Speculation is mueller can prove collusion

[Rukh O'Rorke]

slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/manafort-filing-redacted-collusion-evidence.html

[Tennesseer]

Last night on Anderson 360 (CNN), Rick Santorum, a major trump apologist, stated the unredacted information in the Manafort filing concerned him of possible trump campaign collusion.

[djAdvocate]

I think it is wonderful how well they have kept the lid on this.

Trump has said "no collusion" over and over and over again.  and Mueller gave him no rebuttal.

[happyhoix]

So here's some recent Manafort news - the usual corrupt bullshit, evidence Manafort lied repeatedly (the transcript documenting his lies is 143 pages long) - discussions with a guy linked to Russian intelligence when Manafort was still the Trump campaign chair that refers to a 'backdoor.'  Proof Manafort kept working for at least one political client in the Ukraine when he had been indicted by Mueller.

That's the usual 'dirty Trump BFF' crap, but what I loved about the article was Santa in the background, holding up the Traitor sign.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/manafort-kept-working-in-ukraine-after-mueller-indictment-transcript-shows/ar-BBTj7SO

If you look in the background of a lot of these photos showing Trump cronies exiting courthouses, Outraged Santa always seems to be there, holding up these big white, accusatory signs behind the person, so it gets caught on camera.  Apparently, this guy is retired (or wealthy enough to hang out at the courthouse all day) and has taken it upon himself to provide background commentary to exiting Trump crooks.

I would love someone to do an article on him, why he does what he does, does he feel patriotic doing it, does anyone give him shit, do other people give him a hug - I'd love to know more about him. He's certainly dedicated and persistent.  I think he looks like a retired college professor, but he might actually be Santa - it's his off season, after all.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 7, 2019 19:08:09 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

So here's some recent Manafort news - the usual corrupt bullshit, evidence Manafort lied repeatedly (the transcript documenting his lies is 143 pages long) - discussions with a guy linked to Russian intelligence when Manafort was still the Trump campaign chair that refers to a 'backdoor.'  Proof Manafort kept working for at least one political client in the Ukraine when he had been indicted by Mueller.

That's the usual 'dirty Trump BFF' crap, but what I loved about the article was Santa in the background, holding up the Traitor sign.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/manafort-kept-working-in-ukraine-after-mueller-indictment-transcript-shows/ar-BBTj7SO

If you look in the background of a lot of these photos showing Trump cronies exiting courthouses, Outraged Santa always seems to be there, holding up these big white, accusatory signs behind the person, so it gets caught on camera.  Apparently, this guy is retired (or wealthy enough to hang out at the courthouse all day) and has taken it upon himself to provide background commentary to exiting Trump crooks.

I would love someone to do an article on him, why he does what he does, does he feel patriotic doing it, does anyone give him shit, do other people give him a hug - I'd love to know more about him. He's certainly dedicated and persistent.  I think he looks like a retired college professor, but he might actually be Santa - it's his off season, after all.

Your wish is my command.


Protester with ‘traitor’ sign at Manafort court appearance is the hero we need

[Tennesseer]

'Santa' in the linked article video below throwing a Russian flag at Manafort.

Manafort pleads not guilty, faces protester with Russian flag

[tallguy]

Feb 7, 2019 19:21:35 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Feb 7, 2019 19:08:09 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Your wish is my command.

Gee, does that work for everybody?  

[countrygirl2]

I think trump is guilty of all kinds of stuff.  Collusion, money laundering, likely tax fraud, it would not surprise me if he has been involved with organized crime too.  He seems to know a lot about it.

Sadly about all that will happen is he will be impeached or forced to resign.  But once he is out and can do nothing for any of them I think his earning power will be greatly diminished.  And I think he will become just a sad, horrible footnote in history.  Of the terrible days our country went through.

I can only hope he is ruined, that the Russians and Saudis will no longer loan him money and no one will bail him out. They have already said Kushner is overloaded with debt.  trump helped push Qatar to the brink till they loaned his SIL a half billion, then the sanctions were lifted, but when he is out he will no longer have any influence.  I think he has cut his own throat. He is a worthless waste of good air.

[tbop77]

Tune into Fox news where Kellyanne will tell us some alternative facts and Rudy will say the truth is not the truth!  

[Value Buy]

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

[Value Buy]

I thought it was cute someone had to bump a thread started January 9th and they could not even post a new thread with something new.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 8, 2019 9:12:16 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I thought it was cute someone had to bump a thread started January 9th and they could not even post a new thread with something new.

Seeing 30 days have not passed since the thread was created it did not say this when an 'old' thread is bumped.  But cute of you to point it out.  

STOP! How old is this thread?

If this thread hasn't been posted to in 30 days or more, you should not be replying to it. Start a new one, or send a PM to the author if you want an update. Recipe and movie threads would be an exception.

[happyhoix]

Feb 8, 2019 9:12:16 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

I thought it was cute someone had to bump a thread started January 9th and they could not even post a new thread with something new.

I didn't want to start a new Manafort bashing thread, and didn't want to add a Manafort article to one of the Trump bashing threads, so I looked for the most recent Manafort bashing thread.  My goal was to consolidate the number of bashing threads, to be tidy.

However, my point wasn't specifically to trash Manafort (he's pretty much as trashed as it gets already) - I just love seeing Santa in the background, waving his signs around. It's a high spot in an otherwise endless, dismal wall of suspects doing perp walks.

[happyhoix]

Feb 8, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

What will you do if Mueller does have all the evidence to prove that there was collusion between Trump's campaign and the Russians?

After all, we now know that Manafort was talking to a Russian with known ties to the Russian intelligence community while he was Trump's campaign manager. It's possible they were discussing borsht prices or fly fishing, but not likely. I suspect Mueller may already know what they were talking about, because out government routinely listens in to Russian intelligence agent telephone calls.

Will you still be chuckling if the proof of guilt is there in black and white?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 8, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

It makes me cringe, not chuckle.

Even if we take for granted the existence of circumstances whence Mr. Mueller can rigorously prove collusion up to and including Pres. Trump himself (noting that nobody on YMAM has yet proffered a theory more substantive than their faith in Mueller's supernatural investigative abilities), the odds the goods wouldn't have leaked to the media by now (or been intuited by them based on investigative activity) are marginal, and the odds that Pres. Trump's personal conduct was provably, undeniably worthy of impeachment even more so.

Future generations of tots will sit listening to "The Boy Who Cried 'Collusion'" instead of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf'" if this thing drags out any longer.

And this is from a guy who believes Pres. Trump has no business holding the office of US President.

[tbop77]

Feb 8, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

I chuckle too when I think conservatives thought Hillary was a bigger crook than President Trump!  And the defending him by CONSERVATIVES really makes me LOL.

I think I'll go watch the Billy Bush tape where he was bragging about assaulting women. 

[happyhoix]

Feb 8, 2019 12:06:16 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 8, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

It makes me cringe, not chuckle.

Even if we take for granted the existence of circumstances whence Mr. Mueller can rigorously prove collusion up to and including Pres. Trump himself (noting that nobody on YMAM has yet proffered a theory more substantive than their faith in Mueller's supernatural investigative abilities), the odds the goods wouldn't have leaked to the media by now (or been intuited by them based on investigative activity) are marginal, and the odds that Pres. Trump's personal conduct was provably, undeniably worthy of impeachment even more so.

Future generations of tots will sit listening to "The Boy Who Cried 'Collusion'" instead of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf'" if this thing drags out any longer.

And this is from a guy who believes Pres. Trump has no business holding the office of US President.

Why do you find it unlikely Muellers findings, if substantial, would have leaked to the media by now, if they existed?

Mueller appears to be running a very tight ship. Google the 'mystery company' to see what I mean - Mueller's group has been conducting a series of meetings with representatives for some mysterious company with links to this investigation, and despite reporters hiding out in stair wells and on the parking garage ramps waiting to see who comes in and out of the courthouse, the media has not yet been able to sniff out who the company is, and which country it's located in.

I don't think the lack of public information confirms there is no damaging information available. I think it just confirms how air tight Mueller's team is.

Not that I'm willing to place money on whether or not there is info that can link Trump to collusion - I don't want to wager a bet on that one way or another. However, I think we shouldn't be making assumptions one way or another until the fat lady has actually sung.

Of course, I fully expect that, even if there IS some black and white evidence pointing directly back at Trump, Trumpettes will insist it's all fake news.

[hurley1980]

I was discussing with my mom this past weekend. I'm beginning to think the Russians got a hold of Trump and forced him to run for office. Even Trump can't be stupid enough to choose to run with all of the shit in his past that is about to be exposed. He is ruined as soon as this presidency is over. His name will forever be tainted with most of the world. I think he thought even with the Russians help, he wouldn't win, because he was running against Clinton. When he won, he had no clue what to do, because he's simply a puppet for the Russians, and he has to act like he's not. He's not a good enough actor to pull it off.

[weltschmerz]

Feb 8, 2019 1:41:53 GMT -5 countrygirl2 said:

I think trump is guilty of all kinds of stuff.  Collusion, money laundering, likely tax fraud, it would not surprise me if he has been involved with organized crime too.  He seems to know a lot about it.

Sadly about all that will happen is he will be impeached or forced to resign.  But once he is out and can do nothing for any of them I think his earning power will be greatly diminished.  And I think he will become just a sad, horrible footnote in history.  Of the terrible days our country went through.

I can only hope he is ruined, that the Russians and Saudis will no longer loan him money and no one will bail him out. They have already said Kushner is overloaded with debt.  trump helped push Qatar to the brink till they loaned his SIL a half billion, then the sanctions were lifted, but when he is out he will no longer have any influence.  I think he has cut his own throat. He is a worthless waste of good air.

www.vice.com/en_ca/article/ppx7b9/a-brief-history-of-donald-trump-and-the-mafia

[happyhoix]

Feb 8, 2019 14:49:28 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

I was discussing with my mom this past weekend. I'm beginning to think the Russians got a hold of Trump and forced him to run for office. Even Trump can't be stupid enough to choose to run with all of the shit in his past that is about to be exposed. He is ruined as soon as this presidency is over. His name will forever be tainted with most of the world. I think he thought even with the Russians help, he wouldn't win, because he was running against Clinton. When he won, he had no clue what to do, because he's simply a puppet for the Russians, and he has to act like he's not. He's not a good enough actor to pull it off.

I still think Trump ran as part of a great marketing scheme - free advertising, got his name out in front of a lot of people, in the news on a daily basis. Trump wasn't worried about his past activities being exposed because he didn't expect to win, his big plan was to start Trump TV.

Not sure if the Russians helped him, and if they did, if they did it overtly, or if they subtly sent useful information through convenient Trump idiots like Stone and Manafort. Willing to wait for the Mueller report to finally publish to find that out.

And I do think Trump is stupid enough to think that he could prevent reporters/government investigators from prying up the stones and looking underneath. Prime example is how his family grifted the inaugural activities - how they could have blatantly funneled so much money from donors under the guise of inaugural activities into the Trump coffers when someone must have told them that those activities always get a lot of scrutiny perfectly demonstrates the level of stupidity in the WH.

 

[Gardening Grandma]

Feb 8, 2019 15:43:19 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 8, 2019 14:49:28 GMT -5 hurley1980 said:

I was discussing with my mom this past weekend. I'm beginning to think the Russians got a hold of Trump and forced him to run for office. Even Trump can't be stupid enough to choose to run with all of the shit in his past that is about to be exposed. He is ruined as soon as this presidency is over. His name will forever be tainted with most of the world. I think he thought even with the Russians help, he wouldn't win, because he was running against Clinton. When he won, he had no clue what to do, because he's simply a puppet for the Russians, and he has to act like he's not. He's not a good enough actor to pull it off.

I still think Trump ran as part of a great marketing scheme - free advertising, got his name out in front of a lot of people, in the news on a daily basis. Trump wasn't worried about his past activities being exposed because he didn't expect to win, his big plan was to start Trump TV.

Not sure if the Russians helped him, and if they did, if they did it overtly, or if they subtly sent useful information through convenient Trump idiots like Stone and Manafort. Willing to wait for the Mueller report to finally publish to find that out.

And I do think Trump is stupid enough to think that he could prevent reporters/government investigators from prying up the stones and looking underneath. Prime example is how his family grifted the inaugural activities - how they could have blatantly funneled so much money from donors under the guise of inaugural activities into the Trump coffers when someone must have told them that those activities always get a lot of scrutiny perfectly demonstrates the level of stupidity in the WH.

 

He’s been a great con man all his life.
I think it’s arrogance rather than stupidity. He is ignorant about a lot of things, but has the con man’s ability to read people and tell them what they want to hear.  

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 8, 2019 12:22:41 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 8, 2019 12:06:16 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

It makes me cringe, not chuckle.

Even if we take for granted the existence of circumstances whence Mr. Mueller can rigorously prove collusion up to and including Pres. Trump himself (noting that nobody on YMAM has yet proffered a theory more substantive than their faith in Mueller's supernatural investigative abilities), the odds the goods wouldn't have leaked to the media by now (or been intuited by them based on investigative activity) are marginal, and the odds that Pres. Trump's personal conduct was provably, undeniably worthy of impeachment even more so.

Future generations of tots will sit listening to "The Boy Who Cried 'Collusion'" instead of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf'" if this thing drags out any longer.

And this is from a guy who believes Pres. Trump has no business holding the office of US President.

Why do you find it unlikely Muellers findings, if substantial, would have leaked to the media by now, if they existed?

Mueller appears to be running a very tight ship. Google the 'mystery company' to see what I mean - Mueller's group has been conducting a series of meetings with representatives for some mysterious company with links to this investigation, and despite reporters hiding out in stair wells and on the parking garage ramps waiting to see who comes in and out of the courthouse, the media has not yet been able to sniff out who the company is, and which country it's located in.

I don't think the lack of public information confirms there is no damaging information available. I think it just confirms how air tight Mueller's team is.

Not that I'm willing to place money on whether or not there is info that can link Trump to collusion - I don't want to wager a bet on that one way or another. However, I think we shouldn't be making assumptions one way or another until the fat lady has actually sung.

Of course, I fully expect that, even if there IS some black and white evidence pointing directly back at Trump, Trumpettes will insist it's all fake news.

Mr. Mueller's team is only as good as his information sources, i.e. the FBI, CIA, and other intel agencies, which have leaked like sieves over the past two years.

Given the animus between Pres. Trump and the agencies, I have a really hard time believing the Anti-Trump Damning Facts Department is the one place they managed to stay 100% watertight.

However, I think we shouldn't be making assumptions one way or another until the fat lady has actually sung.

How do you gauge "making assumptions"? For 30 months I've been reading threads stacked wall-to-wall with members convinced (or at least extremely confident) that the Mueller inquiry will bring down Pres. Trump. I've seen you aboard this bandwagon.

I'm not talking about "This could lead to..." or "Assuming this allegation proves true, ..." hypothesizing, but rather weekly 'smoking gun' prophecies, preemptive celebrations, and 3+-page discussions that rest on the premise Pres. Trump will be found guilty of collusion.

Even if these don't constitute "making assumptions" in your mind, it's obvious (to VB and me, at least) that there are going to be a lot of irate, heartbroken people on YMAM if their sugar plum dreams of a Trump impeachment fail to materialize.

Of course, I fully expect that, even if there IS some black and white evidence pointing directly back at Trump, Trumpettes will insist it's all fake news.

I agree 100%. And if the inquiry turns up hearsay, coincidences, and minor charges, but nothing that definitively proves collusion, the anti-Trumpettes will insist the evidence at hand is a red hot smoking gun. Welcome to our "post-truth" society.

My own best guess is that reality will be deeply unsatisfying for both sides. The inquiry will end with a flurry of indictments against Trump campaign staff--mostly for procedural/ethical improprieties, lying under oath, failure to disclose information, etc.--but nothing treasonous and nothing touching Pres. Trump except possibly the "hush money to mistress = campaign finance violation" farce. There will be enough smoke for the anti-Trumpettes to claim the man is Hitler reincarnate, and sufficiently little fire for the Trumpettes to claim he's 100% vindicated.

[djAdvocate]

Feb 8, 2019 9:10:47 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

This thread makes me chuckle.
We will have even more pissed off people here when collusion is proven to not have happened then the day after our great Preidential election of 2016 when everyone woke up and Trump had been elected.

uh, that is not going to happen. you realize that, right?

there is no "proving the non existence" of things in the courts.

there is sufficient and insufficient evidence. that is it.

just because OJ was not convicted does not mean he didn't do it.

this gets even weirder in the case of Trump because it is possible that there IS sufficient evidence, but that he can't be PROSECUTED for it.

and yeah, we will all be disappointed if that happens, but it doesn't mean anything CLOSE to what you are saying it means.

[happyhoix]

Feb 8, 2019 19:11:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 8, 2019 12:22:41 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Why do you find it unlikely Muellers findings, if substantial, would have leaked to the media by now, if they existed?

Of course, I fully expect that, even if there IS some black and white evidence pointing directly back at Trump, Trumpettes will insist it's all fake news.

However, I think we shouldn't be making assumptions one way or another until the fat lady has actually sung.

How do you gauge "making assumptions"? For 30 months I've been reading threads stacked wall-to-wall with members convinced (or at least extremely confident) that the Mueller inquiry will bring down Pres. Trump. I've seen you aboard this bandwagon.

Virgil, everyone, including you, has spent time on these boards speculating. I'm not a journalist, and neither are you (at least, not on these boards) so we're all free to speculate as much as we want to speculate.  Haven't you posted pages and pages of posts in the past about how Western civilization is declining and about to go over the edge into chaos and mass murder - yet you have no proof that is about to happen, or will ever happen. That doesn't prevent you from looking at our current state, linking data into what you consider to be a reasonable hypothesis, and posting it here - many, many times, and with 100% conviction it will come true. And there is nothing wrong with that.

So please allow the rest of us to study the data, postulate on links between various Trump employees and friends, on reports from different investigations going on around us, and put together our own speculation about what will happen in the future. 

As for any of us being extremely disappointed if Mueller produces nothing of substance at all? I think we're capable of surviving that. You've lived so far without civilization collapsing, even though you've been predicting that for years, right? Are you wrong about that, or do you still believe it will happen at any time? Will you be disappointed if you die in your bed as an old man, and civilization is still staggering along like a drunken man?

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 9, 2019 20:17:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Feb 8, 2019 19:11:06 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

How do you gauge "making assumptions"? For 30 months I've been reading threads stacked wall-to-wall with members convinced (or at least extremely confident) that the Mueller inquiry will bring down Pres. Trump. I've seen you aboard this bandwagon.

Virgil, everyone, including you, has spent time on these boards speculating. I'm not a journalist, and neither are you (at least, not on these boards) so we're all free to speculate as much as we want to speculate.  Haven't you posted pages and pages of posts in the past about how Western civilization is declining and about to go over the edge into chaos and mass murder - yet you have no proof that is about to happen, or will ever happen. That doesn't prevent you from looking at our current state, linking data into what you consider to be a reasonable hypothesis, and posting it here - many, many times, and with 100% conviction it will come true. And there is nothing wrong with that.

So please allow the rest of us to study the data, postulate on links between various Trump employees and friends, on reports from different investigations going on around us, and put together our own speculation about what will happen in the future. 

As for any of us being extremely disappointed if Mueller produces nothing of substance at all? I think we're capable of surviving that. You've lived so far without civilization collapsing, even though you've been predicting that for years, right? Are you wrong about that, or do you still believe it will happen at any time? Will you be disappointed if you die in your bed as an old man, and civilization is still staggering along like a drunken man?

1. Western civilization is collapsing. Not overnight, but I've never claimed as much. Regarding dates: I've only included them for specific milestones such as sovereign defaults, passage of laws, etc., and even then, rarely. Search for "prediction" in my post record and you'll find itemized lists of my on-the-record predictions.
   
   
2. I certainly will be disappointed if/when Western civilization collapses. Only a fool would look forward to "chaos and mass murder", as you put it.
   
   
3. The sum total of my speculative doomsaying over the past 10 years, which you call "pages and pages of posts", might fill 4-5 30-post pages if we gleaned every sentence remotely befitting. Contrast this with the hundreds of threads and thousands of pages devoted to the almighty Mueller inquiry in the past 2 years, the two aren't even in the same universe.
   

I believe I can speak on behalf of Value Buy in saying that neither of us is trying to discourage your endless speculation per se. Consider us "concerned witnesses" to the sheer volume of the stuff you've heaped up, and to the arrant hatred of Pres. Trump driving its accrual. We're watching with dismay (or in VB's case, amusement), knowing perfectly well what will happen to two years of pent-up malevolence if Mr. Mueller fails to deliver Pres. Trump's head on a pike.

"I think we're capable of surviving that."

Yeah. Barely.

[Tennesseer]

Civilizations have come and gone.  Yet humans continues to exist.

Much ado about nothing.

[Virgil Showlion]

Feb 10, 2019 11:43:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Civilizations have come and gone.  Yet humans continues to exist.

Much ado about nothing.

Presidents have come and gone. Yet humans continues to exist.

Much ado about nothing.

[Tennesseer]

Feb 10, 2019 13:43:12 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 10, 2019 11:43:31 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

Civilizations have come and gone.  Yet humans continues to exist.

Much ado about nothing.

Presidents have come and gone. Yet humans continues to exist.

Much ado about nothing.

That's right. trump will be gone soon enough. One way or another.

[Rukh O'Rorke]

Feb 10, 2019 11:24:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 9, 2019 20:17:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Virgil, everyone, including you, has spent time on these boards speculating. I'm not a journalist, and neither are you (at least, not on these boards) so we're all free to speculate as much as we want to speculate.  Haven't you posted pages and pages of posts in the past about how Western civilization is declining and about to go over the edge into chaos and mass murder - yet you have no proof that is about to happen, or will ever happen. That doesn't prevent you from looking at our current state, linking data into what you consider to be a reasonable hypothesis, and posting it here - many, many times, and with 100% conviction it will come true. And there is nothing wrong with that.

So please allow the rest of us to study the data, postulate on links between various Trump employees and friends, on reports from different investigations going on around us, and put together our own speculation about what will happen in the future. 

As for any of us being extremely disappointed if Mueller produces nothing of substance at all? I think we're capable of surviving that. You've lived so far without civilization collapsing, even though you've been predicting that for years, right? Are you wrong about that, or do you still believe it will happen at any time? Will you be disappointed if you die in your bed as an old man, and civilization is still staggering along like a drunken man?

1. Western civilization is collapsing. 

LOL, the irony here is rich.

[happyhoix]

Feb 10, 2019 11:24:52 GMT -5 Virgil Showlion said:

Feb 9, 2019 20:17:13 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Virgil, everyone, including you, has spent time on these boards speculating. I'm not a journalist, and neither are you (at least, not on these boards) so we're all free to speculate as much as we want to speculate.  Haven't you posted pages and pages of posts in the past about how Western civilization is declining and about to go over the edge into chaos and mass murder - yet you have no proof that is about to happen, or will ever happen. That doesn't prevent you from looking at our current state, linking data into what you consider to be a reasonable hypothesis, and posting it here - many, many times, and with 100% conviction it will come true. And there is nothing wrong with that.

So please allow the rest of us to study the data, postulate on links between various Trump employees and friends, on reports from different investigations going on around us, and put together our own speculation about what will happen in the future. 

As for any of us being extremely disappointed if Mueller produces nothing of substance at all? I think we're capable of surviving that. You've lived so far without civilization collapsing, even though you've been predicting that for years, right? Are you wrong about that, or do you still believe it will happen at any time? Will you be disappointed if you die in your bed as an old man, and civilization is still staggering along like a drunken man?

1. Western civilization is collapsing. Not overnight, but I've never claimed as much. Regarding dates: I've only included them for specific milestones such as sovereign defaults, passage of laws, etc., and even then, rarely. Search for "prediction" in my post record and you'll find itemized lists of my on-the-record predictions.
   
   
2. I certainly will be disappointed if/when Western civilization collapses. Only a fool would look forward to "chaos and mass murder", as you put it.
   
   
3. The sum total of my speculative doomsaying over the past 10 years, which you call "pages and pages of posts", might fill 4-5 30-post pages if we gleaned every sentence remotely befitting. Contrast this with the hundreds of threads and thousands of pages devoted to the almighty Mueller inquiry in the past 2 years, the two aren't even in the same universe.
   

I believe I can speak on behalf of Value Buy in saying that neither of us is trying to discourage your endless speculation per se. Consider us "concerned witnesses" to the sheer volume of the stuff you've heaped up, and to the arrant hatred of Pres. Trump driving its accrual. We're watching with dismay (or in VB's case, amusement), knowing perfectly well what will happen to two years of pent-up malevolence if Mr. Mueller fails to deliver Pres. Trump's head on a pike.

"I think we're capable of surviving that."

Yeah. Barely.

My point, Virgil, is not the quantity of your end times speculation, I just wanted to point out that you do tend to speculate about a dark and dismal future on these boards, so you can't complain about anyone else also engaging in speculation on these boards.  Not when you do it, too.

I appreciate you worrying about how I will feel if Mueller's investigation doesn't discover anything concrete, but you shouldn't waste any time worrying about my feelings, or the feelings of other anti-Trump Americans.  For someone who believes the end of civilization is coming, the potential hurt feelings of a bunch of Americans is a small thing, isn't it?