gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Aug 10, 2017 10:03:31 GMT -5
I don't know where the 20% figure originated - was it from tractor? If it is accurate and they do give away 20% of their annual income then that equates to $32,000 (160 x 20%) - that's the entire discrepancy between his wife's current and future jobs.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:04:02 GMT -5
But your answer is then for tractor to pick up the slack. How is that fair to him?
If he would not give away 20% of their income, that would go a long way to helping out. He is the one who claims that he is generous and he loves doing it. Only problem is that he's not willing to give a comparable amount to his wife. How is that fair? But he never said she was against the spending. I know they are paying for their son's college...is that included in the 20% and has the wife agreed to it? Just because tractor said he loves doing it doesn't mean she was against it. We need tractor to clarify that with us. If she is against it then yes, they need to come to an agreement on that, too.
I will never agree that one spouse has the right to make any huge financial decisions for their family without consent of the other, and that includes both earning and spending.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 10, 2017 10:04:33 GMT -5
I don't know where the 20% figure originated - was it from tractor ? If it is accurate and they do give away 20% of their annual income then that equates to $32,000 (160 x 20%) - that's the entire discrepancy between his wife's current and future jobs. Yep.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 10, 2017 10:05:38 GMT -5
"support" is not the same as "do whatever you feel like doing without even bothering to figure out the consequences of your actions". If I decide tomorrow that I am going to reduce my part of the household chores by 40% because they make me miserable, how is it fair to my spouse. Based on this thread he should totally support me because by doing that he will be helping me reduce MY stress. Forget about HIS stress when he has to shoulder that 40%. Can you even imagine the venom if I came on here posting about how I was going to stop helping out at home because I find it stressful and it's "killing me", and instead I just expected my wife to pick up the slack because she happens to enjoy doing her share of the housework she does currently? I'm not going to hire someone else to do it, my wife can just do those chores in the time she currently spends volunteering for her favorite charities...instead of donating that time to charity she should just donate it to her spouse because I deserve it.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Aug 10, 2017 10:07:37 GMT -5
Exactly. While I have no issues in a spouse staying home or taking a lower paying job WITH THEIR SPOUSE ONBOARD, in this case it is so not the case. Maybe her stress taking abilities are just plain lower then tractor? Maybe she cannot handle work pressures the way tractor does? Maybe he is happier at his job because he has figured out what makes it work and how to handle it? Maybe she stresses over things that are ultimately not important? Who is to say. However, instead of trying to find a similar job where she won't have to take a huge paycut she has decided she will do as she pleases. Because tractor got a pay raise so it offsets everything. THAT is a huge issue in my opinion. His hard work does not give her the license to as she please WITHOUT HIM BEING ONBOARD with it. All things are possible in marriage and people take decisions that support their families. But a unilateral decision which makes one spouse very unhappy is definitely not it. She has had this job for 23 years. It's not a matter of her being able to handle stress, but the fact that she has dealt with it for so long. Someone posted that 75% of the people burn out in 10 years, that statistic alone should make people stop back and think what kind of job this is that by the time you hit your stride in your profession, the stress of it drives you out. Stress handling is absolutely a factor. You or I don't know the ways tractor or his wife handle stress. He might just be doing a way better job than her in managing his stress. All things considered, why her obsession with this job? Why is she not looking at other jobs per tractor's recommendation? Why the unilateral decision? HE is expected to listen to her, while she is not doing the same.
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swasat
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Post by swasat on Aug 10, 2017 10:08:29 GMT -5
If I decide tomorrow that I am going to reduce my part of the household chores by 40% because they make me miserable, how is it fair to my spouse. Based on this thread he should totally support me because by doing that he will be helping me reduce MY stress. Forget about HIS stress when he has to shoulder that 40%. Can you even imagine the venom if I came on here posting about how I was going to stop helping out at home because I find it stressful and it's "killing me", and instead I just expected my wife to pick up the slack because she happens to enjoy doing her share of the housework she does currently? I'm not going to hire someone else to do it, my wife can just do those chores in the time she currently spends volunteering for her favorite charities...instead of donating that time to charity she should just donate it to her spouse because I deserve it. I absolutely can
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Aug 10, 2017 10:08:57 GMT -5
70k is probably the top of the pay scale for working in special ed. My guess is she makes that much because she does overnights. This is incorrect, she actually has more room on her existing pay scale and doesn't work overnight. Not that it matters, but I don't want the facts to get too far out there.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 10, 2017 10:09:07 GMT -5
Exactly. While I have no issues in a spouse staying home or taking a lower paying job WITH THEIR SPOUSE ONBOARD, in this case it is so not the case. Maybe her stress taking abilities are just plain lower then tractor? Maybe she cannot handle work pressures the way tractor does? Maybe he is happier at his job because he has figured out what makes it work and how to handle it? Maybe she stresses over things that are ultimately not important? Who is to say. However, instead of trying to find a similar job where she won't have to take a huge paycut she has decided she will do as she pleases. Because tractor got a pay raise so it offsets everything. THAT is a huge issue in my opinion. His hard work does not give her the license to as she please WITHOUT HIM BEING ONBOARD with it. All things are possible in marriage and people take decisions that support their families. But a unilateral decision which makes one spouse very unhappy is definitely not it. She has had this job for 23 years. It's not a matter of her being able to handle stress, but the fact that she has dealt with it for so long. Someone posted that 75% of the people burn out in 10 years, that statistic alone should make people stop back and think what kind of job this is that by the time you hit your stride in your profession, the stress of it drives you out. So if you go into a high-stress job, you plan. What was her plan she discussed with her husband for what she'd do if she burned out? What did they agree to together? It certainly doesn't sound like they agreed she could just take a big paycut whenever she felt like it.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:09:37 GMT -5
But your answer is then for tractor to pick up the slack. How is that fair to him?
What slack? That's the point I (and I think some other posters) are trying to make. He's not being asked to work more hours or pick up a second job. In essence, he's being asked to stop giving away money to other people in exchange for his spouse's improved mental well-being. But even if they mutually agreed to stop giving away money (again, are we talking son's college or supporting able-bodied adults??), that doesn't mean she just gets to take a $30k pay cut. That puts all of the risk on Tractor. He has a great job but what if he loses it? Can they live on $40k a year? What does that do to their investing and retirement goals?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:10:13 GMT -5
It honestly shocks me that so many people just expect tractor to be ok with a $30k loss in income.
Exactly. While I have no issues in a spouse staying home or taking a lower paying job WITH THEIR SPOUSE ONBOARD, in this case it is so not the case. Maybe her stress taking abilities are just plain lower then tractor? Maybe she cannot handle work pressures the way tractor does? Maybe he is happier at his job because he has figured out what makes it work and how to handle it? Maybe she stresses over things that are ultimately not important? Who is to say. However, instead of trying to find a similar job where she won't have to take a huge paycut she has decided she will do as she pleases. Because tractor got a pay raise so it offsets everything. THAT is a huge issue in my opinion. His hard work does not give her the license to as she please WITHOUT HIM BEING ONBOARD with it. All things are possible in marriage and people take decisions that support their families. But a unilateral decision which makes one spouse very unhappy is definitely not it.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 10, 2017 10:11:21 GMT -5
70k is probably the top of the pay scale for working in special ed. My guess is she makes that much because she does overnights. This is incorrect, she actually has more room on her existing pay scale and doesn't work overnight. Not that it matters, but I don't want the facts to get too far out there. So the other bright spot we found is that it likely doesn't affect her pension if it's truly the highest 3-year average. Does she have $30k of discretionary spending to cut out each year to afford this job?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 10, 2017 10:11:56 GMT -5
She has had this job for 23 years. It's not a matter of her being able to handle stress, but the fact that she has dealt with it for so long. Someone posted that 75% of the people burn out in 10 years, that statistic alone should make people stop back and think what kind of job this is that by the time you hit your stride in your profession, the stress of it drives you out. Stress handling is absolutely a factor. You or I don't know the ways tractor or his wife handle stress. He might just be doing a way better job than her in managing his stress. All things considered, why her obsession with this job? Why is she not looking at other jobs per tractor's recommendation? Why the unilateral decision? HE is expected to listen to her, while she is not doing the same. If I had to hazard a guess, she knows that she's at her breaking point. She has looked for 2 years, and jobs paying $70K/year do not just drop into your lap. Even if she did manage to get another job as an admin, she'd VERY likely not be making anywhere near $70K because she has no experience in it. She has a lot of experience in what she does.
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saveinla
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Post by saveinla on Aug 10, 2017 10:12:57 GMT -5
Support also means stepping back and looking at your actions and wants, and how they are affecting your spouse. If my spouse had a job that was killing him, especially if finances were not critical, I would want them to be happy and less stressed, regardless of money. Tractor's actions have consequences too. What is is going to take for him to realize that an extremely stressful job (and considering she has been looking for 2 years and has had ONE bite) means that she has been trying to maneuver herself into a less stressful situation with not as much success as Tractor would like. Can we stop with all the melodramatics of "killing"? Has anything been suggested that this job is actually killing her? I'm not sure why whenever someone simply doesn't like doing something it has to become all dramatic and exaggerated.
Is that just how overly-dramatic people get their way in things like this?
If you knew me in real life, you will never consider me as dramatic. I never understood how much stress my DH was under in his job, until we were in the ER one day when he had a heart attack after one of his work calls. I am not one who brings the job home or allows me to be affected by it, but not all people are the same and that's what we need to consider. I also think that she has survived in a stressful job for 23 years and people cannot just say that she needs to suck it up.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Aug 10, 2017 10:13:00 GMT -5
"I'll try to answer a few questions, but first understand that I'm a selfish, greedy, generous person. I would never turn down a chance to make more $, but I take great joy in giving it away. " What part of that says anything about his wife not agreeing to do it together? The word "I".
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why Tractor is giving away a substantial portion of their income if he's concerned about a debt pay-off program.
Maybe he could go into some more detail about the debt?
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:13:50 GMT -5
As long as we were not hurting for money, I'd let her do it without question. I would, however, voice the expectation that her outside spending might have to be limited because of it. If she wants to give up $30,000/year in income, it needs to be taken into account elsewhere. If it requires a sacrifice of some sort, that is part of her choice. Then tractor better not be slacking in his home front because he took in more hours. If income is seiarate, everything is separate. I actually erased a portion of my 'more than pissed' comment above. In the case I'd described, I'd leave the marriage. Is know where I stood, how much I was vakued. It wouldn't be worth it. I could easily support myself in low cola on 40k and my pension. And to that point, if she up and takes this job without tractor's approval, he is well within his rights to leave the marriage because she clearly doesn't value him. No one has a god given right to have a man support them.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Aug 10, 2017 10:15:47 GMT -5
This is my personal bias but their life sounds way out of whack to me. They still have kids in the house but are both working very, very long hours. Tractor is going to be working even more hours. They give away a lot of money but can't slow down on saving money. How much downtime do you have? How is the housework getting done? How are you spending time together as a family? In short, it's not. House work doesn't get done, our children are now 17 and 20 and don't need us around, they are pretty independent because they need to be. We have very little downtime, and often take separate vacations because our schedules don't mix. However, before this gets too far out there, we have a great marriage, this is what works for us, going on 25 years now. We both feel strongly about giving back, since our time is limited, we give cash ( and more time than most).
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:15 GMT -5
This is incorrect, she actually has more room on her existing pay scale and doesn't work overnight. Not that it matters, but I don't want the facts to get too far out there. So the other bright spot we found is that it likely doesn't affect her pension if it's truly the highest 3-year average. Does she have $30k of discretionary spending to cut out each year to afford this job? No.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:31 GMT -5
This is incorrect, she actually has more room on her existing pay scale and doesn't work overnight. Not that it matters, but I don't want the facts to get too far out there. So the other bright spot we found is that it likely doesn't affect her pension if it's truly the highest 3-year average. Does she have $30k of discretionary spending to cut out each year to afford this job? But it actually will. I believe they are in their early/mid 40's. That means she would expect to continue to received small raises for the next 15 years until she retires. A quick calc says that $70k with 2% raises will turn into $94k by the time she retires. So if her pension is based on her highest 3 years, her highest three years would be in the $90s versus the $70s (or are we saying that teachers do not receive raises?)
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:47 GMT -5
Should she maintain the job working 16 hour days, and Tractor takes this position where he is going to be working longer hours and away more, who is going to be picking up the slack at home? Right now, Tractor's doing this.
It may turn out that that $30K winds up going to paying for things that compensate for the lack that both have jobs that take more than the 40 hour work week.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:52 GMT -5
If I decide tomorrow that I am going to reduce my part of the household chores by 40% because they make me miserable, how is it fair to my spouse. Based on this thread he should totally support me because by doing that he will be helping me reduce MY stress. Forget about HIS stress when he has to shoulder that 40%. Can you even imagine the venom if I came on here posting about how I was going to stop helping out at home because I find it stressful and it's "killing me", and instead I just expected my wife to pick up the slack because she happens to enjoy doing her share of the housework she does currently? I'm not going to hire someone else to do it, my wife can just do those chores in the time she currently spends volunteering for her favorite charities...instead of donating that time to charity she should just donate it to her spouse because I deserve it. I may not always agree with the things you post here but I've always thought that you were clearly an intelligent person. Which is why I'm surprised by what you just wrote. Do you honestly think that is a legitimate comparison? Household chores are certainly boring and unsatisfactory but as much as unloading the dishwasher annoys me, I could never compare that to going to work every day to a job I hate.
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Aug 10, 2017 10:17:38 GMT -5
If I decide tomorrow that I am going to reduce my part of the household chores by 40% because they make me miserable, how is it fair to my spouse. Based on this thread he should totally support me because by doing that he will be helping me reduce MY stress. Forget about HIS stress when he has to shoulder that 40%. Can you even imagine the venom if I came on here posting about how I was going to stop helping out at home because I find it stressful and it's "killing me", and instead I just expected my wife to pick up the slack because she happens to enjoy doing her share of the housework she does currently? I'm not going to hire someone else to do it, my wife can just do those chores in the time she currently spends volunteering for her favorite charities...instead of donating that time to charity she should just donate it to her spouse because I deserve it. There would be nothing left of you but a pile of bones.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Aug 10, 2017 10:17:41 GMT -5
Then tractor better not be slacking in his home front because he took in more hours. If income is seiarate, everything is separate. I actually erased a portion of my 'more than pissed' comment above. In the case I'd described, I'd leave the marriage. Is know where I stood, how much I was vakued. It wouldn't be worth it. I could easily support myself in low cola on 40k and my pension. And to that point, if she up and takes this job without tractor's approval, he is well within his rights to leave the marriage because she clearly doesn't value him. No one has a god given right to have a man support them. This won't happen, I value my marriage more than this. I would never throw away 25 years with her over $$$
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 10, 2017 10:19:43 GMT -5
So the other bright spot we found is that it likely doesn't affect her pension if it's truly the highest 3-year average. Does she have $30k of discretionary spending to cut out each year to afford this job? But it actually will. I believe they are in their early/mid 40's. That means she would expect to continue to received small raises for the next 15 years until she retires. A quick calc says that $70k with 2% raises will turn into $94k by the time she retires. So if her pension is based on her highest 3 years, her highest three years would be in the $90s versus the $70s (or are we saying that teachers do not receive raises?) His concern seemed more around whether a lower-paying job would drop the payment from whatever it would be calculated at today. There's a lost opportunity cost for sure, both in pension and in future yearly earnings...he didn't seem concerned about that though as much as the "recalculation" of the pension to incorporate the lower-earning job.
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tractor
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Post by tractor on Aug 10, 2017 10:21:28 GMT -5
What part of that says anything about his wife not agreeing to do it together? The word "I".
I'm still trying to wrap my mind around why Tractor is giving away a substantial portion of their income if he's concerned about a debt pay-off program.
Maybe he could go into some more detail about the debt?
Debt payoff includes 1 car, college tuition for my boys and two homes. Everything is manageable now. I know we're not normal in terms of money given away and I could have paid everything off years ago if we never donated a cent, but my life would be even more of an empty shell if I never gave back.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 10, 2017 10:21:44 GMT -5
This is my personal bias but their life sounds way out of whack to me. They still have kids in the house but are both working very, very long hours. Tractor is going to be working even more hours. They give away a lot of money but can't slow down on saving money. How much downtime do you have? How is the housework getting done? How are you spending time together as a family? In short, it's not. House work doesn't get done, our children are now 17 and 20 and don't need us around, they are pretty independent because they need to be. We have very little downtime, and often take separate vacations because our schedules don't mix. However, before this gets too far out there, we have a great marriage, this is what works for us, going on 25 years now. We both feel strongly about giving back, since our time is limited, we give cash ( and more time than most). This is what I don't understand. If you feel so strongly about giving back, why not giving back to your wife since she apparently needs it now. I think that the fact that she is unilaterally trying to do this means that she's in self preservation mode at this point and all you are thinking about is the $30K/year loss. Have you thought about seeing a therapist? It seems like you are talking at cross purposes.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:22:42 GMT -5
But it actually will. I believe they are in their early/mid 40's. That means she would expect to continue to received small raises for the next 15 years until she retires. A quick calc says that $70k with 2% raises will turn into $94k by the time she retires. So if her pension is based on her highest 3 years, her highest three years would be in the $90s versus the $70s (or are we saying that teachers do not receive raises?) His concern seemed more around whether a lower-paying job would drop the payment from whatever it would be calculated at today. There's a lost opportunity cost for sure, both in pension and in future yearly earnings...he didn't seem concerned about that though as much as the "recalculation" of the pension to incorporate the lower-earning job. Gotcha
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Aug 10, 2017 10:23:11 GMT -5
Can you even imagine the venom if I came on here posting about how I was going to stop helping out at home because I find it stressful and it's "killing me", and instead I just expected my wife to pick up the slack because she happens to enjoy doing her share of the housework she does currently? I'm not going to hire someone else to do it, my wife can just do those chores in the time she currently spends volunteering for her favorite charities...instead of donating that time to charity she should just donate it to her spouse because I deserve it. I may not always agree with the things you post here but I've always thought that you were clearly an intelligent person. Which is why I'm surprised by what you just wrote. Do you honestly think that is a legitimate comparison? Household chores are certainly boring and unsatisfactory but as much as unloading the dishwasher annoys me, I could never compare that to going to work every day to a job I hate. Just because YOU are only annoyed doesn't mean that I don't find it to be loathsome. Just like tractor likes his job and his wife HATES hers. I'm certainly entitled to HATE household chores as much as anyone else is entitled to HATE their job.
Heck, isn't that even more of a reason to those chores onto my wife? If she should only find them boring and unsatisfactory...and I HATE them...she should easily pick up all my slack for my mental health. I'm also considering "household chores" to consist of things you have to do for the kids, the lawn, repairs, etc. Much more than simply emptying the dishwasher.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Aug 10, 2017 10:24:18 GMT -5
And to that point, if she up and takes this job without tractor's approval, he is well within his rights to leave the marriage because she clearly doesn't value him. No one has a god given right to have a man support them. This won't happen, I value my marriage more than this. I would never throw away 25 years with her over $$$ I know that. I was making a point that if a woman would walk away from a man because he wouldn't financially support her, then a man has every right to do the same. That kind of attitude of "support me or I'm leaving" would certainly make me want to leave the person.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 10, 2017 10:25:17 GMT -5
But it actually will. I believe they are in their early/mid 40's. That means she would expect to continue to received small raises for the next 15 years until she retires. A quick calc says that $70k with 2% raises will turn into $94k by the time she retires. So if her pension is based on her highest 3 years, her highest three years would be in the $90s versus the $70s (or are we saying that teachers do not receive raises?) His concern seemed more around whether a lower-paying job would drop the payment from whatever it would be calculated at today. There's a lost opportunity cost for sure, both in pension and in future yearly earnings...he didn't seem concerned about that though as much as the "recalculation" of the pension to incorporate the lower-earning job. And if the stress she is under kills, her, her pension would be a moot point.
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cyanne
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Post by cyanne on Aug 10, 2017 10:26:09 GMT -5
I may not always agree with the things you post here but I've always thought that you were clearly an intelligent person. Which is why I'm surprised by what you just wrote. Do you honestly think that is a legitimate comparison? Household chores are certainly boring and unsatisfactory but as much as unloading the dishwasher annoys me, I could never compare that to going to work every day to a job I hate. Just because YOU are only annoyed doesn't mean that I don't find it to be loathsome. Just like tractor likes his job and his wife HATES hers. I'm certainly entitled to HATE household chores as much as anyone else is entitled to HATE their job.
Heck, isn't that even more of a reason to those chores onto my wife? If she should only find them boring and unsatisfactory...and I HATE them...she should easily pick up all my slack for my mental health. I'm also considering "household chores" to consist of things you have to do for the kids, the lawn, repairs, etc. Much more than simply emptying the dishwasher.
I can't speak for Tractor's wife but my dishes have never told me to f*ck off or physically assaulted me. My students have.
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