Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 13:04:48 GMT -5
This isn't supposed to be a link, but I cannot seem to alter the formatting here: Okay, I have some thoughts and some time. I realize I don't normally participate in this board. I also made the decision that this is current events and not politics, but the powers that might not agree and move it to the politics board.
Link to Kevin Hart story Short end: Kevin Hart expressed anti-LGBTQ thoughts and lost his job as the Acadamy Awards host.
link to Liam Neeson story
Short end: Liam Neeson brought up a story from 40 years ago about how a close relative of his was raped by "a man of color". Neeson got pissed and just wanted to look for and hurt black guys.
Link to Portland/Vancouver Metro Area Measles Outbreak
Short end: There's a measles outbreak in Vancouver, Washington. At least 55 kids have it.
Link to Oregon legislature review of vaccination requirements
Short end: Oregon, being super duper close to Vancouver, is reviewing its policies on who can have an exemption from vaccinations.
I vaccinated my children. While I had a fleeting thought that I didn't want my babies to have a fever following the shots, I never considered not vaccinating them. The one exception is the flu shot. I don't get that, and I've rarely had my children get it.
DH's boys were both fully vaccinated. Our Miss Grandbaby is nine months old and is as up-to-date on vaccinations as possible.
People who don't vaccinate their children piss me off. If my grandbaby gets measles because she's too young to be immunized I'm going to want to hurt the people who caused that.
How is my anger toward those people--the ones protesting government control over parental choice of immunizations--different than Liam Neeson's anger towards "finding the black guy who hurt so-and-so"? Is it different from Kevin Hart not liking anyone in the LGBTQ community?
Yes, I know the obvious answer is that skin color doesn't dictate our thoughts and choices. Being mad at someone because of their skin color--and nothing else--is racist. Not liking someone because of how they identify sexually or with their gender is not justifiable.
More specifically--why is it okay for me to express my outrage at anti-vaxxers? Why is it okay for me to "hate those people"?
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busymom
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Post by busymom on Feb 9, 2019 13:25:37 GMT -5
In our PC world, I don't think we're allowed to "hate" anyone. You can disagree, you can agree to disagree. But IMHO, "hate" is off the table.
(BTW, my Mom had the measles as a baby, and another so-called serious illness before the age of 2. She survived both. But then, her Mom stayed up late, sometimes pulling all-nighters, to make sure her kids weren't getting worse as illnesses progressed.)
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2019 13:36:14 GMT -5
I don't think it's okay to hate anti-vaxxers. They aren't trying to hurt you. They are making what they think is the best decision for them and their kids. I find it hypocritical that you are so judgemental when you are not consistant in your flu vaccinations. I don't either, but I don't judge anti vaxxers so I'm fine.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 9, 2019 13:37:46 GMT -5
The simple answer is that the difference here is that the group itself IS responsible. In the other cases an individual was responsible but the anger was against the group instead. If most or even all anti-vaxxers are white, it makes no sense to hate all whites for that. You can "hate" the subgroup without indicting the entire group.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2019 13:41:44 GMT -5
I think one part of the issue is "choice". People do not evaluate options and make a choice to be a particular race. With this, there is an interesting battle over what attributes are choices. Is sexual orientation a choice? That one is debated less these days but gender is a hot topic. It is more acceptable to hate one for an attribute one chooses. A second part is personal impact. Trivial example would be piercings. Where one puts holes in their body has no significant on another person's life. Part of the illegal immigrant debate is an attempt to convince people that they lower "your" pay. More specifically--why is it okay for me to express my outrage at anti-vaxxers? Why is it okay for me to "hate those people"? Not vaccinating a child is both choice and has the potential to personal impact through family,.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Feb 9, 2019 13:48:26 GMT -5
What is hate? If you look at the definition it is extreme personal dislike. You should be allowed to hate people. You can hate anti Baxter’s, especially if you think they will cause you harm. It is when you take action on that hate that it causes problems with society.
I am allowed to hate my neighbor due to his propensity for loud lawn equipment (an exaggeration) but I cannot shoot at him to get it to stop.
I am ok with Liam Neeson expressing his hate he felt at one time. He did not take action and I think he was just trying to demonstrate how people can change.
Many people on this board express absolute hate for our president. I am pretty sure they all think it is ok because he deserves it.
You can’t dictate peoples feelings, just their actions.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 9, 2019 14:22:14 GMT -5
Anti vaxers choose to endanger other children. That may not be their intent, but the knowingly choose not to vacinate their own children even though they know it endangers others.
I had measles as a child. I cannot adequately describe the utter misery. High fever, itching all over for two weeks with no relief. I could not sleep. I was 10. I cannot imagine a toddler going through that. A parent who willingly chooses to risk their child’s health (and the health of other children) that was is, imo, pond svum.
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ednkris
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Post by ednkris on Feb 9, 2019 20:42:55 GMT -5
I've been labeled as anti vaxer although I'm not against it. I think parents need to educated themselves more on how the vaccine is made. Anyhow as far as hate, personally I think it's a terrible word but I do think it's OK for anyone to dislike anything or anyone else for any reason political correctness be dammed.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 21:18:14 GMT -5
In our PC world, I don't think we're allowed to "hate" anyone. You can disagree, you can agree to disagree. But IMHO, "hate" is off the table. (BTW, my Mom had the measles as a baby, and another so-called serious illness before the age of 2. She survived both. But then, her Mom stayed up late, sometimes pulling all-nighters, to make sure her kids weren't getting worse as illnesses prog ressed.) From Wikipedia: "In November 1962, Dahl's daughter Olivia died of measles encephalitis, age seven. Her death left Dahl "limp with despair", and feeling guilty about not having been able to do anything for her. Dahl subsequently became a proponent of immunization and dedicated his 1982 book The BFG to his daughter."
They stayed up with their daughter. She seemed to have recovered from the measles. Then it changed into encephalitis.
Yes, anecdotally, many and probably most children survive measles and chicken pox and pneumonia. I survived the chicken pox. One of my children survived pneumonia. Why does that mean no one should vaccinate?
I don't actually want to debate the validity of vaccinations. My point is that I don't believe your argument of your mother surviving the measles is a good enough argument for me to not despise anti-vaxxers.
I agree that I shouldn't hate anyone. However, for me, that's a religious discussion.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 21:22:23 GMT -5
I don't think it's okay to hate anti-vaxxers. They aren't trying to hurt you. They are making what they think is the best decision for them and their kids. I find it hypocritical that you are so judgemental when you are not consistant in your flu vaccinations. I don't either, but I don't judge anti vaxxers so I'm fine. Hmmm... in looking for an analogy, could the same be said of those who drive cars? I'm not trying to hurt anyone by driving a car. If I get in an accident, well that's why it's called an accident right? However, If I know the vaccinations create herd immunity, in not having my child get one, am I at a minimum allowing those who cannot be vaccinated to be hurt? By driving a car am I allowing someone to be hurt if there's an accident?
I do understand the hypocrisy of my opinion of the flu vaccine. My problem is that it's not always statistically relevant to preventing the flu. My son's response to that was--and I paraphrase--even it's not statistically in the majority to prevent the flu, why wouldn't I get it?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2019 21:31:18 GMT -5
I don't think it's okay to hate anti-vaxxers. They aren't trying to hurt you. They are making what they think is the best decision for them and their kids. I find it hypocritical that you are so judgemental when you are not consistant in your flu vaccinations. I don't either, but I don't judge anti vaxxers so I'm fine. Hmmm... in looking for an analogy, could the same be said of those who drive cars? I'm not trying to hurt anyone by driving a car. If I get in an accident, well that's why it's called an accident right? Well ya... I don't know that we are within our rights to force people to inject pharmaceuticals. I think there is good reason to be suspicious of research that is bought and paid for by the people standing to profit from the sale of vaccines. I think there is something very wrong with you making me responsible for your health. Measles are a natural phenomenon. I didn't invent it. There is something very wrong with you thinking you can force me to do something that I think is dangerous to my health because you think it will protect yours. ETA - I'm just saying me for the sake of argument. I'm old enough that I didn't get vaccinated against measles, mumps and chicken pox. I actually got them. And otherwise I've had all relevant vaccinations for my age. Except the flu.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2019 21:38:26 GMT -5
I don't think it's okay to hate anti-vaxxers. They aren't trying to hurt you. They are making what they think is the best decision for them and their kids. I find it hypocritical that you are so judgemental when you are not consistant in your flu vaccinations. I don't either, but I don't judge anti vaxxers so I'm fine. Hmmm... in looking for an analogy, could the same be said of those who drive cars? ...Cars with bald tires?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2019 21:47:32 GMT -5
.. I don't know that we are within our rights to force people to inject pharmaceuticals. ... I don't think we are within our rights to force people. I do think we are within our rights to keep non-vaccinated children away from those who are vaccinated.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2019 21:57:18 GMT -5
.. I don't know that we are within our rights to force people to inject pharmaceuticals. ... I don't think we are within our rights to force people. I do think we are within our rights to keep non-vaccinated children away from those who are vaccinated. Why? Vaccinated people are protected. And I repeat, why do I become responsible for your health?
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 22:14:08 GMT -5
The simple answer is that the difference here is that the group itself IS responsible. In the other cases an individual was responsible but the anger was against the group instead. If most or even all anti-vaxxers are white, it makes no sense to hate all whites for that. You can "hate" the subgroup without indicting the entire group. Even if the demographic that is most likely to not vaccinate are white middle class parents? (Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous; I'm just playing out the argument. Why is it not okay to hate one group but not another?)
link to article
Cynthia Leifer, professor in the department of immunology at Cornell University in New York, believes that one of the reasons why parents are less resource-poor households which are contrary to vaccines is that “they value more medical care their children receive.
“Households with more money become complacent and do not give value to this type of medical procedures”. ... “It is surprising that more educated people, which is supposed to be more receptive to what the doctors say, that decides not to vaccinate their children,” says Professor at Cornell University, who believes that “for these parents the apparent risk of vaccines is greater than the benefit they receive. ”
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 22:17:03 GMT -5
What is hate? If you look at the definition it is extreme personal dislike. You should be allowed to hate people. You can hate anti Baxter’s, especially if you think they will cause you harm. It is when you take action on that hate that it causes problems with society. I am allowed to hate my neighbor due to his propensity for loud lawn equipment (an exaggeration) but I cannot shoot at him to get it to stop. I am ok with Liam Neeson expressing his hate he felt at one time. He did not take action and I think he was just trying to demonstrate how people can change. Many people on this board express absolute hate for our president. I am pretty sure they all think it is ok because he deserves it. You can’t dictate peoples feelings, just their actions. poor Baxter -- silly autocorrect
I think that last sentence is an interesting point.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 22:35:48 GMT -5
I've been labeled as anti vaxer although I'm not against it. I think parents need to educated themselves more on how the vaccine is made. Anyhow as far as hate, personally I think it's a terrible word but I do think it's OK for anyone to dislike anything or anyone else for any reason political correctness be dammed. Do you think that you're an anti-vaxxer or do you think you're anti-government control?
I understand the latter far more than I understand the former.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 9, 2019 22:41:03 GMT -5
The simple answer is that the difference here is that the group itself IS responsible. In the other cases an individual was responsible but the anger was against the group instead. If most or even all anti-vaxxers are white, it makes no sense to hate all whites for that. You can "hate" the subgroup without indicting the entire group. Even if the demographic that is most likely to not vaccinate are white middle class parents? (Yes, I know that sounds ridiculous; I'm just playing out the argument. Why is it not okay to hate one group but not another?)
link to article
Cynthia Leifer, professor in the department of immunology at Cornell University in New York, believes that one of the reasons why parents are less resource-poor households which are contrary to vaccines is that “they value more medical care their children receive.
“Households with more money become complacent and do not give value to this type of medical procedures”. ... “It is surprising that more educated people, which is supposed to be more receptive to what the doctors say, that decides not to vaccinate their children,” says Professor at Cornell University, who believes that “for these parents the apparent risk of vaccines is greater than the benefit they receive. ”I'm not sure I understand your question. My response which you quoted was that it IS okay to hold the subgroup responsible but not the main group, so unless your question above is mis-written and you are in fact asking me why it IS okay then you may be asking the wrong person. Nevertheless, and assuming that we grant your premise for the sake of argument.... Because it is not okay to hate all white middle-class parents over the actions of some white middle-class parents. A minority of offenders does not indicate that all members of a group are in error, only that some members are in error. It is acceptable to hold the anti-vaxxer subgroup of white middle-class parents responsible because they are by definition (and self-selection) the group responsible for not vaccinating. If you consider that group to be in error, then every member of that group is in error. Your "hatred" toward one equates to hating all since all members of the group are the same with respect to the belief or behavior by which you are judging. There are thus no "innocents" wrongfully tarred.
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Feb 9, 2019 22:41:17 GMT -5
I don't think we are within our rights to force people. I do think we are within our rights to keep non-vaccinated children away from those who are vaccinated. Why? Vaccinated people are protected. And I repeat, why do I become responsible for your health?
Because it's two other issues: 1)those who haven't been able (like babies) to have the full vaccination
2) those who have an actual medical reason that they cannot have the vaccination
So this non-vaccinated by choice group is intentionally causing a problem for the those two groups above. Do they not have a responsibility to those groups? And when I hate them, is that the same as hating other groups?
Or, do we agree that because the group is making a choice makes it different than hating a group that "just is"?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 9, 2019 22:57:04 GMT -5
I say no they don't. There are risks to being vaccinated as well. That is not a decision I think that we get to make for people.
No we don't agree on that. People that don't vaccinate did not create those diseases and they are not trying to get them to hurt other people. And considering how many "medicines" have proven to be very harmful throughout history it is not unreasonable to have concerns.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 9, 2019 23:23:17 GMT -5
I say no they don't. There are risks to being vaccinated as well. That is not a decision I think that we get to make for people. No we don't agree on that. People that don't vaccinate did not create those diseases and they are not trying to get them to hurt other people. And considering how many "medicines" have proven to be very harmful throughout history it is not unreasonable to have concerns. The risks of vacination pale in comparison to the risks of not vacinating. That is a false equivalency. Society has the right (and the responsibility) to protect itself. Unvacinated children should not be allowed to attend school (unless there is a medical reason for not vacinating). Requiring vacination (or a medi al exemption) does not force parents to vacinate. It does, however, hold them responsible for their choices.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2019 23:23:37 GMT -5
I don't think we are within our rights to force people. I do think we are within our rights to keep non-vaccinated children away from those who are vaccinated. Why? Vaccinated people are protected. ... Whoops. Should have said protect those who have a medical or religious exemption.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 9, 2019 23:38:44 GMT -5
I don't think we are within our rights to force people. I do think we are within our rights to keep non-vaccinated children away from those who are vaccinated. ..., why do I become responsible for your health? Why do you think you can't drive any speed you wish? Why can't you randomly shoot a gun in a city? Why can't you smoke on an airplane?
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 10, 2019 1:18:05 GMT -5
I say no they don't. There are risks to being vaccinated as well. That is not a decision I think that we get to make for people. No we don't agree on that. People that don't vaccinate did not create those diseases and they are not trying to get them to hurt other people. And considering how many "medicines" have proven to be very harmful throughout history it is not unreasonable to have concerns. The risks of vacination pale in comparison to the risks of not vacinating. That is a false equivalency. Society has the right (and the responsibility) to protect itself. Unvacinated children should not be allowed to attend school (unless there is a medical reason for not vacinating). Requiring vacination (or a medi al exemption) does not force parents to vacinate. It does, however, hold them responsible for their choices. I disagree. I understand not allowing sick people to attend school, but not unvaccinated people. You have just put the rights of the unhealthy ahead of the rights of the healthy. It's like saying you are not allowed to go out in public because you haven't had the flu vaccine. (For the record I also have a problem with the peanut ban in schools) Re the risks of vaccination - it's not up to you to decide which risks someone else is willing to take on. There are risks to being vaccinated.
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laterbloomer
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Post by laterbloomer on Feb 10, 2019 1:21:20 GMT -5
..., why do I become responsible for your health? Why do you think you can't drive any speed you wish? Why can't you randomly shoot a gun in a city? Why can't you smoke on an airplane? Those actions cause the problem. Not getting vaccinated did not cause measles or chicken pox etc. Those risks exist on their own. You are asking people to take extraordinary action to potentially solve your health problem.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Feb 10, 2019 8:20:59 GMT -5
Why do you think you can't drive any speed you wish? Why can't you randomly shoot a gun in a city? Why can't you smoke on an airplane? Those actions cause the problem. Not getting vaccinated did not cause measles or chicken pox etc. Those risks exist on their own. You are asking people to take extraordinary action to potentially solve your health problem. I drive through a section of roadway that has a lower speed limit part of the day than ordinarily required. My car bumper does not cause a human body to be unable to withstand impact. But I have to take an extraordinary action to potentially solve a potential health problem.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Feb 10, 2019 9:37:26 GMT -5
Why do you think you can't drive any speed you wish? Why can't you randomly shoot a gun in a city? Why can't you smoke on an airplane? Those actions cause the problem. Not getting vaccinated did not cause measles or chicken pox etc. Those risks exist on their own. You are asking people to take extraordinary action to potentially solve your health problem. I would take issue with that. Measles is transmitted by contact with or exposure to an infected person. If a child of an anti-vaxxer contracts measles and then passes it on to others who for whatever reason cannot be or have not yet been vaccinated, then in a very real sense the anti-vaxxer DID in fact "cause" the measles transmission to others. If the child had been vaccinated they would not have contracted the disease so would not have passed it on.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Feb 10, 2019 15:51:45 GMT -5
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 10, 2019 16:11:22 GMT -5
I say no they don't. There are risks to being vaccinated as well. That is not a decision I think that we get to make for people.
How many people die from being vaccinated? The number is minuscule. How many people die from these diseases? The numbers are staggering.
Working as a vaccination nurse, I'm very aware of how many people are unable to get vaccinated, due to allergies or being immunocompromised. If you refuse to vaccinate your kids, they shouldn't be allowed out of the house, as far as I'm concerned. Yes, it's your right to not vaccinate. Just as it's our right to demand you subsequently not expose our children to your walking petrie dishes.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 10, 2019 16:25:31 GMT -5
Why do you think you can't drive any speed you wish? Why can't you randomly shoot a gun in a city? Why can't you smoke on an airplane? Those actions cause the problem. Not getting vaccinated did not cause measles or chicken pox etc. Those risks exist on their own. You are asking people to take extraordinary action to potentially solve your health problem. Vaccinating your kids is not an extraordinary action. It's just common sense.
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