Waffle
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Post by Waffle on Mar 25, 2011 14:24:03 GMT -5
KUDOS to those of you that iron. (I iron too.)
I don't buy the cleaning lady is justified BS. There are working poor families, that work just as many hours just to get buy and they don't, can't have cleaning ladies. It's not a necessity, it's a luxury.
Do I begrudge people their cleaning ladies - no, but let's not pretend it's a necessity for able bodied people to have cleaning help.
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HoneyBBQ
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Post by HoneyBBQ on Mar 25, 2011 14:38:12 GMT -5
I have a cleaning lady, but I do consider it a luxury. She'd be one of the last things to go if I were in a budget cruch, honestly. She comes 2x a month, $90 a pop.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Mar 25, 2011 14:41:23 GMT -5
Exactly. It is a luxury they can afford. But, to try to claim that they aren't as rich as people might think because they have all these necessary expenses is ridiculous.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 14:46:08 GMT -5
If it really was run of the mill middle class why have less than 5% of all American couples accomplished it? Living in NYC Metro area and working in wealthy areas has warped your sense of reality. I agree plumbers, locksmiths, etc. in the right area can make than kind of money but again if it were run of the mill, i.e. common wouldn't 10-20% at least of the population be pulling this off?
Because some people are single and make $125,000, or households have a single income. The NYC metro area is home to well over 20 million residents. It is a high cost of living area, with a very high level of taxation, and very high real estate prices.
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formerexpat
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Post by formerexpat on Mar 25, 2011 14:55:23 GMT -5
Yep - exactly. My mother's husband LLC'd himself the other year and pulls in more than that as a master diesel mechanic. The key is to find tax efficient ways to keep more of that money after paying $10k for health insurance, over $17k in SECA, federal and state taxes.
I'll take a look at these but you can always tell the do it yourselfers. I don't mean to sound pompous but that simply won't work for the senior management track professionals. It also might not be worth an hour of their time for $50 a week.
Believe me, I hate that appearance matters. I am equally proficient if I'm in the office as I am working from home in my sweats but if I want to play the game [and have the compensation that goes with that game], then I've got to play by those rules. I consider myself pretty against the grain in terms of conformity and do set a number of my own rules but there are certain things [appearance being one] that you can't get around. [/size]
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achelois
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Post by achelois on Mar 25, 2011 14:58:47 GMT -5
I don't make quite 250k, 234k until recently when I gave up 50k/year of it in order to come out of the call rotation.
Not rich. Comfortable.
I drive a Mazda5 , wear scrubs to work, do my own cleaning and yard work and live in a neighborhood with a minister, firefighter, teacher and OR nurse for neighbors. Nothing fancy.
I don't go on a vacation every year, either--I live within reasonable driving distance to beach, so go there.
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comom1
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Post by comom1 on Mar 25, 2011 15:16:44 GMT -5
"I'll take a look at these but you can always tell the do it yourselfers."
Take a look. I was impressed and I have a father and BILs that all send their shirts out. I wouldn't have tried them except that the salesman had one on and it looked fabulous. I figure if the BB salesman is selling them, they'd better look damn good.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 25, 2011 15:18:21 GMT -5
The NYC metro area is home to well over 20 million residents. It is a high cost of living area, with a very high level of taxation, and very high real estate prices. Out of the 350 million or so people living in the country, so they're a little less than 6% of the population, or a very very small minority. If you choose to be rich in one of the few places in the country where a lot of other people are also rich which drives up the cost of everything and makes you feel less rich, that's your choice, it doesn't make you middle class though. Not to mention all the people living in NYC that make 50k a year. If 250k is hum drum middle class, how are the people making 50k even able to eat?
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 15:24:07 GMT -5
Out of the 350 million or so people living in the country, so they're a little less than 6% of the population, or a very very small minority. If you choose to be rich in one of the few places in the country where a lot of other people are also rich which drives up the cost of everything and makes you feel less rich, that's your choice, it doesn't make you middle class though.
The NYC metro area is an employment hot spot, as typically all large metropolitan areas are. People live in NYC, Long Island, Westchester, NJ, MA, CA, etc., because this is where the jobs are....at the moment. What drives up the cost of living is primarily taxation.
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comom1
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Post by comom1 on Mar 25, 2011 15:28:29 GMT -5
People live in NYC, Long Island, Westchester, NJ, MA, CA, etc., because this is where the jobs are....at the moment. What drives up the cost of living is primarily taxation
That still doesn't explain all those people that manage to live in the NYC area without making 6 figures a year. You're not middle class if you earn 250k, sorry.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 25, 2011 15:33:01 GMT -5
What drives up the cost of living is primarily taxation. This should be good. Please explain, for those of us who don't live up there, how taxation caused apartments to cost a million dollars? I'm probably just an uneducated country bumpkin, but I thought it was supply and demand mixed with a lot of high paying jobs. Please correct me though, I'm really curious.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 15:33:03 GMT -5
That still doesn't explain all those people that manage to live in the NYC area without making 6 figures a year. You're not middle class if you earn 250k, sorry.
I am not debating that point.... I lived in northern NJ for well over a decade before earning over $100,000.
One can get an inexpensive apartment to rent, instead of buying a $1.4 million condo, or a $600,000 attached row house.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 15:35:40 GMT -5
This should be good. Please explain, for those of us who don't live up there, how taxation caused apartments to cost a million dollars? I'm probably just an uneducated country bumpkin, but I thought it was supply and demand mixed with a lot of high paying jobs. Please correct me though, I'm really curious
A $1.4 milion condo will have a hefty tax bill, likely $75,000.
Property taxes affect rent directly. Back about four years ago, the house I rent an apartment in(northern NJ) had the property taxes raised by roughly 20%, which amounted to a $2400 increase per year. Subsequently, my rent was raised $100. Property taxes on the house are a bit over $12,000.
A friend of mine, an old GF, owned a home in Mountain Lakes, NJ, her property taxes were $50,000 when she sold a few years ago.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2011 15:36:50 GMT -5
$250k a year is rich.
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DVM gone riding
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Post by DVM gone riding on Mar 25, 2011 15:37:39 GMT -5
well to do?? upper middle class. to me "rich" means independently wealthy. This couple could be just as devistated financial by a job loss (most likely more so) then you or I and they most likely give up a lot to have that income. Many of them are going to be worse off in retirement then you or I because they think the money will always be there and it takes a lot to maintain an upper upper middle class lifestyle.
What was that movie where the guy looses his VP job and they reposes his yard (come and roll up the grass) and he tries to be a day laborer and is deported to Mexico?? It has the guy from Ace venture in it??
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 15:37:53 GMT -5
$250k a year is rich. Screw you Arch.... just kidding...LOL
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 15:38:58 GMT -5
well to do?? upper middle class. to me "rich" means independently wealthy. This couple could be just as devistated financial by a job loss (most likely more so) then you or I and they most likely give up a lot to have that income. Many of them are going to be worse off in retirement then you or I because they think the money will always be there and it takes a lot to maintain an upper upper middle class lifestyle.
People here, as usual, are confusing high salaries with being wealthy.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2011 15:46:43 GMT -5
Well - until the government replaces the income tax with a wealth tax the only way we can "tax the rich" is to base it on income. And that will continue to muddle the definition between rich and highly paid.
But you are totally correct - I know people who earn $50k, but are millionaires, and people who earn $500k and are broke. I'm not sure who is suppose to pay all those additional taxes - the rich guy, or the over-spender. But, my answer is always the same "Can't the government do what I had to do and spend less?"
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 25, 2011 15:49:04 GMT -5
A $1.4 milion condo will have a hefty tax bill, likely $75,000. Yes, but the reason the condo costs $1.4 mil has nothing to do with taxes. The price is driven up by a lot of people with a lot of money constantly outbidding each other to live there. And you know what we call people with a lot of money right? (Hint: the answer we're looking for is rich)
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sil
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Post by sil on Mar 25, 2011 15:50:16 GMT -5
I think the posters who are nit-picking about the $5000 annual spend for housecleaning or the $1250 for drycleaning because they are able to work and iron their own shirts or clean their own homes are kind of missing the point.
If both adults are working a mid-management type of a job (based on the hypotheticals of student loans, location, and education, this is probably the case for our imaginary couple) they are probably putting in 50 - 60 hour weeks, not including commutes, calls at home, and work-related travel. They also have 2 young kids.
With these schedules, if they didnt outsource some of the household functions they would barely see their kids.
If 2 working parents want to, but cannot afford to spend time with their kids because their required work hours/commute/household chores takes 14+ hours a day, they are not "Rich" IMO.
Our hypothetical family is dealing with this problem by outsourcing some of the household chores, which makes sense to me. What doesnt make sense, is that in many cases they are running a budget in the red. Most likely, the hypothetical family would cut some discretionary spending (e.g. cut back kids activities, dining out and vacations) and not max out the savings in order to keep a stable budget and spend time together as a family........which sounds like a pretty "middle class" way of life to me.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 25, 2011 16:00:31 GMT -5
If both adults are working a mid-management type of a job (based on the hypotheticals of student loans, location, and education, this is probably the case for our imaginary couple) they are probably putting in 50 - 60 hour weeks, not including commutes, calls at home, and work-related travel. They also have 2 young kids. This hasn't been my experience. Outside of workaholics who choose to put in crazy hours, the poorer people I've known tend to work the most hours as they're the most likely to have a full time job and a part time job. Some of the more highly paid people do routinely put in more hours, but mid-management usually doesn't. It could just be my industry, IT, but when the shat hits the fan on Saturday you don't call in a manager. You call in a tech who can actually fix it. In this company from mid-management on up you're far more likely to work pretty strictly 9-5 Mon-Fri, and never cover weekends. From entry-level through senior associate you're more likely to have to stay until the work is done, and be covering weekends now and then. Obviously the managers, VPs, regional muckity mucks, and whatnot make more than the associates.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2011 16:13:36 GMT -5
Dark - I agree that your average mid-level directors and such that would fall into a $150k salary range in a MCOL area aren't often burning the midnight oil - especially mid-career. I do find that with the companies I've worked for, that level of person seems to travel a lot. They are visiting vendors, customers, branches, etc. My father was probably the equivilant to this and he traveled a lot. Now, mom picked up the slack by either being home, or by having a lower-level job. Plus, her ridiculous work ethic that made all her housework seem easy - but that is besides the point. The only people I know that were high earners and working midnights and Saturdays are lawyers. But that is just a show because they are all egotistical weinies.
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Sum Dum Gai
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Post by Sum Dum Gai on Mar 25, 2011 16:18:44 GMT -5
CPAs work crazy long hours, even mid career, but only for the first quarter of the year. They work like 20 hour weeks all summer, and still whine about how hard tax season was the whole time. I figure on balance it's a wash and they're pretty much 9-5 schlubs like the rest of us.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2011 16:23:24 GMT -5
We are all whiny about our busy season...
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❤ mollymouser ❤
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Post by ❤ mollymouser ❤ on Mar 25, 2011 16:25:12 GMT -5
We live in central California. Anyone (or couple) around here who earns $250,000 per year would pretty much fall into the "rich" or "very well off" category for our area. But at some point, that's just a label ... ya know?
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stats45
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Post by stats45 on Mar 25, 2011 16:33:50 GMT -5
Excellent term Dark with 'working rich'.
I think it might depend as well on how long the household has been making that income. In the first year or two, they probably aren't 'rich' in that they are likely to have housing debt, maybe student loan debt, and few assets. Twenty years later continuously making that income it would probably be safe to think of the household as rich if they have been acting responsibly.
I still have a hard time classifying someone as rich based solely on income. I tend to think of people with high income plus over $1-2 million in assets or less income with $5-$10 million in assets as rich.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2011 16:41:08 GMT -5
The other factor is how fast they spent that money. If the day they both got these jobs they ran out and bought the most house they possibly could, and they got two nice cars, too - well then, sure a tax increase will hurt a lot more than if they had lots of time to save and plan and made good decisions along the way.
I agree about nitpicking the $5k. If their budget is so tight that they having to pay an additional $5 - $10k in taxes is devastating, they have some hefty fixed expenses.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Mar 25, 2011 16:46:22 GMT -5
I think people are confusing things here: wage/income does not determine "rich" in my opinion. For instance, people who have won millions in the lottery have ended up broke and in debt...but are they rich? They received millions so they must be, right?
If this couple earns $250k a year but is in debt $2 million, are they still rich?
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 25, 2011 16:53:10 GMT -5
jkapp - the problem is that people keep saying "Tax the rich" and Obama stood up and said $250k = rich. The problem isn't that we are confused - the problem is that we have an INCOME tax, not a WEALTH tax. If you want to tax people who HAVE money, you have to change our entire structure. We currently tax people who EARN money.
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Post by Savoir Faire-Demogague in NJ on Mar 25, 2011 17:13:07 GMT -5
This hasn't been my experience. Outside of workaholics who choose to put in crazy hours, the poorer people I've known tend to work the most hours as they're the most likely to have a full time job and a part time job. Some of the more highly paid people do routinely put in more hours, but mid-management usually doesn't. It could just be my industry, IT, but when the shat hits the fan on Saturday you don't call in a manager. You call in a tech who can actually fix it.
You really need to get out more, and get some new friends. The couple in the article putting in 60 hours per week at their level of pay is quite normal. My ex and I, back in the late 80s both worked and we had three young kids. We needed a live in nanny and house keeper. Back then it cost us just under $800 per month.
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