TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 13:34:00 GMT -5
When commenting please understand and respect the traditions that seems to dictate this relationship/marriage.
Ok my friend just unloaded on me and while nothing I said will ever come true for her (till the day she has enough I guess), I figure the board can dissect this.
She is Pakistani and so is her husband. Her parents went back home to Pakistan to find her a good husband, they got married and now the guy is in the US with them.
Background: he is one of 11 kids plus his parents. His wife (my friend) is currently pregnant with baby boy #3.
At the beginning of the marriage 4 years ago she agreed with him that they could send his family $600-$700/month; which was not an issue at the beginning (no kids). Then baby boy #1 came followed shortly by baby boy # 2 and now she is 34 weeks pregnant with baby boy # 3 (3 kids under 4).
So as her family got bigger, the demands from his family got bigger (because his sisters/siblings are getting married, having kids and no one is working) to the point that now they are sending his family about $1,500-$1,700/month...
He does not accept that his wife and kids come first, actually said to my friend that his kids come last vs his family back home... and this is stressing her out and causing complications with this pregnancy.
The only reason he can afford this is because for the past 6 months her parents and her older brothers has been paying their rent and she is fed up with it. Basically every time she gets upset because they don't have enough money (he sent it home) her parents or older siblings run to the rescue and say: don't worry about it, we will take care of it! And they go and pay her rent...
She feels that should be embarrassing to her husband but it is not; that they are working and yet her parents and older brothers are paying her rent. When she complains to her parent they tell her to stop worrying because to them her breaking the marriage would be the worst of the worst... when she threaten to do that is was a big issue.
And the reason she did is she walked in on her husband talking to his sister back home and the sister told the husband: if she is stressing you about not sending us money, if I were you I would wait till you get your citizenship and I would leave her. Her husband did not say a word to defend her...
A few details: - back home his parents and siblings have taken out 27k in personal loans under their names: -----> how she explains it, their family can go to Family X and ask for 3k and say their son is good for it. go to family y state the same, rinse repeat. ----> so they don't owe a bank, they just owe other families.
- a few months back they stop sending their older son to some activities/school because they could not afford it. They are back to sending him 4 months later again because her parents/siblings keep jumping in and paying their rent.
- they make enough to cover all their bills and savings IF he stops sending so much money back home. She is ok with helping but not at the extinct they are now: she feels he is putting their well being above hers and the kids.
- she is losing sleep over it, stressed and not sure what to do. Because the way she was raised she cannot vent or talk to her husband the way she vents/talks to me and another one of our friends (we went to college together).
- she is ready to call it quits on the marriage but that is a big black mark/shame on the family.
- it has been 8 months since they have been out as a couple, been out with the kids because they keep on cutting corners to send his family money. But she is running out of corners to cut and said: how the your family in Pakistan has so much power over our budget here?
Besides the finances and him not making his nuclear family a priority the marriage seems good.
I think she is just fed up and as she sees it; there seems to be no end in sight. If the sister that she sponsored her son to come to the US can dare say that to her husband, they are no longer asking for help: they feel entitled to it.
How about her kids?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Aug 7, 2017 13:44:53 GMT -5
Huge cultural clash between families and expectations.
I thought the point of the arranged marriages was that these were families that were "equally matched".
What are your friend's options? Is she employed? Employable? She's going to be in a tough spot looking for a job to support herself and three kids if husband doesn't have permanent work visa.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 13:45:41 GMT -5
There's just no way I could live like this, my kids come before any other family member...especially adults that should be taking care of themselves. My advice would be, the courts will not take supporting his family back in Pakistan into account when setting the child support order.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 7, 2017 13:53:07 GMT -5
Sorry, but this made me laugh. I would say those two things are enough to create a very toxic marriage, even if everything else is perfect...
If she's not going to divorce him, I'd say keep letting her parents supplement the family budget. They're the ones (sort of) who got her into this. Other than that, not much that can be done.
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resolution
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Post by resolution on Aug 7, 2017 13:56:10 GMT -5
I don't think there is really anything you can do for her other than letting her know that she has your friendship, and that you will be there as a friend if she ever decides to leave. You can always offer to look for a good attorney for her if she wants to quietly consult with one, but it doesn't sound like she is ready to leave at this point.
Make sure she knows that you and your family will be there for emotional support if she leaves him, so she won't be totally alone and without friends.
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Sharon
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Post by Sharon on Aug 7, 2017 13:57:52 GMT -5
Would the dishonor that a divorce would bring her family possibly endanger her life?
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 7, 2017 13:59:39 GMT -5
It's shockingly not that uncommon in a lot of cultures that it is expected that the son take care of his extended family.
Is she from here? If she is then this is a clash of cultures. She is Americanized and he is not. His parents/siblings ARE his "nuclear" family. It's an American thing that only your wife and children are considered your "nuclear" family.
He is not interested in adopting the American system, if he was he would not be sending $2k a month "back home". He's not going to change anymore than she's going to change.
Her choices are divorce or figure out how to live with it. I would not count on child support either, just because the piece of paper says he has to pay doesn't mean every penny won't be sent "back home" instead.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 14:09:03 GMT -5
Is she from here? If she is then this is a clash of cultures. She is Americanized and he is not. His parents/siblings ARE his "nuclear" family. It's an American thing that only your wife and children are considered your "nuclear" family. Basically this I think at the end of the day, she was born and raised here while he came here after they got married 4 years ago. And that would also explain his statement how his kids/wife will come after his family back home which she disagrees with. Ex: she complains how his parents or siblings will spend hours on the phone with him while she is home (cooking, taking care of the kids) and not once they will ask how is she doing or ask to talk to her. The last big fight was over her blocking his sister number on Snapchat after walking in on that conversation. She said she doesn't know how the sister figure it out but she did and told her husband that his wife blocked her on his phone. When he was angry about it she told him: your sister is causing me stress and discord in our marriage, so to cause me less stress I blocked her. Since you were doing nothing about it, I had to do something about it and that is nothing compared to what I could/should have done. While they are both Pakistani, you are right... it's like they are from 2 separate worlds.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 14:13:10 GMT -5
Would the dishonor that a divorce would bring her family possibly endanger her life? I doubt it, I think it is mostly shame. She said she talked about it with her mom recently saying how she does not need her husband, she has her kids, her parents and brothers and that is all she needs. Her mom was like: what will you do in 30-40 years when your kids are gone! You need your husband... So there are no threats of disowning her or anything like that; they just run and take care of the issue that is upsetting her hoping that will take care of the problem.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 7, 2017 14:18:50 GMT -5
Would the dishonor that a divorce would bring her family possibly endanger her life? you said she is Pakistani, but it sounded like she was born here. but if her parents are traditional enough to travel there to arrange a marriage, it is a valid question to consider.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 14:20:04 GMT -5
Her choices are divorce or figure out how to live with it. I would not count on child support either, just because the piece of paper says he has to pay doesn't mean every penny won't be sent "back home" instead. Garnishment. It's a wonderful thing.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Aug 7, 2017 14:20:04 GMT -5
I doubt the situation will be resolved anytime soon. I do think she needs to stop with baby number three.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 14:22:56 GMT -5
Would the dishonor that a divorce would bring her family possibly endanger her life? I doubt it, I think it is mostly shame. She said she talked about it with her mom recently saying how she does not need her husband, she has her kids, her parents and brothers and that is all she needs. Her mom was like: what will you do in 30-40 years when your kids are gone! You need your husband...
So there are no threats of disowning her or anything like that; they just run and take care of the issue that is upsetting her hoping that will take care of the problem. So, they think he needs to keep taking care of his parents, but her kids don't have to keep taking care of her? How does that generation get off?
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 14:23:08 GMT -5
Oh and her husband is the only son out of 11 kids... the reason for the 27k (paying for wedding for all the sisters).
And that brought another little family drama where they were saying she is against her sisters in law getting married.
She said she is not against it but what is the point of them getting married if they don't go live with their husbands instead stay with their parents and popping kids / more mouth for "her" husband to feed when they have their own husbands.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 7, 2017 14:23:27 GMT -5
I doubt the situation will be resolved anytime soon. I do think she needs to stop with baby number three. this is the worst clusterf**k of culture and money.
I feel for this poor woman. Unless she's willing to stand up to family (both sides) and do the Very American thing of making her children first, nothing will change. She needs courage (and support!) to tell Her World to take a flying leap and to do what she thinks is best. I doubt she has either one. Her World makes it very difficult to do that for a reason - they need her money
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 14:25:09 GMT -5
I doubt it, I think it is mostly shame. She said she talked about it with her mom recently saying how she does not need her husband, she has her kids, her parents and brothers and that is all she needs. Her mom was like: what will you do in 30-40 years when your kids are gone! You need your husband...
So there are no threats of disowning her or anything like that; they just run and take care of the issue that is upsetting her hoping that will take care of the problem. So, they think he needs to keep taking care of his parents, but her kids don't have to keep taking care of her? How does that generation get off? I think it is more about keeping the peace and making sure their daughter stays married. After all they are the ones that picked him for her.... so his bad "actions" reflects back on them. Like it is their fault she is in that situation.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2017 14:28:09 GMT -5
I don't see this as something anyone can really help her with. It's something she must decide for herself. As I see it, her parents made a huge mistake. This woman isn't Pakistani by anything other than heritage. She was born and raised here. She's an American. It's a shame she didn't refuse their intervention in her marriage decisions when the issue came up.
Does she work outside the home, or has she done so? If she decides on divorce, she'll have to have some way of making a living or getting an education so she can make a living (if she doesn't have a profession). Thing is, she's going to have to make a decision sooner or later. The situation, as it stands, isn't going to change and, while the courts can order child support and, possibly, alimony, there's nothing to be done to prevent him from running back to Pakistan to avoid his responsibilities here.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 14:28:45 GMT -5
So, they think he needs to keep taking care of his parents, but her kids don't have to keep taking care of her? How does that generation get off? I think it is more about keeping the peace and making sure their daughter stays married. After all they are the ones that picked him for her.... so his bad "actions" reflects back on them. Like it is their fault she is in that situation. So, it's not a Pakistani thing and her parents aren't for supporting the family back home? In that case, I guess I'd just let them keep bailing us out, but I still couldn't handle life like that. I'd rather be poor on my own and doing everything I can for my kids, than poor because I'm paying for all my SIL's weddings and what not.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 7, 2017 14:29:40 GMT -5
Oh and her husband is the only son out of 11 kids... the reason for the 27k (paying for wedding for all the sisters). And that brought another little family drama where they were saying she is against her sisters in law getting married. She said she is not against it but what is the point of them getting married if they don't go live with their husbands instead stay with their parents and popping kids / more mouth for "her" husband to feed when they have their own husbands. Isn't that what her parents are doing for her? While she does not live directly under their roof they are still supporting her. I understand that's not what she wants but it appears that she is the exception to the rule. It sounds like she is an Americanized Pakistani surrounded by traditionalists. She would have more luck moving a wall by pounding her forehead on it than she will ever have of convincing her family, husband and his family that things need to change.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Aug 7, 2017 14:31:41 GMT -5
So, they think he needs to keep taking care of his parents, but her kids don't have to keep taking care of her? How does that generation get off? I think it is more about keeping the peace and making sure their daughter stays married. After all they are the ones that picked him for her.... so his bad "actions" reflects back on them. Like it is their fault she is in that situation. It is their fault to a great degree. In that society, honoring one's parents' wishes is paramount. That's how she was raised, I'd wager. Now, she's paying for their refusal to recognize the inherent dangers of cultural clashes between a husband and wife raised in completely different societies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 14:33:45 GMT -5
Does she work?
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 7, 2017 14:35:33 GMT -5
So TheHaitian - what would I do? I'd listen empathetically, and then I'd ask her what she needs from me. If she just wants an ear, fine. If she is actively or passively seeking help, I'd try to help her connect to a competent therapist who understands her cultural issues. She's gonna need it . . .
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Knee Deep in Water Chloe
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Post by Knee Deep in Water Chloe on Aug 7, 2017 14:36:42 GMT -5
If it was me and I had agreed to an arranged marriage like that: If my parents said they were okay with paying for everything, I'd probably not do anything except raise my babies and focus on letting go of the anxiety of not having any money for myself. I'd also probably stop at the third child and then have a plan for going to work when that baby was in grade school.
(That's not what I'd do as my actual self.)
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Aug 7, 2017 14:49:10 GMT -5
If it was me and I had agreed to an arranged marriage like that: If my parents said they were okay with paying for everything, I'd probably not do anything except raise my babies and focus on letting go of the anxiety of not having any money for myself. I'd also probably stop at the third child and then have a plan for going to work when that baby was in grade school.
(That's not what I'd do as my actual self.) I actually find myself agreeing with this! If the cultural pressures around bailing out/divorce are untenable, I'd put my head down, raise the babies I have, STOP MAKING MORE BABIES, and begin some long-term planning for an exit - when the kids are in school and I've found a way to be self-supporting. Personally, IN THAT SITUATION with babies and young children, I would not bail immediately unless there was a deal-breaker of some kind (abuse, addiction, criminal activity). I'd be making longer-term plans for an exit. But that would just be me - if I were in that situation.
I also agree with Knee Deep in Water Chloe that me-myself-and-I as an American woman this is not what I would do. As an educated, working woman with the ability to have financial stability on my own, I would have one or more come-to-Jesus conversations with my spouse about finances and if we couldn't make it work, I would leave. But I totally *get it* that this woman's situation is *very* different.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Aug 7, 2017 15:04:32 GMT -5
I think it is more about keeping the peace and making sure their daughter stays married. After all they are the ones that picked him for her.... so his bad "actions" reflects back on them. Like it is their fault she is in that situation. It is their fault to a great degree. In that society, honoring one's parents' wishes is paramount. That's how she was raised, I'd wager. Now, she's paying for their refusal to recognize the inherent dangers of cultural clashes between a husband and wife raised in completely different societies. That is one of my main concern or the most irritating thing about her lol, and I love her as a friend. I told her something like: you should let him know that in America we have a little something called child support. Good luck to him sending that kind of money back home when he is paying child support for 3 kids? Her answer to me: do you think my parents would let me do that? I wanted to reach through the phone and shake her. Girl you are 32 (husband 35).... you do not need your parents approval/consent to divorce your husband. But I have to remember that is her culture and how she was raised. Ex: I remember we visited her at her house once and her dad walked in and she stood up. She stayed up till he sat down... we joked about it but she does it every time and how she was raised. Her dad walks in a room she stands up and does not seat till he seats down. If her dad seats on the sofa she will not dare seat on the sofa, she will seat on the carpet/floor.
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Shooby
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Post by Shooby on Aug 7, 2017 15:06:36 GMT -5
I am not sure what is to be done. He is going to continue doing this and she agreed up front. So, they have to downsize their lifestyle or maybe he can pick up an extra job or she can. Or, she can give him an ultimatum and walk out. Or, she can suggest a compromise of perhaps sending half the amount or anything in between. Of course, he will have to be amenable to that. If wishes to continue those are really her only options.
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copperboxes
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Post by copperboxes on Aug 7, 2017 15:07:46 GMT -5
From your first post:
From this I start to wonder, even if she does nothing, the husband might be the one to dissolve the marriage anyway?
I think if I were in her shoes, I might be bracing for divorce anyway, even if not actively planning. It seems like he might file, given the above advice from her husband's family and his response, plus:
I can only speak from my lense, but in her shoes I'd tell my family to stop bailing them out, given the above data.
I'd have the money put aside in an account for her and the kids instead, in case he leaves her. She and her husband seem like they need to sort matters out without financial band aids that confuse the situation and give him the ability to give away even more money that they don't have. If they work things out, her family can gift the money to them later or something?
Just thoughts. It's tough. I think it might not be a money thing though. I get the strong feeling the roots of this are priority clashes, and it might not be sortable. Sometimes people who seem like perfect fits on paper bring out the worst in each other, the way odd-fits can harmonize really well sometimes. Relationships are intricate in how they interplay. I wish them the best through this and hope they reach a consensus.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 7, 2017 15:13:38 GMT -5
I know I liked that comment, MPL, but can you please edit your choice of words so that I don't have to nuke the post? I absolutely agree with the sentiment.
please and thank you. -chiver mod
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2017 15:18:35 GMT -5
I nuked it myself. I couldn't think of any other way to say it that accurately summarized my thoughts.
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NomoreDramaQ1015
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Post by NomoreDramaQ1015 on Aug 7, 2017 15:22:36 GMT -5
It is their fault to a great degree. In that society, honoring one's parents' wishes is paramount. That's how she was raised, I'd wager. Now, she's paying for their refusal to recognize the inherent dangers of cultural clashes between a husband and wife raised in completely different societies. That is one of my main concern or the most irritating thing about her lol, and I love her as a friend. I told her something like: you should let him know that in America we have a little something called child support. Good luck to him sending that kind of money back home when he is paying child support for 3 kids? Her answer to me: do you think my parents would let me do that? I wanted to reach through the phone and shake her. Girl you are 32 (husband 35).... you do not need your parents approval/consent to divorce your husband. But I have to remember that is her culture and how she was raised. Ex: I remember we visited her at her house once and her dad walked in and she stood up. She stayed up till he sat down... we joked about it but she does it every time and how she was raised. Her dad walks in a room she stands up and does not seat till he seats down. If her dad seats on the sofa she will not dare seat on the sofa, she will seat on the carpet/floor. She's picking and choosing where to be traditional. Which has backfired on her big time in terms of her marriage. 20/20 hindsight she should not have agreed to an arranged marriage. It sounds like they picked a husband in light of how she presents herself to them, not how she really is. If this is how she behaves around the patriarch of her family they likely assumed she would do the same with her husband. The time to object was before the agreement was signed, not three kids down the road. He has made it clear he has no interest in her being an equal partner in the marriage and that's not going to change no matter how much she bitches. Either divorce or learn to play happy housewife, those are her options.
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