Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2019 18:17:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the update. I'm glad you got lucky on this, especially since it was so cold and frozen for so long.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 4, 2019 9:08:14 GMT -5
they may be making pipes more durable these days!
great news, Pants!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 9:44:33 GMT -5
I think where in the plumbing the frozen spot is has a bearing on whether or not the pipes leak after. The burst pipes aren't from the expansion of the frozen water, they're from the pressure of the water building up behind the frozen spot...which kind of confuses me, because isn't the entire pipe always under that pressure when the water is shut off at the faucet/showerhead?
Anyhow, in my first house, I had a laundry room faucet that froze up every time it got below -10 or so and never had a broken pipe in the 7 years I lived there. The water in my barn freezes up almost every SPRING for as long as a couple weeks. They say the warm weather drives the frost deeper, so it can be subzero for weeks, then a sudden warming of 60 degree or so weather and I have no water. Those pipes have never broke either in the 20 years it's been doing that.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Feb 4, 2019 9:48:54 GMT -5
My pipes didn't burst even though they froze with the cold. My stuff is old AF.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 4, 2019 14:04:14 GMT -5
I think where in the plumbing the frozen spot is has a bearing on whether or not the pipes leak after. The burst pipes aren't from the expansion of the frozen water, they're from the pressure of the water building up behind the frozen spot...which kind of confuses me, because isn't the entire pipe always under that pressure when the water is shut off at the faucet/showerhead?
Anyhow, in my first house, I had a laundry room faucet that froze up every time it got below -10 or so and never had a broken pipe in the 7 years I lived there. The water in my barn freezes up almost every SPRING for as long as a couple weeks. They say the warm weather drives the frost deeper, so it can be subzero for weeks, then a sudden warming of 60 degree or so weather and I have no water. Those pipes have never broke either in the 20 years it's been doing that. Nope, the water BEHIND the frozen spot (nearer the source of the water) has the same pressure. It's the water nearer the fixture which rises in pressure causing the burst. Think of the pressure like this. With normal pipes, there's a certain amount of pressure. You can think of the pressure as the space available and the amount of water filling that space. As it freezes, the ice expands, which traps the same amount of water in a small space (the space smaller because of the expansion of ice). So you now have more water in a smaller space, more pressure. You're just putting the same amount of water into a smaller space than prior, which means more pressure. ETA: In a way, it is because of the expansion of the frozen water...it's just not the ice cracking the pipe like many thing. The frozen water which expands adds pressure to the fixture side of the freeze. <iframe width="29.360000000000127" height="4.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 29.360000000000127px; height: 4.640000000000015px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_939741" scrolling="no"></iframe>
<iframe width="29.360000000000127" height="4.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 29.36px; height: 4.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1402px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_991848" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="29.360000000000127" height="4.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 29.36px; height: 4.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 171px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_78713164" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="29.360000000000127" height="4.640000000000015" style="position: absolute; width: 29.36px; height: 4.64px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1402px; top: 171px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_96338382" scrolling="no"></iframe>
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2019 14:38:29 GMT -5
Well, that makes more sense. So, it shouldn't really matter how long the pipes are frozen as long as you had opened the faucet at some point before the pipes crack to let the water out between the faucet and the freeze.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 4, 2019 14:54:49 GMT -5
Well, that makes more sense. So, it shouldn't really matter how long the pipes are frozen as long as you had opened the faucet at some point before the pipes crack to let the water out between the faucet and the freeze. As long as you do it before the pipes crack (which may be long before the crack is noticed) then yes, you should be fine. The only thing I could think of that wouldn't fit that is if you had 2 distinct frozen areas of the pipe. You could crack via pressure between the 2 ice damns, and opening the faucet wouldn't necessarily do anything to help.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Feb 4, 2019 15:51:21 GMT -5
Well, that makes more sense. So, it shouldn't really matter how long the pipes are frozen as long as you had opened the faucet at some point before the pipes crack to let the water out between the faucet and the freeze. As long as you do it before the pipes crack (which may be long before the crack is noticed) then yes, you should be fine. The only thing I could think of that wouldn't fit that is if you had 2 distinct frozen areas of the pipe. You could crack via pressure between the 2 ice damns, and opening the faucet wouldn't necessarily do anything to help.Yep. The uninhabitable house my sibling bought had water pipes had that burst in 3 different places. 2 of the sections had actually "burst" open - since the pipes were exposed in the basement - it was easy to see. The bursts happened at two different ends of the house along the main run of water pipe. I have one of the burst sections of copper pipe - as a Curiosity. It looks cool. The 3rd section was just a crack which wasn't visible/noticeable - it didn't get found until the water was turned back on and it sprayed water! it was kind of expected and the plumbing was being carefully watched for just such a thing when the water was turned on. It's a very nice house now --that it's habitable again (and I don't recommend buying uninhabitable houses) .
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 4, 2019 16:21:30 GMT -5
I have a pipe that runs along an outside wall for about 3 feet. I know for sure that it's insulated and the wall is fairly protected from the wind, but I still worry about it. This cold snap I was running the sink and occasionally put a space heater on the wall. Not sure if I should do anything else though.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 5, 2019 8:49:17 GMT -5
I have a pipe that runs along an outside wall for about 3 feet. I know for sure that it's insulated and the wall is fairly protected from the wind, but I still worry about it. This cold snap I was running the sink and occasionally put a space heater on the wall. Not sure if I should do anything else though. I heard a recommendation somewhere....sometime ago......to put a heat register in the wall. When needed you can open it up so the indoor heat seeps into the wall more easily.
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Ryan
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Post by Ryan on Feb 5, 2019 10:24:57 GMT -5
I have a pipe that runs along an outside wall for about 3 feet. I know for sure that it's insulated and the wall is fairly protected from the wind, but I still worry about it. This cold snap I was running the sink and occasionally put a space heater on the wall. Not sure if I should do anything else though. I heard a recommendation somewhere....sometime ago......to put a heat register in the wall. When needed you can open it up so the indoor heat seeps into the wall more easily. Interesting, that's a good idea.
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tskeeter
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Post by tskeeter on Feb 5, 2019 12:44:31 GMT -5
Guys, I’m going to call Internet myth on the idea that increased water pressure in a partially frozen pipe causes the pipe burst.
First, if that idea was true, most water line failuires would occur at a weak point in the pipe far from where the pipe has frozen. Instead, my observation is that pipes fail in the area that is most likely to freeze. Maybe that’s why water meters are designed with a freeze plate. Which beaks and relieves pressure before the water meter casing breaks.
Second, it’s a question of pressure and the ability to withstand pressure. Residential water systems typically run at 40 to 50 psi. My observation is that water expands by less than 25% when it freezes. So, water freezing in a pipe would increase the water pressure in the unfrozen portion of the pipe to about 65 psi, depending on the ratio of frozen to unfrozen pipe. (In my experience, most of the time only a short section of a run of pipe is exposed to enough cold that it freezes). Now consider that copper water line material has often been used to assemble compressed air systems. Operating pressures for these systems frequently range between 125 and 150 psi. How is it that copper water line can withstand 150 psi of compressed air, but not water under 65 psi of pressure?
The reason that water lines fail in the area where they have frozen is a question of elasticity. Freezing water expands. As it expands, it tries to stretch the pipe in the area where the water has frozen. In essence, the freezing water tries to turn a 1/2 inch pipe into a 3/4 inch pipe. Copper and iron are not elastic enough to stretch by 25%. So, when freezing water applies enough pressure to a section of a pipe, the pipe will burst.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Feb 7, 2019 14:20:17 GMT -5
Guys, I’m going to call Internet myth on the idea that increased water pressure in a partially frozen pipe causes the pipe burst. First, if that idea was true, most water line failuires would occur at a weak point in the pipe far from where the pipe has frozen. Instead, my observation is that pipes fail in the area that is most likely to freeze. Maybe that’s why water meters are designed with a freeze plate. Which beaks and relieves pressure before the water meter casing breaks. Second, it’s a question of pressure and the ability to withstand pressure. Residential water systems typically run at 40 to 50 psi. My observation is that water expands by less than 25% when it freezes. So, water freezing in a pipe would increase the water pressure in the unfrozen portion of the pipe to about 65 psi, depending on the ratio of frozen to unfrozen pipe. (In my experience, most of the time only a short section of a run of pipe is exposed to enough cold that it freezes). Now consider that copper water line material has often been used to assemble compressed air systems. Operating pressures for these systems frequently range between 125 and 150 psi. How is it that copper water line can withstand 150 psi of compressed air, but not water under 65 psi of pressure? The reason that water lines fail in the area where they have frozen is a question of elasticity. Freezing water expands. As it expands, it tries to stretch the pipe in the area where the water has frozen. In essence, the freezing water tries to turn a 1/2 inch pipe into a 3/4 inch pipe. Copper and iron are not elastic enough to stretch by 25%. So, when freezing water applies enough pressure to a section of a pipe, the pipe will burst. Among other things...do NOT use type M copper piping (common sizing for residential water applications) for compressed air. The thickness of the copper matters greatly, it's not interchangeable.
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