NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 8, 2017 13:51:52 GMT -5
Don't know about Pakistan but I was just talking to a Chinese co-worker and she commented that it is very hard for her to say "no" to our boss because in China you are supposed to do your duty. It's very disrespectful to say no to your superiors/elders.
Wonder if it's the same way in Pakistan?
I am also going to be the outlier her and say her husband is not a loser, at least by their own cultural standards. He is doing exactly what he has been groomed to do since birth when it comes to his parents and siblings. He is treating her as women are treated at "home".
From an white American woman viewpoint no he's not great husband material. Apparently in the eyes of her parents, he was for some reason or another. She wanted a traditional Pakistani arranged marriage and she got it. She is the outlier here, not anyone else. The time to have spoken up was before she got married and had three kids.
I am assuming she expected him to change. The smarter thing would have been for her to find her own Pakastani American husband.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 8, 2017 14:12:01 GMT -5
Maybe he's a decent guy just trying to do right by his parents/culture. Maybe he just married her to use her for a meal-ticket for his family, but I wonder what she gets out of all of this? Doesn't look like squat. She doesn't have a partner, but doesn't have someone to support her either. Probably be better off on her own.
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 8, 2017 18:44:46 GMT -5
I cannot comprehend a woman's family being so concerned with appearances that they would subject their daughter to that kind of marriage in the first place and then continue to shame and guilt her into staying in that nightmare, all apparently simply to save face. Appearances is currency in much of India and parts of the Middle East. Its wise to be aware of it because many have been killed or shunned over it. I think she needs to look at this very carefully. Her family is paying for her to stay in this marriage. There might be something behind the scenes they don't want to tell her about. If she chooses to leave, is she willing to never ever go to Pakistan even if her kids get taken there?
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Aug 8, 2017 18:49:49 GMT -5
Don't know about Pakistan but I was just talking to a Chinese co-worker and she commented that it is very hard for her to say "no" to our boss because in China you are supposed to do your duty. It's very disrespectful to say no to your superiors/elders. Wonder if it's the same way in Pakistan? I am also going to be the outlier her and say her husband is not a loser, at least by their own cultural standards. He is doing exactly what he has been groomed to do since birth when it comes to his parents and siblings. He is treating her as women are treated at "home". From an white American woman viewpoint no he's not great husband material. Apparently in the eyes of her parents, he was for some reason or another. She wanted a traditional Pakistani arranged marriage and she got it. She is the outlier here, not anyone else. The time to have spoken up was before she got married and had three kids. I am assuming she expected him to change. The smarter thing would have been for her to find her own Pakastani American husband. Did I miss something in this thread? Did she want an arranged marriage or did she go with it to not upset her parents and relatives? There are many arranged marriages I know about concerning techie types working in America and many do it because they do not want to alienate or be dropped by family. Often ethnicity and religion play a big part in what families are willing to accept in a match.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Aug 9, 2017 7:56:51 GMT -5
I know what I would do, but that's coming from a different cultural space.
It sounds like ultimately she's going to have to make a hard decision one way or the other. Is it worse to stay in the marriage and put up with this money sending and behavior? Or is it better to have a divorce and deal with the fallout/cultural shame of that?
There's really no other way forward as I see it.
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rem74
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Post by rem74 on Aug 9, 2017 10:13:56 GMT -5
I'm thinking there probably won't be any kind of dodges she can use to squirrel away money (putting more money in her 401k, 529's, IRA's, etc.). Even if her DH doesn't currently look at her pay stubs, he's eventually going to want to look at them, or interrogate her about where the money is going. Especially when he goes to wire money to his relatives, and the bank account is all tapped out and he can't.
How involved is this guy in their financial life? Does he pay any of the bills? Does he/would he just nag her to go hit up her parents or siblings for money to pay their rent or car insurance, because he's already sent every cent of both of their money to Pakistan?
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Aug 9, 2017 12:08:01 GMT -5
I'd just listen and offer support. If she wants advice I'd suggest she consult with a counselor and an attorney specializing in international divorces because I'm not qualified to offer that sort of guidance. If she really suspects she's being used for a green card, I'd recommend she consult an attorney ASAP just so she knows her options.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 9, 2017 21:39:23 GMT -5
The fact that she may be being used for a green card, and the fact that he is sending so much $$ home, make me wonder if he wasn't married already in India and has a second family in India. Could the sister really be Wife #1, and the nieces & nephews he is supporting be his own kids?
So he stays maried for however long he has to be married to become a citizen, then divorces the American wife, marries the first wife in the US, then applies for green cards fir everyone in the family (in India) and gets them legal residency in the US?
That said I think DD's "Indian" friend is from Pakistan. The most elaborate wedding we ever went to was her Uncle's Wedding. The served food when we got there, Bride & Groom arrived around 9, cake served family feeds cake to bride and groom, then they serve huge full meal to everyone. We were at a Sikh Wedding, but Muslims snd Hindus were also in attendance. The lady that does my eye brows is Hindu, and she is Divorced. Her family is in India, I don't think they know she is divorced b.c she said it is very unacceptable.
I suggest Depo Shots in the meantime.
Falling asleep, sorry, I will try to follow up tomorrow.
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rem74
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Post by rem74 on Aug 10, 2017 8:50:21 GMT -5
Do you think that you could advise the wife to take "Financial Peace University" with her husband? If he wrote the numbers out on a spreadsheet with her, maybe cold hard reality would wake him up to the fact that even if he & the wife only eat beans & rice, and buy all their clothing out of thrift stores, and drive beater cars, they can't realistically support 11 or more people.
There's duty (his feeling of obligation) but then there's mathematical reality, which they seem to be running up against when they can't even pay their rent.
Is she (the wife) willing to let the husband drive for Uber or Lyft for hours each night, to make extra money to send to Pakistan?
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Annie7
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Post by Annie7 on Aug 10, 2017 10:53:26 GMT -5
Does she have extended family back in Pakistan? Would their lives become unbearable if she divorces? Are there other marriageable girls in Pakistan who would carry the stigma of her divorce and thus have problems getting married?
Western women don't have the above concerns since it's mainly nuclear family centered here. What you do doesn't affect your extended family. However, in Eastern cultures, that's not true. Especially for a girl. A girl carries the burden of all these concerns.
I'm not saying she should stay married to him. Things need to change and she needs to look out for herself since no one else is. What I'm saying is that it's not just a simple decision for her. She needs even more courage than an average Western woman to go against all these expectations/burdens.
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Aug 10, 2017 14:12:23 GMT -5
I'd like to think that if I ever found myself in such a situation, I would be able to pull up my big girl panties and level with my older brothers on the state of my marriage and turn them into allies for getting out of it. The older brothers are currently the ones paying to maintain this marriage and the amounts are almost certainly going to rise when the husband obtains his green card and no longer needs a spouse in order to earn a US salary. At that point, the kids will become extremely potent bargaining chips and he will be under extreme pressure from his family to send them back to Pakistan to be raised and free up more money for the rest of the family. Your friend needs to get a copy of her nikah and a translation if necessary. It is extremely likely that she has agreed to a token financial settlement if the marriage ends in divorce. There's no telling what else could be in there, so she needs to know it. You might want to show her this article. Not reading or understanding what is in the nikah is extremely common among highly educated Pakistani women. It's a point of honor among the bride's parents to waive meaningful divorce settlements and even the right to ask for a divorce. She should not be beating herself up too much for signing such a document. She just needs to know how bad it is in order to plan.
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Anne_in_VA
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Post by Anne_in_VA on Aug 11, 2017 10:56:01 GMT -5
Question - is a nikah enforceable in the US? If she didn't read it, I wonder if it would even be legal.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 11, 2017 11:37:04 GMT -5
Question - is a nikah enforceable in the US? If she didn't read it, I wonder if it would even be legal. If it's a written contract - unless the contract isn't in a form that's acceptable under US law or contains provisions that are illegal - there's no reason it wouldn't be legal in the US. And not bothering to read a contract is not necessarily grounds for having it ruled unenforceable. If you were just too dumb or lazy - too bad. The lawyer in the article, for example, who didn't read her nikah would have very little defense IMO. On the other hand, if you could demonstrate coercion (and in pre-nups, it's sometimes found to be coercive if a fiance brings up a prenup the night before a huge wedding for example) there would be a case for getting it tossed.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 11, 2017 12:13:15 GMT -5
Sorry have not updated in awhile because I've been busy and got my own issues going on my personal life (but that is not this thread).
My friend called yesterday and we talked for a bit, she was having a bad day yesterday.
She went to the doctor and they told her she has 5 more weeks while she feels she won't be able to last 5 days.
Anyway her say started off bad because her mom came over to watch the kids so she can go to the Dr's and while her mom was there her husband told her that his mom called that morning and if she could send his mom $300 US
It pisses her off because he does that often, ask her those things when they have her family over this way she cannot argue about it. She was still going to say something and she said her mom made the gesture to shut the hell up, like you know zip your mouth, key it and throw the key in the trash gesture I guess.
Instead her mom ask him: is everything paid this month: rent, bills. Etc? Do you guys have the $300 or you want us to send it. He said he has the $300 on his account all she has to do is go to the bank and get it to send. Oh they might be a car insurance bill coming soon, if his MIL would not Mind paying it... MIL said no problem.
I just cracked up like crazy and I think it made her more sad... I was like why do your parents keep giving this fool money? You guys are in AMERICA!!!
She said: our parents culture follows us wherever we go! I don't feel like it is my culture much but if I want to be part of my family I have no choice.
Her parents biggest fear is a divorced daughter, that is a stain/shame on the family that can never be removed. She said no matter what the cause of the divorce it will always be seen in her culture as it being her fault, it is her fault she could not keep a husband, it is her fault that he left her.
I said but what are you going to do? His sisters are already telling him to leave you once he has his citizenship. She said exactly and I told my parents that: what do you want me to do? Tie myself to me? I cannot keep him or Force him to stay if he wants to leave?
I said maybe your parents instead of giving him that money each month or every time he asked should put it in a separate bank account for you when he leaves.
She said been there already asked that. It seems there is this block that divorce is just not an option; She might as well die. So it is such not an option that they don't want to consider the possibilities if it does happen because in their mind: it should not, it is the worst thing ever.
Honestly I am not sure how traditional her brothers are or how close she is to them but I don't get a sense she will ever be able to divorce this man unless:
A) she initiates it and basically moves away/cut all ties with her family / cut all ties with her community and start over fresh. And that is a lot to ask, with 3 kids.
B) wait till he does it and she can at least tell her parents: I have tried everything it was not meant to be. They can adjust and try to live with the shame of a divorced daughter...
Have more to post got to go. Heading to Richmond VA to see my new little cousin (2.5 hours drive).
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countrygirl2
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Post by countrygirl2 on Aug 17, 2017 8:57:13 GMT -5
I would get the kids bigger, into school, make sure my job skills were good and the loser. She is just going to get poorer and poorer as his family grows.
What a mess, feel sorry for her. And her parents got her into this mess knowing the traditions.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 17, 2017 11:29:31 GMT -5
I am SHOCKED.......white people and others on here wanting to impose THEIR culture and values on a person of color from a different culture and society. This thread is the perfect example of the fluid and schizoid thinking of many on these sorts of issues. It is just fine to impose WESTERN values and culture on a person from a different culture and society as long as those values and culture being imposed are those of the person doing the posting. I MEAN AFTER ALL....we have to value the culture of others.....diversity is good.....WESTERN culture and values are bad.....white privilege is bad.....etc, etc, etc. This is exactly where we are headed in this country and the FORMER English heritage countries and in Western Europe. Culture matters. Without our historical culture and social values this country, the USA, would not exist. Our capitalistic system WOULD NOT EXIST. UNFORTUNATELY the feel good PC multicultural, thinking that permeates the current news media, colleges, the DEM party, and is working its way into every aspect of our society will ultimately destroy our culture and society. A country, government, economic system, culture and society do not operate in a vacuum. People are sadly wrong and foolish if they think our democratic system and capitalistic system will survive a change in CULTURE. In my opinion the demographic time bomb is in place and irreversible, in this country and in the EU. Whatever this country, the USA, will look like in terms of social values, form of government, culture, business system, in the future is up for grabs. One thing is sure it will be very different than it has been for the past 200 years. Some will welcome this, some will not......but that is irrelevant.......the demographic data shows that regardless.....the culture and social values in this country that have been dominant for the past 100 years will NO LONGER EXIST. Lets say for the sake of argument that the dominant culture in the USA over the next 50 years becomes that of Mexico, Central and South America. Guess what, the culture and social values of the country will mirror those countries. In the EU if the dominant culture becomes Muslim over the next 50 years, guess what the culture and social values of those countries will become? DISCLOSURE: I really dont care. My discussion in this thread is purely CLINICAL. AS I SAID, I think the demographics are now set in stone. I can see facts, in most schools districts and especially in the elementary grades the majority of kids, in my state, and probably many others is 85-95% Hispanic. At my age, I will continue to live the remainder of my life.....relatively....as usual. For those being born right now, the culture, social values, economic system and probably the form of government and rights allowed to people will be very different from now. I am not making a judgement if this is good or bad, since I really dont care and will not be alive at that time. I do think it is interesting to watch examples of CULTURAL SUICIDE occurring around the world at the moment. BUT, if you look at history, the replacement of culture and values is an age old occurrence throughout human history. I do find it interesting that people always seem to think that introducing cultural change is going to be a GOOD THING. When actually, history tells us that the end result is usually NOT A GOOD THING. (at least for freedom and democracy) AND....YES....this is my only post on this topic. I will not reply to the inevitable arguments that will follow since....I REALLY DONT CARE.well you cared enough to write a freaking book on it...
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 17, 2017 12:02:00 GMT -5
CAWIAU, is she Muslim or Sikh or something else?
I meant to show your thread to my DD's Sikh friend on vacay but I lost my nerve. We did talk a little bit about her family situation though, and it is very similar to what you describe your friend being in, with one difference. He Mother's family has been in the US for two generations? She said her Mother came here as a child, her father is a deadbeat. Her brother who is in his early 20's is also a deadbeat (I have heard drug addict and alcoholic both). She said her 12 year old brother is headed the way of the older brother. She wants to be a Doctor. Her Mother works all the time, her Mother's brother's help pay their bills. But I was surprised to learn that her Mother's family hates her Dad and repeatedly ask her Mother to divorce her husband. Her Mother has refused, b/c she said her Mother says he will be nothing without her. I think one of her Mother's brother's is a Dr, the other a Veterinarian and her sister is a CPA.
I don't think you can sign away your right to child support in the US. In Wisconsin there are Marital Property rights, and even if you sign away your rights in advance, the law changes the agreement for the house you live in and possibly even a vacation home. She should talk to an attorney just to clarify what might happen if she gets divorced. I have also read articles maybe (here?) advising people who know they are going to get divorced to move to the state within the US that would give them the most favorable divorce settlement...so, all the more reason to consult with an attorney.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Aug 17, 2017 12:44:51 GMT -5
She knows all this but has chosen her path.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 17, 2017 13:37:56 GMT -5
Hmmmm, to be fair, the person most rejecting a different culture is Carl's friend.
I don't think the folks posting on this thread are unilaterally and uninvitedly telling this woman her cultural norms are outdated and sexist and taking advantage of her hard work.
She's saying it first, to Carl, and we are simply agreeing with HER feelings.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 17, 2017 14:23:51 GMT -5
don't use logic. that's just spin, dontcha know....
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Aug 17, 2017 14:28:00 GMT -5
Hmmmm, to be fair, the person most rejecting a different culture is Carl's friend. I don't think the folks posting on this thread are unilaterally and uninvitedly telling this woman her cultural norms are outdated and sexist and taking advantage of her hard work. She's saying it first, to Carl, and we are simply agreeing with HER feelings. know your place and hush up! Uh, women wanting to be an equal in relationships - OMG! Things were so much better back in the day when women were just property!
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Aug 17, 2017 17:07:37 GMT -5
Hmmmm, to be fair, the person most rejecting a different culture is Carl's friend. I don't think the folks posting on this thread are unilaterally and uninvitedly telling this woman her cultural norms are outdated and sexist and taking advantage of her hard work. She's saying it first, to Carl, and we are simply agreeing with HER feelings. know your place and hush up! Uh, women wanting to be an equal in relationships - OMG! Things were so much better back in the day when women were just property! I'm a misogynist's worst nightmare: a confident card-carrying uppity woman. 😂
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 17, 2017 17:16:50 GMT -5
A few years ago when I was browsing the bargain book table at the local book store, they had a stack of the most awesome books titled something like "Uppity Women"; the book showcased interesting women throughout history. I bought the entire stack and gave them as gifts to all my uppity friends.
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bean29
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Post by bean29 on Aug 17, 2017 17:44:01 GMT -5
I am by no means anti-Muslim or anti any other religion, but I do believe in the concept of no-fault divorce. You can not make someone be a good and faithful spouse. There is nothing you can do to make your Marriage "Work" if the only one working at it is you.
When we went to said friend's Uncle's wedding, we sat with a very nice Muslim family. Parents were very much in love. Dad worked for a large corporation in Milwaukee in HR, and was relocating out east. Mom was going too-their DD, a friend of the girls' was staying in Milwaukee to attend school.
My Niece had a college roommate from Bangladesh? I don't remember for sure, but she came to the Midwest for school. Family was from a country where everyone is Muslim b/c it is not ok to be anything else. That girl's family told her to find a non-Muslim boy to get married to. (I don't know what happened).
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Aug 17, 2017 21:24:53 GMT -5
I am SHOCKED.......white people and others on here wanting to impose THEIR culture and values on a person of color from a different culture and society. This thread is the perfect example of the fluid and schizoid thinking of many on these sorts of issues. It is just fine to impose WESTERN values and culture on a person from a different culture and society as long as those values and culture being imposed are those of the person doing the posting. I MEAN AFTER ALL....we have to value the culture of others.....diversity is good.....WESTERN culture and values are bad.....white privilege is bad.....etc, etc, etc. This is exactly where we are headed in this country and the FORMER English heritage countries and in Western Europe. Culture matters. Without our historical culture and social values this country, the USA, would not exist. Our capitalistic system WOULD NOT EXIST. UNFORTUNATELY the feel good PC multicultural, thinking that permeates the current news media, colleges, the DEM party, and is working its way into every aspect of our society will ultimately destroy our culture and society. A country, government, economic system, culture and society do not operate in a vacuum. People are sadly wrong and foolish if they think our democratic system and capitalistic system will survive a change in CULTURE. In my opinion the demographic time bomb is in place and irreversible, in this country and in the EU. Whatever this country, the USA, will look like in terms of social values, form of government, culture, business system, in the future is up for grabs. One thing is sure it will be very different than it has been for the past 200 years. Some will welcome this, some will not......but that is irrelevant.......the demographic data shows that regardless.....the culture and social values in this country that have been dominant for the past 100 years will NO LONGER EXIST. Lets say for the sake of argument that the dominant culture in the USA over the next 50 years becomes that of Mexico, Central and South America. Guess what, the culture and social values of the country will mirror those countries. In the EU if the dominant culture becomes Muslim over the next 50 years, guess what the culture and social values of those countries will become? DISCLOSURE: I really dont care. My discussion in this thread is purely CLINICAL. AS I SAID, I think the demographics are now set in stone. I can see facts, in most schools districts and especially in the elementary grades the majority of kids, in my state, and probably many others is 85-95% Hispanic. At my age, I will continue to live the remainder of my life.....relatively....as usual. For those being born right now, the culture, social values, economic system and probably the form of government and rights allowed to people will be very different from now. I am not making a judgement if this is good or bad, since I really dont care and will not be alive at that time. I do think it is interesting to watch examples of CULTURAL SUICIDE occurring around the world at the moment. BUT, if you look at history, the replacement of culture and values is an age old occurrence throughout human history. I do find it interesting that people always seem to think that introducing cultural change is going to be a GOOD THING. When actually, history tells us that the end result is usually NOT A GOOD THING. (at least for freedom and democracy) AND....YES....this is my only post on this topic. I will not reply to the inevitable arguments that will follow since....I REALLY DONT CARE.well you cared enough to write a freaking book on it... he is just looking for excuses to insult people and then run away The old phrase - can dish it out but can't take it comes to mind.... perhaps fear that his assertions can't hold up to scrutiny and debate.
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