steff
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Post by steff on Aug 13, 2017 22:00:40 GMT -5
www.cnn.com/2017/08/13/us/kentucky-confederate-monuments/index.htmlThe mayor of Lexington, Kentucky, is taking action to remove two Confederate-era monuments from his city's former courthouse after the deadly clashes in Virginia. Mayor Jim Gray revealed his intention Saturday after the attack in Charlottesville. He said he planned to announce it this week, but the incident prompted him to declare his intentions earlier. Violent clashes between white nationalists and counter-protesters left three people dead in Charlottesville, including a woman killed when a driver plowed into a group of counterprotesters. Dozens more were injured. The statues of John Hunt Morgan and John C. Breckinridge are on the grounds of Lexington's former courthouse, which is set to become a visitor's center. John Hunt Morgan served in the Mexican-American war, and fought for the Confederacy until his death in 1864. John C Breckinridge, who was the 14th Vice President of the US, owned slaves. I bet the Nazi's & KKK members couldn't even tell you who these 2 people were.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 13, 2017 22:04:44 GMT -5
Trying to erase history doesn't change it.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 13, 2017 22:07:54 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 13, 2017 22:11:30 GMT -5
Did you cheer when statues of Sadam Hussein were brought down in Iraq? Do you agree with Stalin's monuments coming down? What about when the US blew the swatzikas off Germany's parliament?
and often the Confederate statues are being moved to a less visible place or into museums. They aren't being destroyed, just removed.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 13, 2017 22:11:47 GMT -5
Trying to erase history doesn't change it. Racism shouldn't be CELEBRATED with monuments and statues, either.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 13, 2017 22:12:59 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. Some monuments like the ones in either Arizona or New Mexico and some in New Orleans were erected in the 60s, as in the 1960s. There's no history to that, that's about oppression & intimidation.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 13, 2017 22:23:50 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. Same ones who carried around the flags of TWO losing sides the past weekend. the KKK and Nazis.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 13, 2017 22:33:41 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. How about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial?
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 13, 2017 22:40:04 GMT -5
How do statues of John Hunt Morgan and John C. Breckinridge honor the dead lost in battle like the Vietnam Memorial does? How does a statue of Jefferson Davis or Robert E Lee honor the names of specific soldiers lost in specific battles like the Vietnam Memorial does?
Monuments with the names of those lost on battlefields is not even in the same ballpark as statues of Generals & Confederate leaders. No one is saying that monuments to the dead at Gettysburgh, Vicksburgh, or Andersonville be taken down.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 13, 2017 22:53:37 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. How about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial? What Steff said.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Aug 13, 2017 23:04:03 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. How about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial? What about it? It's a memorial to those who died fulfilling their obligations to their country, regardless of how stupid and ill-conceived that war was. They did their duty.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 13, 2017 23:06:59 GMT -5
I am going to point it out again, In the interest of rewriting history of oppression & intimidation.
Let's be completely politically correct remove the name statues and everything else of the first thirteen Presidents that owned or used slaves.
What is the problem with that??
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 13, 2017 23:12:43 GMT -5
Trying to erase history doesn't change it. One does not erase history or change it by taking down a statue as the history of the person memorialized in a statue will always be available in history books, warts and all in this case.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 14, 2017 11:39:50 GMT -5
Even if this was erasing or rewriting history, you'd think most would be ok with it. I mean, really, who wants proof that you were fucking stupid enough to spend money on monuments to those who lost the war. How about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial? That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
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steff
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Post by steff on Aug 14, 2017 19:38:34 GMT -5
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 15, 2017 11:16:27 GMT -5
How about the Vietnam Veterans Memorial? That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage!
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Aug 15, 2017 11:34:14 GMT -5
To the victors go the spoils. The confederates lost. Get over it.
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justme
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Post by justme on Aug 15, 2017 11:59:52 GMT -5
You act as if we've always had a voluntary army. It was not all voluntary for many of the big wars. Our soldiers were not necessarily fighting for something they believed in, rather doing their duty.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Aug 15, 2017 13:02:10 GMT -5
That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! LOL! You win!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 13:23:32 GMT -5
That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! I think we should bulldoze ALL cemeteries, kind of ridiculous in 2017 that we think we are all special little snowflakes deserving a spot on this earth forever by burying our corpses in the ground in metal/wood containers.
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hurley1980
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Post by hurley1980 on Aug 15, 2017 14:24:00 GMT -5
That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! Dude, chill out. They are removing statues from public places. They are not removing the real actual bones of the confederate leaders off the face of the earth, which is what you are suggesting we should do to the soldiers in your comment above. Apples and Oranges. And no one is freaking rewriting history....this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! No one is going around collecting all the history books and documentaries and burning them in a bonfire, trying to remove the fact that the confederate army ever existed.
I'm so hard, I've given myself a migraine!
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 15, 2017 15:04:55 GMT -5
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 15, 2017 17:55:06 GMT -5
The monuments were put up to honour heroes and prominent figures of the Confederate era. Tearing them down to countervail Southern nationalism and racism is a phenomenally bad idea. Of course, with Baltimore on its current trajectory, it'd only have been a few more years before looters stripped the monuments for scrap anyway.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Aug 15, 2017 17:58:55 GMT -5
The monuments were put up to honour heroes and prominent figures of the Confederate era. Tearing them down to countervail Southern nationalism and racism is a phenomenally bad idea. Of course, with Baltimore on its current trajectory, it'd only have been a few more years before looters stripped the monuments for scrap anyway. then why weren't they put up until the 1900's when the Jim Crow laws were passed? There is nothing wrong - and everything right - about moving them to a museum. They should not be celebrated, only remembered.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Aug 15, 2017 18:20:10 GMT -5
They should not be celebrated, only remembered. Why not? They fought valiantly, won great victories, founded cities, lead nations, accomplished great works. They embody the events, people, and history of vast eras, and your predecessors saw fit to memorialize them. They wanted the legacy openly preserved--not relegated to rot away in obscurity. From the perspective of "nothing wrong - and everything right", they stand as icons of Southern nationalism. Tearing them down will throw gasoline on America's culture war. Whether or not you approve of the censorship, I guarantee you you're not going to like the effects. It's a tangible act of aggression that people can point to and rally around.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 15, 2017 19:00:07 GMT -5
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! LOL! You win! Holy crap, Now what do I do with it, I've never won before!
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 15, 2017 19:26:34 GMT -5
That's a memorial to soldiers who died in battle. Generally it's NOT the soldiers fault for battles lost - it's their leaders fault.
So far, I haven't seen anyone trying to remove a memorial for the Confederate solders who died in the war. I think that MIGHT be a tough one to sell. Memorials to generals and politicians... aren't the same kind of memorial.
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes.Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! Speaking to the bolded, that's not necessarily true, OC. There was the small matter of conscription (the draft) which originated during the Civil War. When the war first began, men on both sides volunteered in numbers thinking the war wouldn't last long. The war fooled them. It went on, and on, and on and men stopped volunteering so the draft was initiated on both sides. It wasn't a matter of fighting for a cause. It was a matter of fighting or getting shot for trying to desert/deserting. Quite a different matter - a choice between might get shot and most certainly will be shot.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2017 21:55:01 GMT -5
Lee himself would never have supported his statue. He was very much for burying battlefield monuments and the sentiments that had fueled them.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 15, 2017 22:19:01 GMT -5
So many statues are not about what the person they "honor" would have wanted and are instead about a message that other people want to send by exploiting the honoree's image.
FDR went to great pains to prevent the public from ever seeing him in a wheelchair. Yet, in order to advance the idea that it's important to show people with disabilities in leadership positions, the FDR monument in DC has a statue of FDR in a wheelchair. FDR would have done anything in his power to prevent a statue showing him in a wheelchair, yet there it sits front and center to appease disability-rights advocates.
I don't pretend to know the best way to handle opposing views like this. While I think it's incredibly important to inspire and validate people with disabilities, I'm really uncomfortable with "honoring" someone with a depiction of them that they would personally abhor.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Aug 15, 2017 22:44:00 GMT -5
So these soldiers ever not fighting for a cause,, I am pretty sure that those involved in the battle were most certain fighting for a cause, Not because of the beer and partying? In the interest of political correctness, Let's bulldoze those cemeteries. so we can rewrite history,, There was no difference between the intent of the leaders and the troop's in the battles!!!!!!!!!! they were fighting to win their causes. Take one, take them all. If you don't agree you are a bunch hypocrites!,,, selective out rage! Dude, chill out. They are removing statues from public places. They are not removing the real actual bones of the confederate leaders off the face of the earth, which is what you are suggesting we should do to the soldiers in your comment above. Apples and Oranges. And no one is freaking rewriting history....this is the stupidest thing I have ever heard! No one is going around collecting all the history books and documentaries and burning them in a bonfire, trying to remove the fact that the confederate army ever existed.
I'm so hard, I've given myself a migraine!
We have a Nathan Bedford Forrest park in downtown Memphis. By coincidence Nathan Bedford Forrest died in Memphis in 1877. He was buried in Elmwood cemetery. In 1904 the remains of Forrest and his wife (died 1893 and buried beside him) were disinterred and buried under the newly erected statue of him in the park also named after him. Now many citizens want the statue of Forrest removed and relocated to Elmwood cemetery in addition to returning the remains of Forrest and his wife to same. When all the talk began about Forrest's statue being removed from the Memphis park and moving it and his remains back to the cemetery, the Tennessee state legislature created and passed a bill creating the Tennessee Historical Commission which must give its permission to move statues and memorials. The governor signed off on the bill. So the Forrest statue and mortal remains are an issue which needs to be resolved. To me, if Elmwood Cemetery was good for Forrest in 1877, it's still good enough for him and his statue in 2017. Interesting enough, just yesterday, Tennessee Governor Bill Haslam (R) recommended the bust of Nathan Bedford Forrest be removed the state capital building. He stated, “My position on this issue has not changed – I do not believe Nathan Bedford Forrest should be one of the individuals we honor at the Capitol. The General Assembly has established a process for addressing these matters and I strongly encourage the Capitol Commission and the Historical Commission to act.”Tennessee Governor Bill Haslam says Confederate General should not be honored at Capitol
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