Basic Income did not produce

[jkapp]

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47169549

Finland basic income trial left people 'happier but jobless'

Giving jobless people in Finland a basic income for two years did not lead them to find work, researchers said.

Did it get them working? NO.

Did it get them to start their own businesses?  NO.

Did it get the out of poverty?  NO.

So what did it do?  It made the people who received it happier.  Well who wouldn't be happy to get money for nothing?   I mean that's a basic tenet of of socialism: the ones who receive the benefits love it, but the ones who pay for those benefits not so much

[OldCoyote]

What a coincidence,, Alexanderia Ocasio Cortez Green New Deal will give people that won't work money or benefits!!!

I am all for this if the Liberal Socialist are the one's that have to pay for it!!!

Wooooo Hooooo, Money for nothing and the chicks are free,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,   Hmmmmm, where did I hear that before?

[tallguy]

Probably from someone in dire straits.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 10, 2019 18:35:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

  Well who wouldn't be happy to get money for nothing?   I mean that's a basic tenet of of socialism: the ones who receive the benefits love it, but the ones who pay for those benefits not so much

that sounded like a rhetorical question, and the way it was phrased, it probably is. but what happens if you phrase it this way:

"who wouldn't be happier having to ask for a handout?"

the answer is: surprisingly few people. depending on which study you read, the number varies from the teens to single digit percentages.

so, if the premise is false, the conclusion doesn't follow, logically.

[djAdvocate]

NOTE: I realize that my reply didn't respond to the Finnish model. it was a separate point about our OWN system.

[resolution]

That is a shame that it didn't work. We are going to have to find some kind of solution for unskilled workers once automation takes over the unskilled jobs. My supermarket is already running a robot through all the shopping aisles in addition to self checkout.


www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/01/14/giant-food-stores-will-place-robotic-assistants-inside-locations-company-says/?utm_term=.6fd83a80d4c2

[laterbloomer]

I have so many more questions about the results. What is the unemployment rate in Finland? Were people actively looking for work or did they stop looking because they had the basic income? Were there a lot of jobs going unfilled? Were they any less likely to find work? Was there a difference in the cost of other services unemployed people consumed?

I've never seen guaranteed income promoted as an employment program. I would never have expected it to serve that purpose. To me this doesn't look any different than our Employment Insurance programs. When unemployment is high the time you can claim benefits is extended.

[happyhoix]

Feb 10, 2019 19:38:28 GMT -5 laterbloomer said:

I have so many more questions about the results. What is the unemployment rate in Finland? Were people actively looking for work or did they stop looking because they had the basic income? Were there a lot of jobs going unfilled? Were they any less likely to find work? Was there a difference in the cost of other services unemployed people consumed?

I've never seen guaranteed income promoted as an employment program. I would never have expected it to serve that purpose. To me this doesn't look any different than our Employment Insurance programs. When unemployment is high the time you can claim benefits is extended.

I haven't seen it promoted as a way to get people to full employment, either.

I've seen it suggested to replace all the service jobs/driving jobs that will rapidly disappear in the next couple decades due to automation. I can see that in my own industry - we are pushing hard to replace human beings with highly automated lines that run with only a handful of humans, compared to 20 - 30 in the past.

The idea was, when all these jobs dry up, we start paying people an amount they can live on, which would enable them to be volunteers, or artists, or take care of families. It's an alternative to suddenly having a huge number of unemployed people flood the market (and the shelters and soup kitchens).

[djAdvocate]

it's also an alternative to what we saw in the early 30's, where able bodied workers, unable to find work, were starving, along with their families, and living in the streets.

[Tiny]

The "experiment" isn't complete yet. Another thing to consider is that the amount wasn't enough to cover ALL basic expenses (shelter and food).

I thought I had read in another article that some of the recipients did have jobs - sometimes lots of them but weren't making enough $$ to cover all their basic expenses on a consistent monthly basis.

Another issue is that there are often "income level" rules and if you earn too much in a month you get kicked off "welfare"... which sucks if your hustles (having many low paying sporadic jobs) dry up for a month or two.

I think that part of the experiment was that the recipients WOULD NOT loose the "basic income" income even if they had a good month or two or three and earned more money than usual.

I think what everyone misses about the idea of basic income is that it's Ulterior Motive is to give people LESS welfare support. What's better? Helping people who ONLY have access to low paying/inconsistent pay jobs to take those jobs (by providing some "base" amount of $$ and NOT punishing them with loss of that base money when they earn money) OR to discourage people from taking the low paying/inconsistent pay jobs because they will loose their welfare income if they earn too much?

The other alternative would be to force employers to pay a "living wage" for the most menial of jobs.   
 (I read somewhere that Japan resorted to creating jobs with living wages to keep everyone employed and housed - so businesses would hire "greeters" who's sole job was to welcome employees coming and going thru the office doors ALL day.    And the pay scale  for this useless job was good.)  

[Gardening Grandma]

Feb 11, 2019 11:13:57 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

it's also an alternative to what we saw in the early 30's, where able bodied workers, unable to find work, were starving, along with their families, and living in the streets.

I’d say it’s a better alternative than the above

[haapai]

I tried following the links in the BBC link provided in order to get more information on the story but didn't learn much.  A search of google news was quite a bit more instructive.  By clicking on enough articles, I was able to determine that the payments that the lucky 2000 received were pretty much the same as what they would have received from unemployment and that the results released so far are only the results of the first year of the two-year study. 

If you want to do your own search, you can do yourself a huge favor by clicking on a couple of articles that aren't coming from your preferred ideological corner.  Doing that will give you a sense of how little data is currently being reported and how various news organizations are spinning the scant information available.  It's really quite amazing how ideological most of the reporting on this trial is. 

[weltschmerz]

Feb 10, 2019 18:35:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47169549

Finland basic income trial left people 'happier but jobless'

Giving jobless people in Finland a basic income for two years did not lead them to find work, researchers said.

Did it get them working? NO.

Did it get them to start their own businesses?  NO.

Did it get the out of poverty?  NO.

So what did it do?  It made the people who received it happier.  Well who wouldn't be happy to get money for nothing?   I mean that's a basic tenet of of socialism: the ones who receive the benefits love it, but the ones who pay for those benefits not so much

If it made people happier, healthier and less uncertain about the future, it DID produce.
Why do American conservatives measure everything in cold, hard cash?

[weltschmerz]

The real benefits so far have come in terms of health and well being. The 2,000 participants were surveyed, along with a control group of 5,000. Compared with the control group, those taking part had “clearly fewer problems related to health, stress, mood and concentration,” said Minna Ylikännö, senior researcher at Kela. Results also showed people had more trust in their future and their ability to influence it.

“Constant stress and financial stress for the long term – it’s unbearable. And when we give money to people once a month they know what they are going to get,” said Ylikännö. “It was just €560 a month, but it gives you certainty, and certainty about the future is always a fundamental thing about well being.”

www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/universal-basic-income-finland-ontario-stockton_us_5c5c3679e4b00187b558e5ab?ec_carp=3691723899866291099

[djAdvocate]

It has been shown that the ability to obtain welfare also leads to people taking employment risks like getting their skills upgraded at the local Junior College, or taking a training program at a private institution, rather than staying stuck in a dead end job. I would argue that this risk taking is very good for the economy, as well as the individuals in it.

[OldCoyote]

Many years ago, some U.S. government employee, did something very similar,

The group that they gave the money to,, was the Hell's Angels,,

The thought was if you gave them money, they would turn into productive Angel citizens.

Want to guess what the Hell's Angels did with the money?

[Tiny]

Feb 11, 2019 23:58:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 10, 2019 18:35:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47169549

Finland basic income trial left people 'happier but jobless'

Giving jobless people in Finland a basic income for two years did not lead them to find work, researchers said.

Did it get them working? NO.

Did it get them to start their own businesses?  NO.

Did it get the out of poverty?  NO.

So what did it do?  It made the people who received it happier.  Well who wouldn't be happy to get money for nothing?   I mean that's a basic tenet of of socialism: the ones who receive the benefits love it, but the ones who pay for those benefits not so much

If it made people happier, healthier and less uncertain about the future, it DID produce.
Why do American conservatives measure everything in cold, hard cash?

I suspect that's what they use to measure their self worth.  If it's good enough to determine their own value in their own eyes it's good enough to measure every thing else.    

[OldCoyote]

Feb 12, 2019 23:32:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

Feb 11, 2019 23:58:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

If it made people happier, healthier and less uncertain about the future, it DID produce.
Why do American conservatives measure everything in cold, hard cash?

I suspect that's what they use to measure their self worth.  If it's good enough to determine their own value in their own eyes it's good enough to measure every thing else.    

Yes, yes, after posting on this board for some time the beatings I get here have seriously affected my Self Worth,,, Yes, Yes really,, I need free money so I can reclaim my self worth!!

I most certainly would be much more happy if all of you that have so badly hurt O.C. errrrr, Anonymous feelings,, please reach deeply into your pockets send cash,,, lot's of cash,,,,,,,,,,,,

PM me for an Anonymous P.O. box number,,, And please after you send all that free cash,, That I need to regain my self worth,

Why We are on this subject,, let's talk about those disparaging thing you post to my posts,,,

Yes, Yes,, you have to stop it,, cause it will only cause me to lose Self Worth,, you will need to send more free money!!

[tallguy]

I'll send you a dime if you promise to go buy a clue.  Oh, hell, here's one.  It's a real big one so should make you feel a LOT better.

[Tiny]

Feb 12, 2019 9:27:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

It has been shown that the ability to obtain welfare also leads to people taking employment risks like getting their skills upgraded at the local Junior College, or taking a training program at a private institution, rather than staying stuck in a dead end job. I would argue that this risk taking is very good for the economy, as well as the individuals in it.

I would think that some financial stability would also lead some people to NOT take risky illegal money making opportunities that eventually lead to worse crimes or being caught.    Women and teenagers, especially.    It's easier to stay on the "right" path when you aren't making "survival" type decisions on a daily basis.   

[OldCoyote]

Feb 13, 2019 9:43:47 GMT -5 tallguy said:

I'll send you a dime if you promise to go buy a clue.  Oh, hell, here's one.  It's a real big one so should make you feel a LOT better.

Wooooo Hooooooo, BIG money!!!

[OldCoyote]

Who's money were you spending,, I am pretty sure it was not your own,,

Liberals are great at spending other people money!

[Tiny]

Feb 13, 2019 8:41:00 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Feb 12, 2019 23:32:07 GMT -5 Tiny said:

I suspect that's what they use to measure their self worth.  If it's good enough to determine their own value in their own eyes it's good enough to measure every thing else.    

Yes, yes, after posting on this board for some time the beatings I get here have seriously affected my Self Worth,,, Yes, Yes really,, I need free money so I can reclaim my self worth!!

I most certainly would be much more happy if all of you that have so badly hurt O.C. errrrr, Anonymous feelings,, please reach deeply into your pockets send cash,,, lot's of cash,,,,,,,,,,,,

PM me for an Anonymous P.O. box number,,, And please after you send all that free cash,, That I need to regain my self worth,

Why We are on this subject,, let's talk about those disparaging thing you post to my posts,,,

Yes, Yes,, you have to stop it,, cause it will only cause me to lose Self Worth,, you will need to send more free money!!

 I'm sorry.  Oddly enough your leading statements/arguments remind me of the people in my life who drink too much/get high.   And I just can't help myself from poking the "bear" to elicit a rant - it's a control thing.   I'll stop.  Sorry I made you dance.      

[OldCoyote]

Ti4ny, You can give people money, a certain amount will use the money for no good, some will use the money to exist, some will use the money to move up,

and a small amount will take that money use it to skyrocket to success.

That said, people will do just about the same without giving them money,, those that truly want to succeed will!!!  those that want to get high on alcohol and drug will!!

You only need to look at poster on this board, that have the motivation to take what had and run with it!

[jkapp]

Feb 11, 2019 23:58:14 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Feb 10, 2019 18:35:48 GMT -5 jkapp said:

www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47169549

Finland basic income trial left people 'happier but jobless'

Giving jobless people in Finland a basic income for two years did not lead them to find work, researchers said.

Did it get them working? NO.

Did it get them to start their own businesses?  NO.

Did it get the out of poverty?  NO.

So what did it do?  It made the people who received it happier.  Well who wouldn't be happy to get money for nothing?   I mean that's a basic tenet of of socialism: the ones who receive the benefits love it, but the ones who pay for those benefits not so much

If it made people happier, healthier and less uncertain about the future, it DID produce.
Why do American conservatives measure everything in cold, hard cash?

Because all social programs take cold, hard cash from taxpayers and hand it out to others.

[jkapp]

Feb 12, 2019 9:27:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

It has been shown that the ability to obtain welfare also leads to people taking employment risks like getting their skills upgraded at the local Junior College, or taking a training program at a private institution, rather than staying stuck in a dead end job. I would argue that this risk taking is very good for the economy, as well as the individuals in it.

Except that didn't happen in Finland..they just took the money and sat on their asses

The Basic Income is also supposed to get people more comfortable in taking jobs that pay less because the BI would make up some of the difference.  But that didn't happen either.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 14, 2019 21:33:31 GMT -5 jkapp said:

Feb 12, 2019 9:27:01 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

It has been shown that the ability to obtain welfare also leads to people taking employment risks like getting their skills upgraded at the local Junior College, or taking a training program at a private institution, rather than staying stuck in a dead end job. I would argue that this risk taking is very good for the economy, as well as the individuals in it.

Except that didn't happen in Finland..they just took the money and sat on their asses

The Basic Income is also supposed to get people more comfortable in taking jobs that pay less because the BI would make up some of the difference.  But that didn't happen either.

I made it clear earlier that I wasn't addressing Finland's system because I don't have any experience with it.

I realize that it is diverting your thread, so I will take the discussion elsewhere if you wish.