Opti
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Post by Opti on Feb 10, 2019 16:28:51 GMT -5
Virgil, everyone, including you, has spent time on these boards speculating. I'm not a journalist, and neither are you (at least, not on these boards) so we're all free to speculate as much as we want to speculate. Haven't you posted pages and pages of posts in the past about how Western civilization is declining and about to go over the edge into chaos and mass murder - yet you have no proof that is about to happen, or will ever happen. That doesn't prevent you from looking at our current state, linking data into what you consider to be a reasonable hypothesis, and posting it here - many, many times, and with 100% conviction it will come true. And there is nothing wrong with that.
So please allow the rest of us to study the data, postulate on links between various Trump employees and friends, on reports from different investigations going on around us, and put together our own speculation about what will happen in the future.
As for any of us being extremely disappointed if Mueller produces nothing of substance at all? I think we're capable of surviving that. You've lived so far without civilization collapsing, even though you've been predicting that for years, right? Are you wrong about that, or do you still believe it will happen at any time? Will you be disappointed if you die in your bed as an old man, and civilization is still staggering along like a drunken man?
- Western civilization is collapsing. Not overnight, but I've never claimed as much. Regarding dates: I've only included them for specific milestones such as sovereign defaults, passage of laws, etc., and even then, rarely. Search for "prediction" in my post record and you'll find itemized lists of my on-the-record predictions.
- I certainly will be disappointed if/when Western civilization collapses. Only a fool would look forward to "chaos and mass murder", as you put it.
- The sum total of my speculative doomsaying over the past 10 years, which you call "pages and pages of posts", might fill 4-5 30-post pages if we gleaned every sentence remotely befitting. Contrast this with the hundreds of threads and thousands of pages devoted to the almighty Mueller inquiry in the past 2 years, the two aren't even in the same universe.
I believe I can speak on behalf of Value Buy in saying that neither of us is trying to discourage your endless speculation per se. Consider us "concerned witnesses" to the sheer volume of the stuff you've heaped up, and to the arrant hatred of Pres. Trump driving its accrual. We're watching with dismay (or in VB's case, amusement), knowing perfectly well what will happen to two years of pent-up malevolence if Mr. Mueller fails to deliver Pres. Trump's head on a pike."I think we're capable of surviving that." Yeah. Barely. I personally doubt there are thousands of pages devoted to the Mueller inquiry. The threads are rarely that long so maybe a hundred or so pages are far more likely. And unlike your doomsday predictions, investigation talk is mostly confined to those threads, so if its giving you angst, just avoid them altogether. I do find it interesting that you weren't similarly worried about folks wanting Hillary convicted, also lots of pages, or anything similar. It seems confined to IMO trying to suppress non conservative views in the not well veiled attempt to pretend its concern for non conservative posters. Its hard to get proof to convict. I don't think there are many here who really think its a slam dunk, so IMO its really about some posters trying to shut down these threads or certain posters. Here's a solution - stop reading the threads and you can stop getting upset about them. I think most will agree with me you don't know what will happen, as you really don't understand what most people are thinking. To think there is pent up anger against Trump is as silly as me opining a bunch of conservative folks have gone mental simply because Hillary wasn't convicted. A few years of anger at Trump is a small drop in the bucket if we weigh it against the years of hate against Hillary, Bill Clinton and Obama.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 10, 2019 16:51:40 GMT -5
There is 1 end times speculator, as pertains western civilization. There are many American posters that think Trump is a shit show and a criminal on many levels. Of course there will be more postings on that than some Canadian chicken little bs.
It was about 1980 when my mom finally noted that I had been right about Nixxon from 1968 on. Perhaps we are all right about Trump too and that VS is wrong about the decline and fall of western civilization.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2019 17:01:16 GMT -5
I appreciate you worrying about how I will feel if Mueller's investigation doesn't discover anything concrete, but you shouldn't waste any time worrying about my feelings, or the feelings of other anti-Trump Americans. For someone who believes the end of civilization is coming, the potential hurt feelings of a bunch of Americans is a small thing, isn't it? Who says the two aren't related? Corruption, political polarization, loss of faith in political institutions, disrespect (and outright hatred) of leaders, dehumanization, loss of decency and decorum... all symptoms of civilizational collapse.
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Feb 10, 2019 17:06:25 GMT -5
No all symptoms of a dysfunctional president. I believe it may be the end of our democracy as we know it. 2 more years will take decades to undo the harm he has wrought. 4 more years and our democracy is done. I'm sorry the hard core 30% don't understand what a danger he is. I fear the election process has been so corrupted he could actually get "voted" in again.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Feb 10, 2019 17:10:30 GMT -5
I appreciate you worrying about how I will feel if Mueller's investigation doesn't discover anything concrete, but you shouldn't waste any time worrying about my feelings, or the feelings of other anti-Trump Americans. For someone who believes the end of civilization is coming, the potential hurt feelings of a bunch of Americans is a small thing, isn't it? Who says the two aren't related? Corruption, political polarization, loss of faith in political institutions, disrespect (and outright hatred) of leaders, dehumanization, loss of decency and decorum... all symptoms of civilizational collapse.
Those things have been around since.....forever. Civilization has yet to collapse.
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 10, 2019 17:17:08 GMT -5
What have also been around for ever are the end of the world, Armageddon, collapse of civilization, Henny Penny doom and gloomers.
I think Virgil's has some biblical overtones to it. A Revelation I just had.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 10, 2019 17:42:55 GMT -5
Maybe virgil defends trump so trump can help bring the end times along? And depending on how virgil defines "western civilization", maybe it won't be such a loss after all?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2019 17:46:09 GMT -5
I personally doubt there are thousands of pages devoted to the Mueller inquiry. [1] The threads are rarely that long so maybe a hundred or so pages are far more likely. And unlike your doomsday predictions, investigation talk is mostly confined to those threads, so if its giving you angst, just avoid them altogether. [2]I do find it interesting that you weren't similarly worried about folks wanting Hillary convicted, also lots of pages, or anything similar. [3] It seems confined to IMO trying to suppress non conservative views in the not well veiled attempt to pretend its concern for non conservative posters. [4] Its hard to get proof to convict. I don't think there are many here who really think its a slam dunk, so IMO its really about some posters trying to shut down these threads or certain posters. Here's a solution - stop reading the threads and you can stop getting upset about them. [5]I think most will agree with me you don't know what will happen, as you really don't understand what most people are thinking. To think there is pent up anger against Trump is as silly as me opining a bunch of conservative folks have gone mental simply because Hillary wasn't convicted. [6] A few years of anger at Trump is a small drop in the bucket if we weigh it against the years of hate against Hillary, Bill Clinton and Obama. [7]- An average of 2 threads/week, 2 pages per thread (many are one page, but some are 15+), times 140 weeks = 560 pages. Not including posts from threads not devoted to the topic.
- 99.5% of them, I do. Got sucked into this one because of the title and some of the comments. Mea culpa.
- Just like my doomsaying, sum up every post ever written on the subject and you get only a tiny fraction of the sweat, blood, and tears YMAM has invested in the Mueller inquiry.
- I'm appealing to reason, nothing more. Moreover, wanting Pres. Trump's head on a pike isn't a "non conservative view". There are plenty of conservatives who want to see the man fail, and even more who simply don't care. Finally, "trying to suppress non conservative views" on YMAM would be like trying to hold back the tide with a beach umbrella.
- Who says I'm upset? I'm defending my initial argument. You don't have to be upset to caution people.
- A "bunch of conservative folks" did flip their lids when Ms. Clinton wasn't convicted, and that was after just 6 months, without weekly reassurances from the MSM that a conviction was imminent.
- Uh huh. And how many members who routinely expressed hate for the Clintons and Pres. Obama are still here? How many would you say were worth taking seriously by the time they left?
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 10, 2019 18:19:31 GMT -5
#1 - you discount the number of posters in looking at number of posts. 70% of posters here think trumps a chump and felon. Kinda similar to the population?
#2 - ridiculous comments? Like that western civilization is collapsing? Now that is pretty extreme! And a relatively low-key speculation like "I think trump's a crook" is met with incredulity. Are you laughing as you try to pawn this off on us as a "reasoned observation"?
#3 - just stop with the conservative control tactic of foisting extreme emotions on nonconservatives when they voice an opinion. It's really getting old. I am crying, neither I am sweating or bleeding, but I will let you know when my next menstrual cycle begins if that is really of interest here.
#4 - no heads on pikes necessary, we're just asking for a cheerful orange jumpsuit.
#5 see #3. So you reject others foisting emotions on you? interesting!
#6 please cite at least 3 of these "weekly reassurances"
#7 so - who is to be taken seriously here, and when? Did they change? Or their views become more transparent, revealing what they always were?
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 10, 2019 18:20:50 GMT -5
- I'm appealing to reason, nothing more. Moreover, wanting Pres. Trump's head on a pike isn't a "non conservative view". There are plenty of conservatives who want to see the man fail, and even more who simply don't care. Finally, "trying to suppress non conservative views" on YMAM would be like trying to hold back the tide with a beach umbrella.
What is your definition of 'reason?'
Do you want all the posters here to refrain from criticizing Trump, his family, his WH admin, his company, and all his cronies because it's disrespectful to criticize a president?
If that's what you consider 'reasonable' Canada must have a significantly different type of politics. In the US, our politics have always come hand in hand with disrespect. Jefferson got a lot of crap for his mistress being one of his slaves. Jackson was constantly fighting off insults about his wife being a bigamist. And who can forget all the 'monkey' jokes and cartoons that floated around about the Obamas. If we don't like our elected officials, we tend to be very vocal. It's what we do.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 10, 2019 21:57:30 GMT -5
just stop with the conservative control tactic of foisting extreme emotions on nonconservatives when they voice an opinion The only "extreme emotion" I've attributed to anybody here is hatred of Pres. Trump, and I base this on a litany of comments wishing every kind of evil on the man. "Conservative control tactics" are a partisan fever dream.
- I'm appealing to reason, nothing more. Moreover, wanting Pres. Trump's head on a pike isn't a "non conservative view". There are plenty of conservatives who want to see the man fail, and even more who simply don't care. Finally, "trying to suppress non conservative views" on YMAM would be like trying to hold back the tide with a beach umbrella.
What is your definition of 'reason?'
Do you want all the posters here to refrain from criticizing Trump, his family, his WH admin, his company, and all his cronies because it's disrespectful to criticize a president?
If that's what you consider 'reasonable' Canada must have a significantly different type of politics. In the US, our politics have always come hand in hand with disrespect. Jefferson got a lot of crap for his mistress being one of his slaves. Jackson was constantly fighting off insults about his wife being a bigamist. And who can forget all the 'monkey' jokes and cartoons that floated around about the Obamas. If we don't like our elected officials, we tend to be very vocal. It's what we do. You're conflating criticism and hatred. Criticism is when you consider a man guilty after looking at the evidence, make an objective determination at the appropriate time, and speak out against whatever wrongdoing he may be doing, desiring justice. Hatred is when you consider a man guilty regardless of evidence, and boldly prophesy his downfall for 30 straight months. You cobble together any rationale you can to speak evil of him, revile everything he does regardless of merit, and bide your time openly hoping he's found guilty of some crime--any crime. Your interest in justice, if you have any, is suffocated by your zealous--sometimes gleeful--expectancy of his being punished, shamed, and personally ruined. You can't go two days without berating the man or wishing out loud for his enemies to crush him underfoot. You practically idolize the man who's job it is to prosecute him.
I'm not saying you personally meet all these criteria, but some here do, and many others do in part. VB finds it funny. I avoid it entirely except during rare bouts of unthinking optimism. And before you haul the anti-Obama threads of yesteryear out as your defense, I ask you to consider the same question in my last post: How many of the rabid anti-Obama posters are still here? How was hateful rhetoric against Pres. Obama regarded? What was your opinion of that rhetoric? And most importantly: Why should anyone's opinion of wishing evil on Pres. Trump be any different? Why should anyone regard 'orange man' jokes with any less contempt than 'monkey' jokes about Pres. Obama, for that matter?
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Feb 10, 2019 22:55:56 GMT -5
Why is loathing, disdain and complete disgust repeatedly referred to as “hate”? It’s not like us Americans don’t have numerous reasons to hold Trump in that regard.
And since when are orange man jokes allowed here except the one thread? Does he make himself that color? Do you really find those versus monkey jokes about Obama to be equivalent? Really?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Feb 11, 2019 1:17:18 GMT -5
- Western civilization is collapsing. Not overnight, but I've never claimed as much.
no, and your predictions have consistently been wrong, so far.
so, you will forgive me for dismissing this one.
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happyhoix
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 11, 2019 10:20:48 GMT -5
just stop with the conservative control tactic of foisting extreme emotions on nonconservatives when they voice an opinion The only "extreme emotion" I've attributed to anybody here is hatred of Pres. Trump, and I base this on a litany of comments wishing every kind of evil on the man. "Conservative control tactics" are a partisan fever dream.
What is your definition of 'reason?'
Do you want all the posters here to refrain from criticizing Trump, his family, his WH admin, his company, and all his cronies because it's disrespectful to criticize a president?
If that's what you consider 'reasonable' Canada must have a significantly different type of politics. In the US, our politics have always come hand in hand with disrespect. Jefferson got a lot of crap for his mistress being one of his slaves. Jackson was constantly fighting off insults about his wife being a bigamist. And who can forget all the 'monkey' jokes and cartoons that floated around about the Obamas. If we don't like our elected officials, we tend to be very vocal. It's what we do. You're conflating criticism and hatred. Criticism is when you consider a man guilty after looking at the evidence, make an objective determination at the appropriate time, and speak out against whatever wrongdoing he may be doing, desiring justice. Hatred is when you consider a man guilty regardless of evidence, and boldly prophesy his downfall for 30 straight months. You cobble together any rationale you can to speak evil of him, revile everything he does regardless of merit, and bide your time openly hoping he's found guilty of some crime--any crime. Your interest in justice, if you have any, is suffocated by your zealous--sometimes gleeful--expectancy of his being punished, shamed, and personally ruined. You can't go two days without berating the man or wishing out loud for his enemies to crush him underfoot. You practically idolize the man who's job it is to prosecute him.
I'm not saying you personally meet all these criteria, but some here do, and many others do in part. VB finds it funny. I avoid it entirely except during rare bouts of unthinking optimism. And before you haul the anti-Obama threads of yesteryear out as your defense, I ask you to consider the same question in my last post: How many of the rabid anti-Obama posters are still here? How was hateful rhetoric against Pres. Obama regarded? What was your opinion of that rhetoric? And most importantly: Why should anyone's opinion of wishing evil on Pres. Trump be any different? Why should anyone regard 'orange man' jokes with any less contempt than 'monkey' jokes about Pres. Obama, for that matter?
First of all, I don't hate Trump. He embarrasses me, and he depresses me, because I know there is a dedicated 30 something percent of voters in this country (including dear family members) who have fallen for his Elmer Gantry spiel about only believing Trump and no one but Trump. I have always felt a little superior to Germans because I didn't think it was possible for our nation to become transfixed by a charismatic snake oil salesman who played on their worst racist fears, like Germany did. I was wrong.
Secondly, if he ever did anything of merit, I'd be glad to praise him. The single thing I can think of is passing the prison reform bill, and that was Jared's thing, more than Trump. So whoo-hoo, he passed some prison reform.
Third, I question your statement about considering him guilty 'regardless of evidence.' Even if you disregard what Mueller is working on behind the black curtain, we are swimming in evidence of criminal activities. I think you must be trying to remain willfully ignorant about that. For just one recent example, there is proof that Trump's family (Ivanka in particular) used the Presidential inaugurations activities to funnel money from the donations made to the committee, straight into the Trump pocket. She charged as much as triple the going rate for ballroom space and other rooms at the Trump DC hotel - $700,000 for one ball room for 4 nights, for example (and that didn't include the catering or performers). The grift was so overt, the woman running the whole show (Melania's best friend) called Michael Cohen and asked him to intervene with Ivanka because she knew how bad it would look, once the records became public. (Cohen secretly recorded that conversation, so we have the evidence.) There is also evidence that foreigners donated money to the committee, which is illegal. Over all, Trump's inauguration campaign raised twice what anyone else's campaign ever did - and had a lot less to show for it (3 balls, compared to 9 for Obama, who raised half as much cash). So what was all that extra cash spent on? The investigation continues. And before you bitch about the inauguration being 2 years ago, and we all need to get past it - Congress was being run by the GOP for the last 2 years, and refused to look into it. Now that the dems control the House, they can start asking all the questions Trump never wanted to be asked about. And am I pleased that Trump might ultimately be revealed to be the mobbed up, sleazy grafter I know him to be (from his business dealings way back before he ever became president) - yes, I will be pleased to see someone who took the office of the POTUS and dragged it through the mud finally held accountable. To me, he's literally pissed on the flag, and I'll be happy to see him lose the 2020 election.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2019 13:09:07 GMT -5
The only "extreme emotion" I've attributed to anybody here is hatred of Pres. Trump, and I base this on a litany of comments wishing every kind of evil on the man. "Conservative control tactics" are a partisan fever dream.
You're conflating criticism and hatred. Criticism is when you consider a man guilty after looking at the evidence, make an objective determination at the appropriate time, and speak out against whatever wrongdoing he may be doing, desiring justice. Hatred is when you consider a man guilty regardless of evidence, and boldly prophesy his downfall for 30 straight months. You cobble together any rationale you can to speak evil of him, revile everything he does regardless of merit, and bide your time openly hoping he's found guilty of some crime--any crime. Your interest in justice, if you have any, is suffocated by your zealous--sometimes gleeful--expectancy of his being punished, shamed, and personally ruined. You can't go two days without berating the man or wishing out loud for his enemies to crush him underfoot. You practically idolize the man who's job it is to prosecute him.
I'm not saying you personally meet all these criteria, but some here do, and many others do in part. VB finds it funny. I avoid it entirely except during rare bouts of unthinking optimism. And before you haul the anti-Obama threads of yesteryear out as your defense, I ask you to consider the same question in my last post: How many of the rabid anti-Obama posters are still here? How was hateful rhetoric against Pres. Obama regarded? What was your opinion of that rhetoric? And most importantly: Why should anyone's opinion of wishing evil on Pres. Trump be any different? Why should anyone regard 'orange man' jokes with any less contempt than 'monkey' jokes about Pres. Obama, for that matter?
First of all, I don't hate Trump. He embarrasses me, and he depresses me, because I know there is a dedicated 30 something percent of voters in this country (including dear family members) who have fallen for his Elmer Gantry spiel about only believing Trump and no one but Trump. I have always felt a little superior to Germans because I didn't think it was possible for our nation to become transfixed by a charismatic snake oil salesman who played on their worst racist fears, like Germany did. I was wrong.
Secondly, if he ever did anything of merit, I'd be glad to praise him. The single thing I can think of is passing the prison reform bill, and that was Jared's thing, more than Trump. So whoo-hoo, he passed some prison reform.
Third, I question your statement about considering him guilty 'regardless of evidence.' Even if you disregard what Mueller is working on behind the black curtain, we are swimming in evidence of criminal activities. I think you must be trying to remain willfully ignorant about that. For just one recent example, there is proof that Trump's family (Ivanka in particular) used the Presidential inaugurations activities to funnel money from the donations made to the committee, straight into the Trump pocket. She charged as much as triple the going rate for ballroom space and other rooms at the Trump DC hotel - $700,000 for one ball room for 4 nights, for example (and that didn't include the catering or performers). The grift was so overt, the woman running the whole show (Melania's best friend) called Michael Cohen and asked him to intervene with Ivanka because she knew how bad it would look, once the records became public. (Cohen secretly recorded that conversation, so we have the evidence.) There is also evidence that foreigners donated money to the committee, which is illegal. Over all, Trump's inauguration campaign raised twice what anyone else's campaign ever did - and had a lot less to show for it (3 balls, compared to 9 for Obama, who raised half as much cash). So what was all that extra cash spent on? The investigation continues. And before you bitch about the inauguration being 2 years ago, and we all need to get past it - Congress was being run by the GOP for the last 2 years, and refused to look into it. Now that the dems control the House, they can start asking all the questions Trump never wanted to be asked about. And am I pleased that Trump might ultimately be revealed to be the mobbed up, sleazy grafter I know him to be (from his business dealings way back before he ever became president) - yes, I will be pleased to see someone who took the office of the POTUS and dragged it through the mud finally held accountable. To me, he's literally pissed on the flag, and I'll be happy to see him lose the 2020 election.
It sounds like you've got a decent case against Ivanka Trump. Notice that you're supplying evidence, not speculating. You're not swearing at her or calling her names. You're not yearning for her to be guilty of something, or wishing out loud for her to be humiliated or personally destroyed. Most importantly, I'm quite certain you haven't doted on the scandal every week for the past 30 months. Hence none of the things I'm criticizing are present in this post--except your going out of your way to call Pres. Trump a "German" (wink wink) racist mobbed up sleazy grafter [sic] snake oil salesman... for no reason at all. But you don't hate him. Anyway... Back to the grind for me. Thanks for the discussion.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2019 13:16:39 GMT -5
And since when are orange man jokes allowed here except the one thread? Does he make himself that color? Do you really find those versus monkey jokes about Obama to be equivalent? Really? Not equivalent, but equally disrespectful to the office of President. I don't distinguish between mocking a man's appearance because you don't like his race and mocking a man's appearance because you don't like his politics. Not that either is the gravest of sins, but best to be avoided.
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dezii
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Post by dezii on Feb 11, 2019 13:43:10 GMT -5
The only "extreme emotion" I've attributed to anybody here is hatred of Pres. Trump, and I base this on a litany of comments wishing every kind of evil on the man. "Conservative control tactics" are a partisan fever dream.
You're conflating criticism and hatred. Criticism is when you consider a man guilty after looking at the evidence, make an objective determination at the appropriate time, and speak out against whatever wrongdoing he may be doing, desiring justice. Hatred is when you consider a man guilty regardless of evidence, and boldly prophesy his downfall for 30 straight months. You cobble together any rationale you can to speak evil of him, revile everything he does regardless of merit, and bide your time openly hoping he's found guilty of some crime--any crime. Your interest in justice, if you have any, is suffocated by your zealous--sometimes gleeful--expectancy of his being punished, shamed, and personally ruined. You can't go two days without berating the man or wishing out loud for his enemies to crush him underfoot. You practically idolize the man who's job it is to prosecute him.
I'm not saying you personally meet all these criteria, but some here do, and many others do in part. VB finds it funny. I avoid it entirely except during rare bouts of unthinking optimism. And before you haul the anti-Obama threads of yesteryear out as your defense, I ask you to consider the same question in my last post: How many of the rabid anti-Obama posters are still here? How was hateful rhetoric against Pres. Obama regarded? What was your opinion of that rhetoric? And most importantly: Why should anyone's opinion of wishing evil on Pres. Trump be any different? Why should anyone regard 'orange man' jokes with any less contempt than 'monkey' jokes about Pres. Obama, for that matter?
First of all, I don't hate Trump. He embarrasses me, and he depresses me, because I know there is a dedicated 30 something percent of voters in this country (including dear family members) who have fallen for his Elmer Gantry spiel about only believing Trump and no one but Trump. I have always felt a little superior to Germans because I didn't think it was possible for our nation to become transfixed by a charismatic snake oil salesman who played on their worst racist fears, like Germany did. I was wrong.
Secondly, if he ever did anything of merit, I'd be glad to praise him. The single thing I can think of is passing the prison reform bill, and that was Jared's thing, more than Trump. So whoo-hoo, he passed some prison reform.
Third, I question your statement about considering him guilty 'regardless of evidence.' Even if you disregard what Mueller is working on behind the black curtain, we are swimming in evidence of criminal activities. I think you must be trying to remain willfully ignorant about that. For just one recent example, there is proof that Trump's family (Ivanka in particular) used the Presidential inaugurations activities to funnel money from the donations made to the committee, straight into the Trump pocket. She charged as much as triple the going rate for ballroom space and other rooms at the Trump DC hotel - $700,000 for one ball room for 4 nights, for example (and that didn't include the catering or performers). The grift was so overt, the woman running the whole show (Melania's best friend) called Michael Cohen and asked him to intervene with Ivanka because she knew how bad it would look, once the records became public. (Cohen secretly recorded that conversation, so we have the evidence.) There is also evidence that foreigners donated money to the committee, which is illegal. Over all, Trump's inauguration campaign raised twice what anyone else's campaign ever did - and had a lot less to show for it (3 balls, compared to 9 for Obama, who raised half as much cash). So what was all that extra cash spent on? The investigation continues.
"And before you bitch about the inauguration being 2 years ago, and we all need to get past it - Congress was being run by the GOP for the last 2 years, and refused to look into it. Now that the dems control the House, they can start asking all the questions Trump never wanted to be asked about. And am I pleased that Trump might ultimately be revealed to be the mobbed up, sleazy grafter I know him to be (from his business dealings way back before he ever became president) - yes, I will be pleased to see someone who took the office of the POTUS and dragged it through the mud finally held accountable. To me, he's literally pissed on the flag, and I'll be happy to see him lose the 2020 election. "
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happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,856
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Post by happyhoix on Feb 11, 2019 14:52:25 GMT -5
First of all, I don't hate Trump. He embarrasses me, and he depresses me, because I know there is a dedicated 30 something percent of voters in this country (including dear family members) who have fallen for his Elmer Gantry spiel about only believing Trump and no one but Trump. I have always felt a little superior to Germans because I didn't think it was possible for our nation to become transfixed by a charismatic snake oil salesman who played on their worst racist fears, like Germany did. I was wrong.
Secondly, if he ever did anything of merit, I'd be glad to praise him. The single thing I can think of is passing the prison reform bill, and that was Jared's thing, more than Trump. So whoo-hoo, he passed some prison reform.
Third, I question your statement about considering him guilty 'regardless of evidence.' Even if you disregard what Mueller is working on behind the black curtain, we are swimming in evidence of criminal activities. I think you must be trying to remain willfully ignorant about that. For just one recent example, there is proof that Trump's family (Ivanka in particular) used the Presidential inaugurations activities to funnel money from the donations made to the committee, straight into the Trump pocket. She charged as much as triple the going rate for ballroom space and other rooms at the Trump DC hotel - $700,000 for one ball room for 4 nights, for example (and that didn't include the catering or performers). The grift was so overt, the woman running the whole show (Melania's best friend) called Michael Cohen and asked him to intervene with Ivanka because she knew how bad it would look, once the records became public. (Cohen secretly recorded that conversation, so we have the evidence.) There is also evidence that foreigners donated money to the committee, which is illegal. Over all, Trump's inauguration campaign raised twice what anyone else's campaign ever did - and had a lot less to show for it (3 balls, compared to 9 for Obama, who raised half as much cash). So what was all that extra cash spent on? The investigation continues. And before you bitch about the inauguration being 2 years ago, and we all need to get past it - Congress was being run by the GOP for the last 2 years, and refused to look into it. Now that the dems control the House, they can start asking all the questions Trump never wanted to be asked about. And am I pleased that Trump might ultimately be revealed to be the mobbed up, sleazy grafter I know him to be (from his business dealings way back before he ever became president) - yes, I will be pleased to see someone who took the office of the POTUS and dragged it through the mud finally held accountable. To me, he's literally pissed on the flag, and I'll be happy to see him lose the 2020 election.
It sounds like you've got a decent case against Ivanka Trump. Notice that you're supplying evidence, not speculating. You're not swearing at her or calling her names. You're not yearning for her to be guilty of something, or wishing out loud for her to be humiliated or personally destroyed. Most importantly, I'm quite certain you haven't doted on the scandal every week for the past 30 months. Hence none of the things I'm criticizing are present in this post--except your going out of your way to call Pres. Trump a "German" (wink wink) racist mobbed up sleazy grafter [sic] snake oil salesman... for no reason at all. But you don't hate him. Anyway... Back to the grind for me. Thanks for the discussion.
I just laid out evidence about how the Trumps turned the opportunity to raise money for an inauguration celebration into a way to siphon off donor's cash - and very likely, to illegal solicit money gifts from foreign nationals in a pay to play scheme.
That's pretty much the definition of a sleazy grifter snake oil salesman.
Or am I supposed to politely sit back and applaud the industriousness of Trump and his family to turn a boring political event into an opportunity to line their pockets? Great American success story and all that?
I'm not going to pretend Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual just because it hurts your feelings when I don't.
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Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,018
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 11, 2019 19:15:23 GMT -5
Maybe Virgil is just juicing some sour grapes after betting on the wrong horse and wants us to discuss something he can at least pretend he isn't wrong about. Again I say
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2019 19:22:16 GMT -5
I'm not going to pretend Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual just because it hurts your feelings when I don't. Yes, happyhoix. That's what this whole discussion has been about. Me insisting you pretend Pres. Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual because it hurts my feelings when you don't. I'm off to cry into my MAGA hat now. Americans. Yeesh.
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Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,018
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 11, 2019 19:24:47 GMT -5
I'm not going to pretend Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual just because it hurts your feelings when I don't. Yes, happyhoix. That's what this whole discussion has been about. Me insisting you pretend Pres. Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual because it hurts my feelings when you don't. I'm off to cry into my MAGA hat now. Americans. Yeesh. You spend a lot of time commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually.
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Virgil Showlion
Distinguished Associate
Moderator
[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 15:19:33 GMT -5
Posts: 27,448
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Feb 11, 2019 20:42:25 GMT -5
Yes, happyhoix. That's what this whole discussion has been about. Me insisting you pretend Pres. Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual because it hurts my feelings when you don't. I'm off to cry into my MAGA hat now. Americans. Yeesh. You spend a lot of time commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually. You mean 25 minutes in the past three months? Boo. But zounds! I've caught you trying to silence me using the "liberal control tactic of foisting extreme emotions on nonliberals when they voice an opinion". Why can't a political discussion just be a political discussion? Nothing to do with feelings or control tactics or sour grapes, but simply a conflict of ideas? In this case, the merits vs. the hazards of YMAM's preoccupation with speculating on the Mueller inquiry.
I rest my case here, but if and when Value Buy comes back, do him the service of regarding him as a concerned human being--a dissenting opinion--and not a creepy, controlling(, misogynistic, racist, ... I forget what else you alluded to) conservative bent on suppressing your opinion. I'm 55% certain he's a decent guy.
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Feb 11, 2019 21:14:27 GMT -5
You’re whining now.
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countrygirl2
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 7, 2016 15:45:05 GMT -5
Posts: 16,834
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Post by countrygirl2 on Feb 11, 2019 21:23:20 GMT -5
I think what is totally disgraceful is someone like trump as our president. I never thought this country could become so devoid of reason and intelligence to "elect" such as he. So yes there is disgrace, not toward the office, but to the man that is despoiling it. And each day when you think it can't get any worse it does.
I guess we will see how low he will sink our great country, I'm also sure it is by design.
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steff
Senior Associate
I'll sleep when I'm dead
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 17:34:24 GMT -5
Posts: 10,772
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Post by steff on Feb 11, 2019 22:07:57 GMT -5
Yes, happyhoix. That's what this whole discussion has been about. Me insisting you pretend Pres. Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual because it hurts my feelings when you don't. I'm off to cry into my MAGA hat now. Americans. Yeesh. You spend a lot of time trying to control commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually. fixed that for you
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 11, 2019 22:18:57 GMT -5
Yes, happyhoix. That's what this whole discussion has been about. Me insisting you pretend Pres. Trump is a fine, upstanding moral individual because it hurts my feelings when you don't. I'm off to cry into my MAGA hat now. Americans. Yeesh. You spend a lot of time commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually. You should talk,,,, seem you do much of the same!
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Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,018
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 11, 2019 22:31:21 GMT -5
You spend a lot of time commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually. You should talk,,,, seem you do much of the same! either you didn't understand what I was saying or you're pretending not to..... Not sure where to go with that.
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OldCoyote
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 21, 2010 10:34:48 GMT -5
Posts: 13,449
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Post by OldCoyote on Feb 11, 2019 22:34:34 GMT -5
OK, I am open to have you tell what I didn't understand.
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Rukh O'Rorke
Senior Associate
Joined: Jul 4, 2016 13:31:15 GMT -5
Posts: 10,018
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Feb 11, 2019 23:01:11 GMT -5
You spend a lot of time commenting on other people discussions. Kinda creepy actually. You mean 25 minutes in the past three months? Boo. But zounds! I've caught you trying to silence me using the "liberal control tactic of foisting extreme emotions on nonliberals when they voice an opinion". Why can't a political discussion just be a political discussion? Nothing to do with feelings or control tactics or sour grapes, but simply a conflict of ideas? In this case, the merits vs. the hazards of YMAM's preoccupation with speculating on the Mueller inquiry.
I rest my case here, but if and when Value Buy comes back, do him the service of regarding him as a concerned human being--a dissenting opinion--and not a creepy, controlling(, misogynistic, racist, ... I forget what else you alluded to) conservative bent on suppressing your opinion. I'm 55% certain he's a decent guy. what a fail of a post here. I guess nice try? There is basically no defense of trump and all the trump stalwarts are looking dumber by the day. I keep an excel sheet on posters estimated IQ scores, and I subtract 1 point for every month they posture out a good ole rendition of I know it's a disappointment what a clown car charade this administration turned out to be that people are fired and indicted regularly, but come on now. Still calling it nothing? Hillarious! I just love the ongoing support of trump, honestly it keeps me rolling in the aisles on the bus and train home. But your transparent tactic of circumventing an existing conversation to get all judgy-existential about why we are we talking about it. Oh my! Yeah- we're enjoying it, duh! I mean, it's a political message board consisting of a majority of US citizen - what the fuck else are we going to talk about?? honestly what were you expecting? You're just mad we're gloating. We're gloating gloaters. We are gloating. We're enjoying ourselves.......
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dondub
Senior Associate
The meek shall indeed inherit the earth but only after the Visigoths are done with it.
Joined: Jan 16, 2014 19:31:06 GMT -5
Posts: 12,110
Location: Seattle
Favorite Drink: Laphroig
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Post by dondub on Feb 11, 2019 23:08:26 GMT -5
Love it!
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