn pay that is commensurate with the enormous responsibility and importance of caring for a child.
This isn't exactly true/accurate. Yes- I fully believe that teachers and caregivers are amazing and should be paid accordingly. However, most daycare centers pay their daycare workers peanuts. One of my extra kids worked at a daycare while in high school/college. She made minimum wage. Her co-workers that had been there longer make I think $0.50 more an hour than her. A close friend of mine has a bachelor's in early education and is certified to teach elementary school- as a pre-school teacher she is not well paid. This lines up with my experience having sent babies/toddlers to two different center daycares in two different states. Daycare workers are paid peanuts, and many of them are working second (and sometimes) third jobs to make ends meet.
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sheilaincali
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Post by sheilaincali on Feb 13, 2019 10:44:47 GMT -5
It's the same situation with adult group homes/care facilities for people with developmental disabilities. My town has several of these companies and I am the Board President for a local non profit that works with the DD population. The care givers are paid squat and there's a really high turnover.
You would think we'd place a higher value on the people we are hiring to care for our loved ones but once corporations get involved they screw the worker and reap the benefits for themselves.
Google is telling me that most daycare can have 8 toddlers in a room with two teachers. So 8 toddlers at an average (MN) of $220 per kid equals = $1760.00 weekly "income" for that room of toddlers. 2 daycare workers at say $10 per hour (for large employers Minimum wage in MN is $9.86) at 40 hour per week will cost the daycare center $800. Leaving the center $960 per toddler room for overhead expenses.
That seems like a lot to me. That's 120% for overhead? Dayum, If I could get away with tacking 120 percent for overhead on all of my road project bids I'd be freaking rich. We only factor in 20% for overhead and profit.
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