billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 11, 2019 18:35:56 GMT -5
I have cut off contact with anti-vaxxer friends. I can't say that I *hate* them, but I am frustrated at myself for allowing them so much contact to my family knowing that they are anti-vaxxers with ds and my mom having the issues that they do, not to mention my nephew who is not old enough to be fully vaccinated. Frankly their friends, but they're not worth the risk they carry. I'm sure my friend is confused since I just ghosted her. Maybe an explanation would be kinder, but I don't see that going well either. She's the absolute typical stereotype. Do you equate that at all to someone disliking/hating/avoiding someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Or someone disliking/hating/avoiding someone who has a religion which the first person finds distasteful? Is any of that the same as being racist or sexist? ...While it is possible that being exposed to hateful verbalization/behavior towards those who identify as LGBTQ or a person of a particular religion could lead someone to adopt similar thinking, I don't thing people say, "Hey that is a good case of measles. I think I will catch me some of that."
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spartyparty
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Post by spartyparty on Feb 12, 2019 15:11:51 GMT -5
This article points out that vaccinations are not the only reason deaths from measles are way down. link The article itself is promoting vaccinations but if you just look at the raw data without their interpretation you can see that we are not in the middle of an epidemic. If you look at the article the total deaths in the US over 10 years is 11. Not an epidemic in my estimation. From the same article: If you notice though, the death rate for measles got stuck after the 1940s at about 0.2 to 0.3, even as modern medicine continued to advance. That’s about 300 to 500 measles deaths each year in the United States. This was after World War II and through the 1950s and early 1960s, hardly a time of poor hygiene or poor nutrition or when Americans were without access to medical care. It took about 20 years for those deaths to start dropping again, and it took the coming of the measles vaccine to do it. So if we stop vaccinating, we won’t get to 7,000 measles deaths a year again in the United States. Modern medicine has improved a great deal since 1900. We would eventually get to about 320 to 960 measles deaths a year though (using our current population of 320 million people and a measles death rate between 0.1 and 0.3).
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 12, 2019 18:25:28 GMT -5
And even if some people decide that's an acceptably low rate of needless deaths (though not sure who that some would be) it doesn't include the instances of deafness and brain injury measles cause. Or other small lasting effects. Or the monetary impact of treating those instead of having just given them a damn shot.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 12, 2019 18:39:11 GMT -5
And even if some people decide that's an acceptably low rate of needless deaths (though not sure who that some would be) it doesn't include the instances of deafness and brain injury measles cause. Or other small lasting effects. Or the monetary impact of treating those instead of having just given them a damn shot. ....or permanent infertility because you didn't want them to get a MMR shot.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Feb 13, 2019 11:30:25 GMT -5
Do you equate that at all to someone disliking/hating/avoiding someone who identifies as LGBTQ? Or someone disliking/hating/avoiding someone who has a religion which the first person finds distasteful? Is any of that the same as being racist or sexist? ... While it is possible that being exposed to hateful verbalization/behavior towards those who identify as LGBTQ or a person of a particular religion could lead someone to adopt similar thinking, I don't thing people say, "Hey that is a good case of measles. I think I will catch me some of that." Well... I am a baby boomer and I do remember that there were quite a few moms around who would take their kids to visit friends with measles, chicken pox or the like just to get it over with. And even though my mom wasn't one of them I caught just about every contagious childhood ailment around. Mostly because I was immunocompromised for a while when I was little (also the reason mom didn't go around to "get it over with").
Let's get something straight though: parents who choose not to immunize are NOT chosing to catch a disease themselves → they are chosing to let others get sick, to be precise → their children. If a childhood didease ends up with an impairment/infertility or the like they are NOT the ones who will have to suffer from it for all of their lives. Just sayin'
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 13, 2019 13:03:02 GMT -5
While it is possible that being exposed to hateful verbalization/behavior towards those who identify as LGBTQ or a person of a particular religion could lead someone to adopt similar thinking, I don't thing people say, "Hey that is a good case of measles. I think I will catch me some of that." Well... I am a baby boomer and I do remember that there were quite a few moms around who would take their kids to visit friends with measles, chicken pox or the like just to get it over with. And even though my mom wasn't one of them I caught just about every contagious childhood ailment around. Mostly because I was immunocompromised for a while when I was little (also the reason mom didn't go around to "get it over with").
Let's get something straight though: parents who choose not to immunize are NOT chosing to catch a disease themselves → they are chosing to let others get sick, to be precise → their children. If a childhood didease ends up with an impairment/infertility or the like they are NOT the ones who will have to suffer from it for all of their lives. Just sayin'
And so I hate people who hurt children. (I'm not a perfect parent. I've intermittently spanked my kids, yelled at them, etc.) I hate parents who neglect their children, who abuse their children. I'm not generally in preference of the death penalty, but I'm all for it when it comes to child molesters, child rapists, child murderers, etc.
Now, I've never found anyone who disagrees with me for hating the group described above. But, if a group of people is doing what they think is best for their children--even if I think it's blatantly wrong--is openly hating them acceptable? Do I get to be that person?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 13, 2019 13:46:48 GMT -5
I repeat, no.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 13, 2019 13:55:49 GMT -5
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I personally think the only exception for vaccines for children going to public schools should be medical. If you're religion doesn't let you get shots, well then if you're that religious you should send them to a religious school. But it also sticks in my craw that the very people crying "big pharma" and "the risks of the vaccine are worse than the disease" are the very ones running to medical professionals and big pharma to help them when they come down with said disease (or actually really any medical ailment). Suddenly these medical professionals know what they're talking about! There's a part of me that thinks that if you know so much better than the entirety of modern medicine that you don't get the vaccines, then you should leave modern medicine alone to treat the disease. To put medical professionals at risk for these diseases when you gratuitously went against their scientifically backed recommendations is messed up and selfish. I know it will never happen though.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 14:13:04 GMT -5
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I personally think the only exception for vaccines for children going to public schools should be medical. If you're religion doesn't let you get shots, well then if you're that religious you should send them to a religious school. But it also sticks in my craw that the very people crying "big pharma" and "the risks of the vaccine are worse than the disease" are the very ones running to medical professionals and big pharma to help them when they come down with said disease (or actually really any medical ailment). Suddenly these medical professionals know what they're talking about! There's a part of me that thinks that if you know so much better than the entirety of modern medicine that you don't get the vaccines, then you should leave modern medicine alone to treat the disease. To put medical professionals at risk for these diseases when you gratuitously went against their scientifically backed recommendations is messed up and selfish. I know it will never happen though. This !!!
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Feb 13, 2019 15:23:27 GMT -5
Well... I am a baby boomer and I do remember that there were quite a few moms around who would take their kids to visit friends with measles, chicken pox or the like just to get it over with. And even though my mom wasn't one of them I caught just about every contagious childhood ailment around. Mostly because I was immunocompromised for a while when I was little (also the reason mom didn't go around to "get it over with").
Let's get something straight though: parents who choose not to immunize are NOT chosing to catch a disease themselves → they are chosing to let others get sick, to be precise → their children. If a childhood didease ends up with an impairment/infertility or the like they are NOT the ones who will have to suffer from it for all of their lives. Just sayin'
And so I hate people who hurt children. (I'm not a perfect parent. I've intermittently spanked my kids, yelled at them, etc.) I hate parents who neglect their children, who abuse their children. I'm not generally in preference of the death penalty, but I'm all for it when it comes to child molesters, child rapists, child murderers, etc.
Now, I've never found anyone who disagrees with me for hating the group described above. But, if a group of people is doing what they think is best for their children--even if I think it's blatantly wrong--is openly hating them acceptable? Do I get to be that person?They are intentionally harming every infant/toddler too young to vaccinate and child/adult who is not medically able to get vaccines therefore must rely on herd-immunity. Without any concern or regard for how their actions could cause the suffering or death of another individual. Also without any warning. When not vaccinating was only religious minorities, outbreaks were typically kept within said religious circles. They knew they weren't vaccinated. The typical family not vaccinating their kids now isn't keeping to any circle. They're at the museum and the pool and everywhere else spreading their germs to anyone and everyone with no regard.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 13, 2019 17:37:06 GMT -5
And so I hate people who hurt children. (I'm not a perfect parent. I've intermittently spanked my kids, yelled at them, etc.) I hate parents who neglect their children, who abuse their children. I'm not generally in preference of the death penalty, but I'm all for it when it comes to child molesters, child rapists, child murderers, etc.
Now, I've never found anyone who disagrees with me for hating the group described above. But, if a group of people is doing what they think is best for their children--even if I think it's blatantly wrong--is openly hating them acceptable? Do I get to be that person? They are intentionally harming every infant/toddler too young to vaccinate and child/adult who is not medically able to get vaccines therefore must rely on herd-immunity. Without any concern or regard for how their actions could cause the suffering or death of another individual. Also without any warning. When not vaccinating was only religious minorities, outbreaks were typically kept within said religious circles. They knew they weren't vaccinated. The typical family not vaccinating their kids now isn't keeping to any circle. They're at the museum and the pool and everywhere else spreading their germs to anyone and everyone with no regard. Frankly it even harms those that get the vaccine. Even those that get the vaccines rely on herd immunity. Vaccines aren't perfect and doesn't guarantee you won't get the disease. While it is very likely that if you've had the vaccine and still get infected it will be a mild form of it - it is not guaranteed. There's still people that die from the flu when they get the flu shot. (And I'm going to bloody scream if someone says if vaccines aren't perfect then why do you get them.)
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Pants
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Post by Pants on Feb 13, 2019 19:03:17 GMT -5
Knee Deep in Water Chloe Please get your flu shot. You are a teacher. My child is immunocompromised. I'm sure there are children in your school who are as well. If you caught a mild case and passed it on to a kid in your class like my daughter, you could put them in the hospital. Hell, you could kill them. I think simply based on your exposure to children on an ongoing basis, you have an actual moral obligation to do so, like I think health care providers have a moral obligation to be vaccinated. Because of my daughters history with Guillain-Barre, her doctors have told us they are willing to write her vaccine exemptions. I said no. With the exception of the flu vaccine, (which she CANNOT get due to her history,) she is and will continue to be fully vaccinated as long as she is under my care. She relies on the goodwill of those around her in the case of the flu. I refuse to let her see relatives who don't get their flu vaccines. I send letters to her classmates parents asking them to vaccinate for flu because she cannot. People think the flu isn't a big deal, but a normal flu season kills thousands or hundreds of thousands of people every year. That's a NORMAL season. Most of those are children and the elderly. Help save my kid. Get a damn flu shot.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 13, 2019 19:16:20 GMT -5
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. I personally think the only exception for vaccines for children going to public schools should be medical. If you're religion doesn't let you get shots, well then if you're that religious you should send them to a religious school. But it also sticks in my craw that the very people crying "big pharma" and "the risks of the vaccine are worse than the disease" are the very ones running to medical professionals and big pharma to help them when they come down with said disease (or actually really any medical ailment). Suddenly these medical professionals know what they're talking about! There's a part of me that thinks that if you know so much better than the entirety of modern medicine that you don't get the vaccines, then you should leave modern medicine alone to treat the disease. To put medical professionals at risk for these diseases when you gratuitously went against their scientifically backed recommendations is messed up and selfish. I know it will never happen though. This !!! No they aren't. The vast majority of them that get any of these ailments ride it out, recover and are immune forevermore.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 13, 2019 19:29:28 GMT -5
No they aren't. The vast majority of them that get any of these ailments ride it out, recover and are immune forevermore. Oh, you mean like tetanus? High death rate and you're not immune forever. Get your kids their DPT shots.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 13, 2019 19:32:27 GMT -5
How about smallpox....extremely deadly and killed 500 million people. The only reason it has been eradicated is VACCINES!
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 13, 2019 20:07:13 GMT -5
No they aren't. The vast majority of them that get any of these ailments ride it out, recover and are immune forevermore. Oh, you mean like tetanus? High death rate and you're not immune forever. Get your kids their DPT shots. No, I mean like measles, mumps and chicken pox. The girls are vaccinated. I repeat, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of getting vaccinated. I'm just saying that those that choose not to vaccinate have reasons for their decisions. They are making what they think is the best decision.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 13, 2019 20:08:46 GMT -5
And my family only gets a tetanus shot when we step on rusty nails and stuff like that.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 13, 2019 20:28:21 GMT -5
They have reasons, sure. Non scientific, illogical, and selfish reasons. But sure, reasons.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 13, 2019 20:32:42 GMT -5
Oh, you mean like tetanus? High death rate and you're not immune forever. Get your kids their DPT shots. No, I mean like measles, mumps and chicken pox. The girls are vaccinated. I repeat, I'm not trying to talk anyone out of getting vaccinated. I'm just saying that those that choose not to vaccinate have reasons for their decisions. They are making what they think is the best decision. Actually, it's not unheard of to get mumps a second time. And you absolutely can get chickenpox again to say nothing about it morphing into shingles. The possibility of death exists with all diseases you mentioned though. And are completely preventable.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 13, 2019 22:21:48 GMT -5
And my family only gets a tetanus shot when we step on rusty nails and stuff like that. You don't get tetanus from rusty nails. It doesn't live in rust. You get it from the bacteria Clostridium tetani, which lives in soil, dirt and dust. All you need is a small cut in your skin, and you can die a very brutal death, and actually break your back from the spasms. Just walking around barefoot in the grass can do it. You should get the tetanus vaccine every 10 years.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 13, 2019 23:00:11 GMT -5
And my family only gets a tetanus shot when we step on rusty nails and stuff like that. You don't get tetanus from rusty nails. It doesn't live in rust. You get it from the bacteria Clostridium tetani, which lives in soil, dirt and dust. All you need is a small cut in your skin, and you can die a very brutal death, and actually break your back from the spasms. Just walking around barefoot in the grass can do it. You should get the tetanus vaccine every 10 years. We step on rusty nails enough that it keeps us vaccinated every 10 years
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 9:26:16 GMT -5
No they aren't. The vast majority of them that get any of these ailments ride it out, recover and are immune forevermore. "Or actually really any medical ailment" as she had in parenthesis, is what was standing out for me in her post.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 14, 2019 10:42:36 GMT -5
No they aren't. The vast majority of them that get any of these ailments ride it out, recover and are immune forevermore. "Or actually really any medical ailment" as she had in parenthesis, is what was standing out for me in her post. Except, they must be going to medical personnel about measles too. (Probably having to ask the doctor what the rash is ) Because if they were just keeping their kid home sick outbreaks wouldn't be known. You don't have to tell the school what illness the kid has when they're home sick - so the only way public health officials know that a lot of people are getting measles is because a doctor reports it. I suppose some could be being reported by school nurses if the kid gets ill at school and they actually have a nurse at the school. I hardly think the parents are self-reporting.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Feb 14, 2019 11:11:17 GMT -5
Can I openly hate people who can't park? If you take up 2 parking spots, I want to key your car
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2019 12:38:27 GMT -5
"Or actually really any medical ailment" as she had in parenthesis, is what was standing out for me in her post. Except, they must be going to medical personnel about measles too. (Probably having to ask the doctor what the rash is ) Because if they were just keeping their kid home sick outbreaks wouldn't be known. You don't have to tell the school what illness the kid has when they're home sick - so the only way public health officials know that a lot of people are getting measles is because a doctor reports it. I suppose some could be being reported by school nurses if the kid gets ill at school and they actually have a nurse at the school. I hardly think the parents are self-reporting. Agreed.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Feb 14, 2019 13:38:25 GMT -5
Can I openly hate people who can't park? If you take up 2 parking spots, I want to key your car I openly hate people that park so close to my car I can't get in the drivers side, or back out of the space! Them I shame them of Facebook.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 14, 2019 13:40:42 GMT -5
They have reasons, sure. Non scientific, illogical, and selfish reasons. But sure, reasons. So do I get to OPENLY hate them if I believe they have non-scientific, illogical, and selfish reasons?
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 14, 2019 13:46:08 GMT -5
Can I openly hate people who can't park? If you take up 2 parking spots, I want to key your car Okay! Here's another example! Great! Because even though some of us have made this about vaccinations specifically, that's not my Big Idea intent.
If I drive my husband's F-250, I always take two verticle spots. That thing doesn't fit in one verticle spot. My choice is to either have 1/4 of the truck sticking out into the parking lot or take two verticle spots.
Do you still want to openly hate me/group of people who take up two spots? Is that justified hate?
I suppose another analogy could be political parties. I don't necessarily want to go down that road though.
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justme
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Post by justme on Feb 14, 2019 13:46:41 GMT -5
They have reasons, sure. Non scientific, illogical, and selfish reasons. But sure, reasons. So do I get to OPENLY hate them if I believe they have non-scientific, illogical, and selfish reasons?I don't tell my SIL I think she's a stupid fucking idiot for not vaccinating her kids for family harmony. I have no problem telling that to other people. And would keep hypothetical children away from those I know that aren't vaccinated. Is that openly hating someone? I'm sure some likely would say that. BTW - There are no scientific, logical, and non-selfish reasons to refuse to vaccinate (with the only exception medical, as that would fall under a scientific reason).
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 14, 2019 13:47:48 GMT -5
Can I openly hate people who can't park? If you take up 2 parking spots, I want to key your car I openly hate people that park so close to my car I can't get in the drivers side, or back out of the space! Them I shame them of Facebook.
So, that version of shaming is okay?
*keep in mind, I'm having a philosophical discussion because I'm bored.
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