Case study : what would you do?

[tskeeter]

Aug 7, 2017 14:23:08 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Oh and her husband is the only son out of 11 kids... the reason for the 27k (paying for wedding for all the sisters).

And that brought another little family drama where they were saying she is against her sisters in law getting married.

She said she is not against it but what is the point of them getting married if they don't go live with their husbands instead stay with their parents and popping kids / more mouth for "her" husband to feed when they have their own husbands.

Sounds a bit like the stories DW's aunt tells about DW's grandfather.  He emigrated to the US.  His sister stayed in Serbia.  The siblings apparently believed the streets paved with gold stories.  Always writing and wanting him to send things they wanted, that he was expected to pay for.  Note that I wrote wanted, not needed.  And they always wanted the best.  If they wanted a watch, it wasn't a Timex, they wanted a specific model Rolex.  Finally, he had to cut off communication with his family to terminate the unending stream of demands from Serbia.

[giramomma]

I'd advise your friend to see a lawyer. One that specializes in these sorts of situations.

Divorce may not be in her best interest, if she likes seeing her kids. But, legal separation maybe a real option for her.

I don't know how to address the cultural issues. A therapist..maybe. That's a hard one.

I had a friend that was Indian. She was first born, and it was assumed that she would marry an Indian her parents approved of. I guess she didn't have to go through an arranged marriage with someone from India. That option was on the table, and she said no.

When my friend was 25 and unmarried, my friend's parents did take it upon themselves to take out ads in papers to find a suitable husband for her.

Her sister was 2nd born, and interestingly enough didn't need to adhere to the same cultural norms.

[Lizard Queen]

How frustrating for you to be privy to such a situation.  I don't know how you can help, other than offering a sympathetic ear.  

There are often lessons to be learned for ourselves in these situations, though.  Try to put yourself in this guys shoes.  In what ways are you similar?  How do you come up with the line where you stop helping family and take care of your own?  A lesson for me personally: my mother would have loved if I had married someone from her homeland.  I never wanted to, and this kind of culture clash is a big reason why--and the culture difference I'm talking about is nowhere as extreme as what your friend is experiencing.

[dannylion]

What would I do? If I were you, Carl, I would run away and hide. No advice you can offer will alter her circumstances.  Expecting the husband to evolve or even experience any form of epiphany is to believe in fantasy.  She is going to be trapped until she is willing and able to extract herself from that cultural straightjacket.

If I were the friend, I would also run away and hide.  I cannot imagine tolerating even a small measure of that kind of life.

[Miss Tequila]

I just can't even imagine. I seriously can't. Since I don't give a shit if I brought shame to my family when I ended my bad divorce (I didn't...no one really like him!lol) I can't understand letting that be a factor. She was born and raised here. She needs to be strong and do what is best for her and her children. And to me, that means dumping that asshole like yesterday's garbagw

[dannylion]

I cannot comprehend a woman's family being so concerned with appearances that they would subject their daughter to that kind of marriage in the first place and then continue to shame and guilt her into staying in that nightmare, all apparently simply to save face.

[thyme4change]

I agree that she should prepare for divorce, even if she plans not to leave. He clearly is cuckold by his family and if they are suggesting he bail out - he probably will.

She should get a job and make sure she can support herself.

She should squirrel away some money, not tell her parents or her husband. That money should be used for a lawyer the minute he brings it up.

She should study up on divorce law and child support so she is ready.

I know there will be shame, but if he walks, the shame will still be there. She needs to start preparing her parents. They picked this jerk. He will shame the family and there isn't much they can do about it.

[justme]

I would, in case a divorce starts to happen, I would suggest that she make the custody agreement as strict as possible regarding leaving the country. Not sure if she can, but I'd try to make it so they can't even get passports for the kids.

[zibazinski]

Especially because they're boys. DS's girlfriend and her sister were left behind in this country because they were female.

[milee]

Aug 7, 2017 19:50:18 GMT -5 justme said:

I would, in case a divorce starts to happen, I would suggest that she make the custody agreement as strict as possible regarding leaving the country. Not sure if she can, but I'd try to make it so they can't even get passports for the kids.

This is a really sticky subject for those of us married to a spouse with dual citizenship.  The laws vary by state and they sometimes change, but when I discussed this issue with a divorce attorney in Arizona years ago, he explained these things and offered this advice based on Arizona law:

-  Until a custody arrangement is finalized and approved by the court, each parent individually has full rights to their children.  It can take years to get a finalized custody agreement, even if the two parties agree on terms and work together, so it could be a long time before there is a court order which would prevent a spouse from taking children out of the country.  

-  In the case described in the OP, absent a court approved custody agreement, the father would have the ability to take the kids "on vacation" and just not return.  This is not uncommon in international divorces.  The problem is that even if the wife is later granted full custody by US courts, it is incredibly difficult to get kids back from other countries, even countries where we have good diplomatic relationships.  Forget about getting kids back from a country where there aren't strong diplomatic relationships or where the prevailing religion - like Islam - does not recognize the rights of women.  

-  Things can get even more complicated if the country the father is a citizen of grants citizenship quickly and easily to children born abroad.  In other words, if Pakistan's citizenship rules mean that the father can quickly and easily get Pakistani citizenship for his children, you have even fewer chances of getting them back since Pakistan will view them as Pakistan citizens, not US citizens.

-  Ironically, one of the ways that you can slow down a spouse taking their kids out of the country is to go ahead and get those kids US passports and keep iron control of them.  If you have passports for the kids and keep them locked in a safe deposit box at a bank where only you and not your spouse has an account and of course only you have access to that box, that's one way to handle it and what the attorney recommended, but I doubt the woman in the OP would do this.  Again, though, depending on how easily the father could get Pakistani passports for the kids, keeping physical control of the passports could be moot.

[justme]

Aug 7, 2017 20:12:03 GMT -5 milee said:

Aug 7, 2017 19:50:18 GMT -5 justme said:

I would, in case a divorce starts to happen, I would suggest that she make the custody agreement as strict as possible regarding leaving the country. Not sure if she can, but I'd try to make it so they can't even get passports for the kids.

This is a really sticky subject for those of us married to a spouse with dual citizenship.  The laws vary by state and they sometimes change, but when I discussed this issue with a divorce attorney in Arizona years ago, he explained these things and offered this advice based on Arizona law:

-  Until a custody arrangement is finalized and approved by the court, each parent individually has full rights to their children.  It can take years to get a finalized custody agreement, even if the two parties agree on terms and work together, so it could be a long time before there is a court order which would prevent a spouse from taking children out of the country.  

-  In the case described in the OP, absent a court approved custody agreement, the father would have the ability to take the kids "on vacation" and just not return.  This is not uncommon in international divorces.  The problem is that even if the wife is later granted full custody by US courts, it is incredibly difficult to get kids back from other countries, even countries where we have good diplomatic relationships.  Forget about getting kids back from a country where there aren't strong diplomatic relationships or where the prevailing religion - like Islam - does not recognize the rights of women.  

-  Things can get even more complicated if the country the father is a citizen of grants citizenship quickly and easily to children born abroad.  In other words, if Pakistan's citizenship rules mean that the father can quickly and easily get Pakistani citizenship for his children, you have even fewer chances of getting them back since Pakistan will view them as Pakistan citizens, not US citizens.

-  Ironically, one of the ways that you can slow down a spouse taking their kids out of the country is to go ahead and get those kids US passports and keep iron control of them.  If you have passports for the kids and keep them locked in a safe deposit box at a bank where only you and not your spouse has an account and of course only you have access to that box, that's one way to handle it and what the attorney recommended, but I doubt the woman in the OP would do this.  Again, though, depending on how easily the father could get Pakistani passports for the kids, keeping physical control of the passports could be moot.

I was wondering, but wasn't assure whether it'd be better to get the passports and then keep him away.

[zibazinski]

She is seriously screwed.

[zibazinski]

Her family did a piss poor job of "vetting " his family. Usually arranged marriages have similar financial background as well as education. Seems his criteria was that he was a man from the old country.

[gs11rmb]

Although it should be a concern that the husband could take the children back to Pakistan, I'm not sure it's actually a serious threat.  He doesn't appear to have any financial resources in that country and his family is dependent on him staying in the USA to send back money.

[TheHaitian]

Aug 8, 2017 7:09:12 GMT -5 gs11rmb said:

Although it should be a concern that the husband could take the children back to Pakistan, I'm not sure it's actually a serious threat.  He doesn't appear to have any financial resources in that country and his family is dependent on him staying in the USA to send back money.

I think this is a good point! He is his family only source of income and it is not like life will be better for him back home.

[Deleted]

Have they taken the kids out of the country already?  If they don't already have passports he can't get them on his own, she would have to be present and agree when they apply.  Once they have them though, they are pretty much impossible to get revoked and would be good for 5 years. 

[TheHaitian]

As for the why they pick him when her family seems to be doing better, I have no proof of that but I think it is similar for my friend that is Indian.

You are born into a caste (social class) and let's say it is the lower one. No matter how rich you get down the road, you still belong to that caste and you cannot move up (it is hereditary or something).

Ex: another old friend of ours, we have not spoken in like 9 years... but when we use to hang out she has been dating her boyfriend for a year (both Indian); and while her parents/family were progressive somewhat she knew they would never allow her to marry her boyfriend because back home in India he belonged to a lower class/caste than they did.

So I am thinking it is the same, while in America her family might be doing better, when she goes back home the rest of her family there belongs in the same social class as the man family thus that is how they found her a husband ; within the same social class.

[TheHaitian]

Aug 8, 2017 8:06:47 GMT -5 minnesotapaintlady said:

Have they taken the kids out of the country already?  If they don't already have passports he can't get them on his own, she would have to be present and agree when they apply.  Once they have them though, they are pretty much impossible to get revoked and would be good for 5 years. 

No they haven't taken the kids out of the country, they haven't even gone to his sisters wedding back home due to cost. Was better to just send money since that is what they wanted anyway.

[resolution]

Hopefully if they get too dependent on her parents, that they leave their assets in a trust that parcels things out annually. Because if they pass away and leave her a lump sum, the whole lump sum will probably end up with his family, and she will be destitute.

[Lizard Queen]

Well, if he keeps giving away the rent money, she could take the kids and move back in with her parents, and let him fend for himself.

[justme]

You'd think his family had income of some kind before he moved to the US to marry her, otherwise her parents are jerks that picked a destitute guy for her to marry. Though I guess it's possible he was supporting them all back then too and her parents didn't notice or care.


Repeating my motto...there are worse things than being single.

[thyme4change]

Aug 8, 2017 8:07:31 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

As for the why they pick him when her family seems to be doing better, I have no proof of that but I think it is similar for my friend that is Indian.

You are born into a caste (social class) and let's say it is the lower one. No matter how rich you get down the road, you still belong to that caste and you cannot move up (it is hereditary or something).

Ex: another old friend of ours, we have not spoken in like 9 years... but when we use to hang out she has been dating her boyfriend for a year (both Indian); and while her parents/family were progressive somewhat she knew they would never allow her to marry her boyfriend because back home in India he belonged to a lower class/caste than they did.

So I am thinking it is the same, while in America her family might be doing better, when she goes back home the rest of her family there belongs in the same social class as the man family thus that is how they found her a husband ; within the same social class.

Same as race here. Plenty of families would rather see their daughter marry a poor white man than a middle class black guy.

[haapai]

Carl, is your friend an only child? 

ETA:  Never mind.  Now I see the bit about her older brothers.   Can I change my question to the particulars of her living arrangement?  Is she (and her husband and kids) living with her parents or in a separate home? 

FWIW, I had a lot invested in the theory that she was an only child.  It would go a long ways toward explaining how she got into this dreadful marriage and could have been used to enlist the parents' help in getting out of it while holding onto the kids/grandkids.

[zibazinski]

Aug 8, 2017 8:38:52 GMT -5 justme said:

You'd think his family had income of some kind before he moved to the US to marry her, otherwise her parents are jerks that picked a destitute guy for her to marry. Though I guess it's possible he was supporting them all back then too and her parents didn't notice or care.


Repeating my motto...there are worse things than being single.

Yes, having no education and breeding like a rabbit with someone who didn't just "suddenly" start being a selfish sob. She needs to stop having children after this one and talk to her parents about putting some money aside for her so that when she can finally escape, she has some money and can get some kind of education and a job skill. 

[Deleted]

Aug 8, 2017 10:22:52 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Aug 8, 2017 8:38:52 GMT -5 justme said:

You'd think his family had income of some kind before he moved to the US to marry her, otherwise her parents are jerks that picked a destitute guy for her to marry. Though I guess it's possible he was supporting them all back then too and her parents didn't notice or care.


Repeating my motto...there are worse things than being single.

Yes, having no education and breeding like a rabbit with someone who didn't just "suddenly" start being a selfish sob. She needs to stop having children after this one and talk to her parents about putting some money aside for her so that when she can finally escape, she has some money and can get some kind of education and a job skill. 

She went to college with Carl, so that's why I'm wondering if she already has a job now.  I don't think he's answered that question yet. 

[haapai]

Aug 7, 2017 19:02:49 GMT -5 dannylion said:

I cannot comprehend a woman's family being so concerned with appearances that they would subject their daughter to that kind of marriage in the first place and then continue to shame and guilt her into staying in that nightmare, all apparently simply to save face.

It might not be about face at this point.  If the daughter is an only child, these are the only grandchildren that the parents are likely to have.  They are bargaining chips and they can be used to suck the grandparents dry. 

It's also not entirely clear how much Carl's friend has confided in her own family.  She needs to lay out the situation to them.  The worst case scenario here is him taking the kids from her permanently after sucking everything that he can out of his wife's family. 

[cronewitch]

If I were her I would stop talking to parents about money. Allow her husband to be head of household. If he won't pay rent let them be evicted or he needs to beg her parents for rent money not make her ask. He won't like being homeless and wife and kids move in with her parents. If she works she should reduce her take home pay, max 401K, direct deposit a percentage to savings he doesn't have access to, etc. Let him take care of bills like car payments and rent so he can't support his birth family without pain.

[TheHaitian]

Yes she does work but due to the complications with this pregnancy she is on a very part time basis like 2 days a week.

The only reason she is not on bed rest is because the Dr said getting to work is the only exercise she gets (but her feet are really swollen and she drags her feet) and if he put her on bed rest he is worried she will never get out of bed.

And guess what: she works in accounting! More reason this is driving her NUTS!

[mmhmm]

Aug 8, 2017 12:06:24 GMT -5 TheHaitian said:

Yes she does work but due to the complications with this pregnancy she is on a very part time basis like 2 days a week.

The only reason she is not on bed rest is because the Dr said getting to work is the only exercise she gets (but her feet are really swollen and she drags her feet) and if he put her on bed rest he is worried she will never get out of bed.

And guess what: she works in accounting! More reason this is driving her NUTS!

Interesting. He's very traditional (Pakistani-style) until it comes to her working and bringing in money. Then, all of a sudden, tradition goes out the window. Since she's a wage-earner, part of that money being sent to his family is, technically, her money -  she earned it. I can certainly understand her consternation.

Still, this isn't something anyone else can solve for her. She needs to use this time to figure out what she wants for her future and start working toward that as soon as she's able to do so. If she doesn't want to live the rest of her life in thrall to this man and his family, she's going to have to take a stand. Otherwise, she's going to have to settle for what she has and make the best she can of it. That's probably what I'd tell her.

[zibazinski]

Well, she has a job skill thankfully. If her parents can help by either providing daycare or continue paying rent for her, she can get the hell out. Hopefully she's no longer in love with this loser. Unfortunately if he doesn't return to his own country, she's going to have to share custody. If he can't support his kids and his family and himself on his own income, that's karma.