Divorce and Money

[oped]

Not Me! 

But i'm sure we have people who might benefit. 

I have a friend whose husband has told her he doesn't want to be married anymore. Both 50s. First year last kid is in college.  I think its been coming for a long while. He has always been an asshole. 

I am always the worst case scenario in novel writing brain detail. So check me here and tell me how to advise. 

She also homeschooled her kids. Joint decision. He was pissed when the second started college and she did not immediately have a job. She has gone through CASA training and worked on getting a specific licence in that time. BUT. They have never hurt for money.  My feeling is that he has been planning this for a long time. He wants her employed so alimony claims will be lessened. Also, she says he has always been good about money etc and not trying to take over accounts, etc. However, i know their business has been cash heavy in the past and she has said the cash has dried up the last few years. Again. She isn't in the daily workings of the business and i think he has been planning this for a long time. I would bet any money he has been siphoning off cash for years now.  

I don't know. Should i just be listening and saying nothing? Should i tell her my feelings? Are there legitimate, rational steps i should be telling her to take? 

[finnime]

I suggest you advise her to:
see an attorney pronto, so she knows fully her rights;
get copies of statements from all accounts for the past year;
get copies of tax filings from as long as they go back;
get a safe place of her own to keep these documents;
focus on retirement plans and funding - she's entitled to half of whatever there is, or more if she trades something like the house.
That is critical for her future.
Set up a bank/checking account of her own in her name only if she doesn't have one. Fund it.
Get a credit card in her name only if she doesn't have one.

[Tennesseer]

Without you appearing to be judgement, offer her your condolences (which you probably already have done), and encourage her to secure a good lawyer.

And listen to her.  Just listen.  

[raeoflyte]

I think planning for the future is most important.  If he's intentionally wiped out the business of money how intentionally is it that it would be obvious compared to if the business had a slow couple years and what are the consequences of that?  Will she be in the same position regardless of why the business is low on cash?    

If she wants advice, I'd focus on splitting retirement assets (or assets that can be used for retirement), and then making sure she can support herself going forward.  

[zibazinski]

They have forensic attorneys and tax people who can find out where the money went.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

By cash heavy do you mean that they take in cash payments that may not be properly recorded?

[oped]

Feb 3, 2019 12:20:01 GMT -5 Rukh O'Rorke said:

By cash heavy do you mean that they take in cash payments that may not be properly recorded?

I know people pay them in cash quite a bit. I am not sure how they have been recorded. I didn't ask. If any were 'disappearing' obviously those would have not been properly recorded.


The house assets should be her saving grace. They bought it super cheap. It has only their house on but was originally planned as a subdivision and they have put in a road and been in the subdivision process, so should make out very well on the property which will need to be equally split at least. 

Yes. I should just listen and recommend hiring good professionals at this point... lawyer, finance guy and back them up if needed...thanks for reinforcing this. 

[oped]

Feb 3, 2019 11:07:41 GMT -5 finnime said:

I suggest you advise her to:
see an attorney pronto, so she knows fully her rights;
get copies of statements from all accounts for the past year;
get copies of tax filings from as long as they go back;
get a safe place of her own to keep these documents;
focus on retirement plans and funding - she's entitled to half of whatever there is, or more if she trades something like the house.
That is critical for her future.
Set up a bank/checking account of her own in her name only if she doesn't have one. Fund it.
Get a credit card in her name only if she doesn't have one.

Good list of tasks to complete! Thanks. 

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I could have written this a couple years ago about my sister.  The only difference was that their 2 younger kids were still in HS.

I would advise her to get copies of all financial documents she can find.  Put in a safe place.  My ex BIL shredded the documents that showed that the down payment for the house came from my sister’s IRA from long before their marriage.

Open up a bank account only in her name.  Same with credit cards.  

Get any any sort of medical issues resolved now.   Health insurance is a big issue.

It took my sister 7 years to get a job in her field after being out of the workforce for over 15 years.  She started trying when her youngest was in school full time.  During that time, she worked at other jobs periodically but not in her field.  When she finally got a job, she f#$&ed it up as she had only been there a year when the shit hit the fan.  She does get alimony.  

Start interviewing lawyers now.  Apparently anyone she interviews, he can’t use.  Caution her not to use her lawyer as a counselor, get a counselor for this (or you might wind up being her counselor....not recommended).  The lawyer will cost, hopefully she has access to about $5000.

In my experience in dealing with this, I have had my sister royally pissed off at me.  I was unfailingly honest with her, and told her I’d be so.  If she didn’t want to hear the truth, I told her don’t call.  There are times where I just can’t deal, so I don’t answer the phone until I can deal with her.  Also know she likely won’t hear anything you say until you’ve said it 6x.  

It is only now now that she is beginning to think with more clarity.  But she still lapses (it has been about 3 years now since the bomb was dropped) and I drag her back.  

BTW....have her keep a spreadsheet of job applications, interviews, etc that she has had.  This will go a long way in helping her with her alimony.

[bean29]

Feb 3, 2019 13:19:25 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I could have written this a couple years ago about my sister.  The only difference was that their 2 younger kids were still in HS.

I would advise her to get copies of all financial documents she can find.  Put in a safe place.  My ex BIL shredded the documents that showed that the down payment for the house came from my sister’s IRA from long before their marriage.

Open up a bank account only in her name.  Same with credit cards.  

Get any any sort of medical issues resolved now.   Health insurance is a big issue.

It took my sister 7 years to get a job in her field after being out of the workforce for over 15 years.  She started trying when her youngest was in school full time.  During that time, she worked at other jobs periodically but not in her field.  When she finally got a job, she f#$&ed it up as she had only been there a year when the shit hit the fan.  She does get alimony.  

Start interviewing lawyers now.  Apparently anyone she interviews, he can’t use.  Caution her not to use her lawyer as a counselor, get a counselor for this (or you might wind up being her counselor....not recommended).  The lawyer will cost, hopefully she has access to about $5000.

In my experience in dealing with this, I have had my sister royally pissed off at me.  I was unfailingly honest with her, and told her I’d be so.  If she didn’t want to hear the truth, I told her don’t call.  There are times where I just can’t deal, so I don’t answer the phone until I can deal with her.  Also know she likely won’t hear anything you say until you’ve said it 6x.  

It is only now now that she is beginning to think with more clarity.  But she still lapses (it has been about 3 years now since the bomb was dropped) and I drag her back.  

BTW....have her keep a spreadsheet of job applications, interviews, etc that she has had.  This will go a long way in helping her with her alimony.

Mich, was your sister able to reproduce the 401K w/d info?  If my employer ever had a record of something like that we would still have a file with the info in it.  I can look at employee current balance info on line now, so I would not be surprised if I could still find paper copies of older info.  Would the bank that financed the house originally still have a copy of a check that came from the 401K provider like mine years ago was Fidelity or Great West with her name on it?  Just curious?  My husband has never had an interest in doucments/taxes etc.  If he wants anything he asks me for it, so I don't think he could find the stuff if he wanted to.  I don't think my DH would ever cut my kids off, and we would probably not have alimony involved at this point...as I have always worked, so I am generally not too worried about divorce (I am 55). 

[Deleted]

I'll chime in with my usual recommendation to look into a mediated settlement.  My divorce was 20+ years ago and in NJ, so your friend may or may not have this option.  My STBX (soon-to-be-Ex) and I put together a Property Settlement with the help of our attorneys, presented it to the court and the judge approved it and granted us a decree. You retain far more control and it's generally less expensive.  State laws may dictate alimony and CS obligations, although I was somehow able to turn down CS (which the Ex never would have paid) in exchange for being allowed to keep all the investments in my name.  I'll be forever grateful for that.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 3, 2019 15:10:02 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Feb 3, 2019 13:19:25 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I could have written this a couple years ago about my sister.  The only difference was that their 2 younger kids were still in HS.

I would advise her to get copies of all financial documents she can find.  Put in a safe place.  My ex BIL shredded the documents that showed that the down payment for the house came from my   sister’s IRA from long before their marriage.

Open up a bank account only in her name.  Same with credit cards.  

Get any any sort of medical issues resolved now.   Health insurance is a big issue.

It took my sister 7 years to get a job in her field after being out of the workforce for over 15 years.  She started trying when her youngest was in school full time.  During that time, she worked at other jobs periodically but not in her field.  When she finally got a job, she f#$&ed it up as she had only been there a year when the shit hit the fan.  She does get alimony.  

Start interviewing lawyers now.  Apparently anyone she interviews, he can’t use.  Caution her not to use her lawyer as a counselor, get a counselor for this (or you might wind up being her counselor....not recommended).  The lawyer will cost, hopefully she has access to about $5000.

In my experience in dealing with this, I have had my sister royally pissed off at me.  I was unfailingly honest with her, and told her I’d be so.  If she didn’t want to hear the truth, I told her don’t call.  There are times where I just can’t deal, so I don’t answer the phone until I can deal with her.  Also know she likely won’t hear anything you say until you’ve said it 6x.  

It is only now now that she is beginning to think with more clarity.  But she still lapses (it has been about 3 years now since the bomb was dropped) and I drag her back.  

BTW....have her keep a spreadsheet of job applications, interviews, etc that she has had.  This will go a long way in helping her with her alimony.

Mich, was your sister able to reproduce the 401K w/d info?  If my employer ever had a record of something like that we would still have a file with the info in it.  I can look at employee current balance info on line now, so I would not be surprised if I could still find paper copies of older info.  Would the bank that financed the house originally still have a copy of a check that came from the 401K provider like mine years ago was Fidelity or Great West with her name on it?  Just curious?  My husband has never had an interest in doucments/taxes etc.  If he wants anything he asks me for it, so I don't think he could find the stuff if he wanted to.  I don't think my DH would ever cut my kids off, and we would probably not have alimony involved at this point...as I have always worked, so I am generally not too worried about divorce (I am 55). 

Nope.  This was a job she had back in 1985.  She had moved to another company and the old company was sold to another.  My sister had rolled her 401k when she left into an IRA in 1991.  She married in 1992.

Her investment firm didn’t keep records of her withdrawal for a down payment in 1995 in 2016.  When they applied for the mortgage, she had to show proof where the down came from.  Her ex shredded all that documentation in their files.  They had also refinanced several times since that original mortgage.    It was an obnoxious mess and she pretty much wrote it off as gone.

[TheOtherMe]

While I have never been divorced, I have heard friends and family say to use a mediator for the property settlement.  It's much less expensive than an attorney.  

A former co-worker at the IRS got a divorce and he wanted to retain his civil service pension.  He was happy to give her his half of the house in exchange and she agreed.  Of course, she realized later that she couldn't not afford the house on one income.  He kept a mountain property that only had a camper on it and no running water or electricity.  That land is now worth some money and he has put in a well and it has electricity now.  

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Feb 3, 2019 18:45:47 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

While I have never been divorced, I have heard friends and family say to use a mediator for the property settlement.  It's much less expensive than an attorney.  

A former co-worker at the IRS got a divorce and he wanted to retain his civil service pension.  He was happy to give her his half of the house in exchange and she agreed.  Of course, she realized later that she couldn't not afford the house on one income.  He kept a mountain property that only had a camper on it and no running water or electricity.  That land is now worth some money and he has put in a well and it has electricity now.  

My sister’s experience with the mediator was that both her and he4 ex’s lawyers were at the meeting and they had to pay the lawyer’s going rates.  I’m guessing the mediator facilitated things, and each lawyer there to protect their respective client.  Not sure what it would have cost without the mediator’s involvement.

[zibazinski]

Feb 3, 2019 20:39:54 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

Feb 3, 2019 18:45:47 GMT -5 TheOtherMe said:

While I have never been divorced, I have heard friends and family say to use a mediator for the property settlement.  It's much less expensive than an attorney.  

A former co-worker at the IRS got a divorce and he wanted to retain his civil service pension.  He was happy to give her his half of the house in exchange and she agreed.  Of course, she realized later that she couldn't not afford the house on one income.  He kept a mountain property that only had a camper on it and no running water or electricity.  That land is now worth some money and he has put in a well and it has electricity now.  

My sister’s experience with the mediator was that both her and he4 ex’s lawyers were at the meeting and they had to pay the lawyer’s going rates.  I’m guessing the mediator facilitated things, and each lawyer there to protect their respective client.  Not sure what it would have cost without the mediator’s involvement.

As long as you remember neither party has to accept what the mediator says is fair.

[Miss Tequila]

I definitely would not want to be in the wife's shoes...in her 50s and no way to support herself.  I literally would not be able to sleep right now.  I am not well versed in alimony since I didn't even get child-support but I'm guessing she will be entitled to both alimony and a property settlement.  She definitely needs a good attorney.  

I also hope she can land a job soon.  She is a prime example of why a woman should not rely on a man to support her...that only lasts as long as the man agrees.  Such a sad situation for her.  

[giramomma]

You also may want to consider suggesting a therapist to her. You don't want her to pay a lawyer to be a therapist, and her friends might tire of being her therapist.

She may also want to consider a divorce support group, if they exist in the area.

Health insurance should also be addressed. The husband may need to carry her and the kids on his insurance. And how college will be paid for needs to be addressed as well.

Otherwise, I would I would be a sounding point for helping your friend address her priorities at the other end..when all is said and done. She might really want the house, but it may not be in her best interest..even if that's how they agree to divide the property.

Are you in an at-fault state? That might come in handy.

[bean29]

Feb 3, 2019 21:58:21 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I definitely would not want to be in the wife's shoes...in her 50s and no way to support herself.  I literally would not be able to sleep right now.  I am not well versed in alimony since I didn't even get child-support but I'm guessing she will be entitled to both alimony and a property settlement.  She definitely needs a good attorney.  

I also hope she can land a job soon.  She is a prime example of why a woman should not rely on a man to support her...that only lasts as long as the man agrees.  Such a sad situation for her.  

Try and tell people this though! You obviously are just not as good at choosing a mate as they are!

[giramomma]

Feb 4, 2019 10:47:22 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Feb 3, 2019 21:58:21 GMT -5 Miss Tequila said:

I definitely would not want to be in the wife's shoes...in her 50s and no way to support herself.  I literally would not be able to sleep right now.  I am not well versed in alimony since I didn't even get child-support but I'm guessing she will be entitled to both alimony and a property settlement.  She definitely needs a good attorney.  

I also hope she can land a job soon.  She is a prime example of why a woman should not rely on a man to support her...that only lasts as long as the man agrees.  Such a sad situation for her.  

Try and tell people this though! You obviously are just not as good at choosing a mate as they are!

Yes. But, it's not always as simple as "Dipshit. Pick a good mate."

Perhaps the better course of action is to suggest that if you aren't interested in any risk, then you should not enter into a relationship period.

[raeoflyte]

Feb 4, 2019 10:55:31 GMT -5 giramomma said:

Feb 4, 2019 10:47:22 GMT -5 bean29 said:

Try and tell people this though! You obviously are just not as good at choosing a mate as they are!

Yes. But, it's not always as simple as "Dipshit. Pick a good mate."

Perhaps the better course of action is to suggest that if you aren't interested in any risk, then you should not enter into a relationship period.

That isn't realistic or probably healthy either.  And when a relationship is ending, no one needs to hear what they should have done to not get into that mess.  

But I think having some idea about the layers of risk to watch out for--ideally to be talking to our kids about is a good idea.  What kind of risk are you taking on to support your spouse through a college degree, or to be a sahs?  Maybe the risk associated with a partners family and the likelihood of repeating patterns or just years to decades of possible drama.  The risk of having kids with the very real consequence that even divorce will never truly free you from that other person once you have baby with them.  

If we're not approaching marriage and relationships from a till death perspective where you just have to suck it up, I think having an idea of choices and consequences and end games is worth having on the table.  

[oped]

Well, she assists in the business they own which she will get a piece of, and as I said their real estate holdings are significant. She stayed home, quitting a lucrative position because it was a joint decision. She is who alimony is for, frankly.

[Wisconsin Beth]

I second the forensic accountant to find out where the money is/was. 

[hoops902]

Feb 4, 2019 13:10:23 GMT -5 oped said:

Well, she assists in the business they own which she will get a piece of, and as I said their real estate holdings are significant. She stayed home, quitting a lucrative position because it was a joint decision. She is who alimony is for, frankly.

Is this business a side-business?  Or the way they make their money (or he makes his money).  I guess the way I'm reading things, it sounds more like the main source of income rather than a side business.  If true, would she really get alimony?  Wouldn't she just get her slice of the business instead?  I'm trying to figure out what income of his there is to give alimony out of...wouldn't all the business's income over the years have been attributable to both of them?

Obviously if this is just a side business and he has a job as the main source of income this isn't relevant.  

[oped]

Feb 4, 2019 13:57:32 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Feb 4, 2019 13:10:23 GMT -5 oped said:

Well, she assists in the business they own which she will get a piece of, and as I said their real estate holdings are significant. She stayed home, quitting a lucrative position because it was a joint decision. She is who alimony is for, frankly.

Is this business a side-business?  Or the way they make their money (or he makes his money).  I guess the way I'm reading things, it sounds more like the main source of income rather than a side business.  If true, would she really get alimony?  Wouldn't she just get her slice of the business instead?  I'm trying to figure out what income of his there is to give alimony out of...wouldn't all the business's income over the years have been attributable to both of them?

Obviously if this is just a side business and he has a job as the main source of income this isn't relevant.  

Good questions! And why she needs professional help and not my speculation

He is a med adjacent professional. So he does the majority of the work. She has maintained taxes, payroll and marketing. I’m not sure how things are split as far as ownership.

[oped]

To me alimony isn’t about asset splitting. It’s about her ability to immediately replace standard of living going forward based on past joint decisions.

[hoops902]

Feb 4, 2019 16:14:42 GMT -5 oped said:

Feb 4, 2019 13:57:32 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Is this business a side-business?  Or the way they make their money (or he makes his money).  I guess the way I'm reading things, it sounds more like the main source of income rather than a side business.  If true, would she really get alimony?  Wouldn't she just get her slice of the business instead?  I'm trying to figure out what income of his there is to give alimony out of...wouldn't all the business's income over the years have been attributable to both of them?

Obviously if this is just a side business and he has a job as the main source of income this isn't relevant.  

Good questions! And why she needs professional help and not my speculation [img src="http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/wink.png" alt="" class="smile" src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png"]

He is a med adjacent professional. So he does the majority of the work. She has maintained taxes, payroll and marketing. I’m not sure how things are split as far as ownership.

Obviously I have no idea how this kind of things works.  Seems incredibly complicated in my mind actually.  I'm picturing a small business, where nobody is getting a W-2 because there's no reason to W-2 yourself here.  So then all of your income isn't actually your income...it's "business" income that potentially you each share in equally.

At the same time, only 1 of you is really qualified to keep working going forward in a similar capacity, but it's easy to see an argument for "why would I pay alimony?  we both work at a family business, when the business dissolves we'll both be jobless and even".  

To your point about standard of living...to me the question from a logical standpoint becomes how you attribute the income prior to divorce.  It's tough to say one side should pay another side alimony if both sides had equal income while married. 


Maybe someone on this board knows how that kind of thing works when it's a family business, specifically if it dissolves and if one partner is far more involved in the "work" while it is jointly owned.  Seems like a new and interesting question, and it feels like we so rarely get new and interesting questions on here.

[finnime]

From my DSis's experience I'd say that a big part of the alimony question is how equitable current and future earnings would be. DSis's X ran his own company. DSis went back to school to turn her degree in engineering into something she could use to teach. She'd stayed home at his insistence to raise their sons. She receives alimony and also his retirement plans and savings were QDRO'd.

If the business is a family business but only one party can make a significant income in it without the other, I think the courts try and even it up.

[justme]

Except, giving a SAHW shares of a business that relies pretty heavily on her STBX for any income in lieu of alimony is stupid and no one would agree to it. All the STBX would have to do is close up shop - making the shares worth 0 - and then open a new company doing the same exact shit under a different name and viola all the money for himself. 

[hoops902]

Feb 4, 2019 16:58:11 GMT -5 justme said:

Except, giving a SAHW shares of a business that relies pretty heavily on her STBX for any income in lieu of alimony is stupid and no one would agree to it. All the STBX would have to do is close up shop - making the shares worth 0 - and then open a new company doing the same exact shit under a different name and viola all the money for himself. 

My assumption is they will close the business.  I'm wondering how you make a decision to allocate earnings though.

As an example, let's say the business brought to their household $200k last year (that way we can ignore whether it has other employees, etc, since it said she does payroll I assume they have some).  He does some stuff for the business, she does some stuff for the business (neither is an absentee owner).  How good are divorce courts at saying "well...even though you both work at the business and you both own it 50/50, let's start allocating the income more heavily to one of you over the other".  

How do divorce courts accurately break down "well he's much more valuable to this business because he does X, and she doesn't have the same earning power because she did the marketing and payroll"?  That seems....difficult...to do when both people are involved in it (regardless of the fact that she's a SAHP...kind of...it sounds like she's clearly doing things for the business and seems to more likely be working while also taking care of the kids).  

Is that just something the attorneys fight out in court?  It seems a lot less straighforward than other SAHP alimony calculations could be.  It wouldn't be hard to sit down and say "Hoops made $X last year, wife made $Y last year, apply to the formula, boom, done".  Where do you even start in this kind of scenario?  Particularly if it is a successful small business that does more than just create a job for an individual (i.e.  it exists as a real business with employees, who generate profit).

[justme]

Feb 4, 2019 17:19:04 GMT -5 hoops902 said:

Feb 4, 2019 16:58:11 GMT -5 justme said:

Except, giving a SAHW shares of a business that relies pretty heavily on her STBX for any income in lieu of alimony is stupid and no one would agree to it. All the STBX would have to do is close up shop - making the shares worth 0 - and then open a new company doing the same exact shit under a different name and viola all the money for himself. 

My assumption is they will close the business.  I'm wondering how you make a decision to allocate earnings though.

As an example, let's say the business brought to their household $200k last year (that way we can ignore whether it has other employees, etc, since it said she does payroll I assume they have some).  He does some stuff for the business, she does some stuff for the business (neither is an absentee owner).  How good are divorce courts at saying "well...even though you both work at the business and you both own it 50/50, let's start allocating the income more heavily to one of you over the other".  

How do divorce courts accurately break down "well he's much more valuable to this business because he does X, and she doesn't have the same earning power because she did the marketing and payroll"?  That seems....difficult...to do when both people are involved in it (regardless of the fact that she's a SAHP...kind of...it sounds like she's clearly doing things for the business and seems to more likely be working while also taking care of the kids).  

Is that just something the attorneys fight out in court?  It seems a lot less straighforward than other SAHP alimony calculations could be.  It wouldn't be hard to sit down and say "Hoops made $X last year, wife made $Y last year, apply to the formula, boom, done".  Where do you even start in this kind of scenario?  Particularly if it is a successful small business that does more than just create a job for an individual (i.e.  it exists as a real business with employees, who generate profit).

Courts have made rulings based on earnings potential before. So it's not that far of a stretch to realize a guy that did X for the business has X skills that would make $X on average vs the wife that did Y with Y skills which is $Y. I mean, seriously, you really don't think it's hard to determine that someone that was essentially running the business was individually way more responsible for any revenue in the business and has the skills to continue to do that vs someone who just did payroll (btw, also indicating that it wasn't just a one man shop) and some accounting -- but obviously wasn't a full time job as she home schooled the kids?