cktc
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Post by cktc on Jul 19, 2017 11:47:57 GMT -5
I started as an engineering major. I didn't find it very interesting, but I did find it dirty and smelly. I was also tired of being the only, or one of a few, females in classes full of nerdy types. I was also discouraged a bit, as if I couldn't keep up. Maybe that was me, or maybe it was my environment--I don't know. I wish I had stuck with it, as when I went back to school and took college physics, I was at, or nearly at, the top of the class despite having forgotten some trig, and being in the class with a high school physics teacher (who you'd think would perform better). This was pretty much me. I very briefly decided to major in math, but the higher level courses were nerdy, competitive, and sucked all the joy out of it for me. I also had a few knowledge gaps from my AP course equivalencies so I would have been playing catch-up. I ended up in art and Italian, which I loved, but wish I would have gone into architecture instead. I was too far into my studies once I looked into it though and my scholarship was only for four years.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 19, 2017 11:51:34 GMT -5
When I was at the Health Physics conference last week, I noticed that there weren't many women, and they were significantly outnumbered by men. Sure, there were some, and some of them even presented interesting research, but I'd say the total was around 15%. And this is just one very specific field.
So why aren't more women going into science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields? I know we have a few women on these boards like DramaQ and Mich that work or have worked in the sciences. Did they face any barriers that make it difficult for women to succeed in those fields? And if you're a female who didn't go into STEM, why not? And what can be done to incentivize more women to choose STEM?
For me, the barriers did not start in the job market but in HS. When I expressed an interest in science back in HS, the HS counselor suggested that I consider teaching.....or wouldn't I like to be a nice nurse? So the disincentive to go into STEM for me started back when I was 16 years old. In college, about 25-30% of my science classes were female. By the end, about 50% because males dropped out of the curriculum (or college) at a faster rate than females. The first lab that I worked in had 3 females (one was a post doc) and 8 males in it. The females wound up doing a LOT of the scut work - it was not equally shared. If you were a female, the likelihood of getting your name on a publication was nil. Not a great incentive to stay in the field, is it? Luckily, the job that I got afterwards in another lab was 180° in the other direction. The lab was staffed and run by predominantly females (thinking back, there were probably 9 females to 2 males). Education for all was encouraged, and if you produced you were rewarded with opportunities to present your research at international research meetings and your name on publications. Writing was encouraged as well, if you wrote the paper, you were first author regardless of which PI financed the research. Most of the cohorts I worked at in this second job did very well, made at the top of the salary scale by the time they retired. Like me, they recognized that they were appreciated by their PIs and were loyal. Because if this, there was a strong continuity of research, so all of the PIs who had me (and my cohorts) were very prolific in the literature. Unfortunately, in the last decade most PIs are not realizing that this continuity is important and they are paying a high price by having to retrain/teach new staff. However, and this is something that I noted when I was in school for Engineering drafting and design the last few years. When I started in my class, there were 4 females in a class of around 26 and I was one of them. I was the only one who graduated from the program. The problems I ran into were that when you have a lot of males in a room, it is VERY hard to make your voice heard. I ran into this in my career too, when I was in situations not in the lab. You also get to deal with a lot of mansplaining, which is as annoying as shit.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 19, 2017 11:54:27 GMT -5
I started as an engineering major. I didn't find it very interesting, but I did find it dirty and smelly. I was also tired of being the only, or one of a few, females in classes full of nerdy types. I was also discouraged a bit, as if I couldn't keep up. Maybe that was me, or maybe it was my environment--I don't know. I wish I had stuck with it, as when I went back to school and took college physics, I was at, or nearly at, the top of the class despite having forgotten some trig, and being in the class with a high school physics teacher (who you'd think would perform better). This was pretty much me. I very briefly decided to major in math, but the higher level courses were nerdy, competitive, and sucked all the joy out of it for me. I also had a few knowledge gaps from my AP course equivalencies so I would have been playing catch-up. I ended up in art and Italian, which I loved, but wish I would have gone into architecture instead. I was too far into my studies once I looked into it though and my scholarship was only for four years. That's funny, I really liked architecture too. If there were a program close-by, I would be one now. (I was very good at drafting in Jr/Sr HS.) But my mom clung to me with all her life, convincing me that the local CC was the best choice, then pushing me towards Accounting and a MRS degree. Then it was all downhill from there. Ah, I shouldn't rehash everything. Let's just say neither of my parents took much interest in guiding me into something that interested me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 12:10:10 GMT -5
It does make a difference when women are given support. I know one actuary, unmarried, no kids, who told me she's leaving her entire estate to the U.of Nebraska, where they make it a goal for 50% of their Math Ph.D. grads to be female.
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cktc
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Post by cktc on Jul 19, 2017 12:15:42 GMT -5
This was pretty much me. I very briefly decided to major in math, but the higher level courses were nerdy, competitive, and sucked all the joy out of it for me. I also had a few knowledge gaps from my AP course equivalencies so I would have been playing catch-up. I ended up in art and Italian, which I loved, but wish I would have gone into architecture instead. I was too far into my studies once I looked into it though and my scholarship was only for four years. That's funny, I really liked architecture too. If there were a program close-by, I would be one now. (I was very good at drafting in Jr/Sr HS.) But my mom clung to me with all her life, convincing me that the local CC was the best choice, then pushing me towards Accounting and a MRS degree. Then it was all downhill from there. Ah, I shouldn't rehash everything. Let's just say neither of my parents took much interest in guiding me into something that interested me. I had no parental encouragement or guidance either. My grandma would have preferred if I skipped college and just got a job and lived at home forever. Ah well, live and learn. I think we have a way of ending up where we are supposed to be even if another path might have been easier.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jul 19, 2017 12:36:27 GMT -5
I am a chemical engineer by training. When I was in college (mid 80s) my class were about 20% female. Chemical engineering had more than some other the other engineering fields (electrical and civil). There are more women in college now, but it is still a male dominated field. I'll make some observations on what I have seen in the field
- When I worked for a large Fortune 500 company, we would hire a lot of female engineers. The female engineers that worked for me were much better employees than that males for the first 5 years. Usually more detail oriented. Almost always better at communication. - A lot of really good female engineers that I worked with are no longer in the engineering field. I have 4 close friends that married engineers and are now SAHM, or did that for an extended period. Others left engineering and went into other fields. I don't know of any male engineers who left engineering - Engineering can be a tough and dirty field. If you work in chemical manufacturing, it can be hot (or cold) and dirty some days. At my previous job I sometimes had to be outside in manufacturing plant, it was hot (S. Georgia in the summer). Current company in in pharma, all nice and inside manufacturing, but I am project manager for a new building. I spent an hour this morning outside at construction site and came in hot and sweaty with mud on my boots. All the construction personnel are male. Almost all the design engineers are male.
Not everyone can be an engineer. Getting through school is tough. Math is the key. You have to be good at math. I would much rather take Advanced Calculus than an English class. I would just about die to have to sit through Poetry class. "What the poem really means is.....". No let me calculate an answer. I think there will always be more male than female engineers.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jul 19, 2017 13:11:43 GMT -5
My degree is in Electrical Engineering. Circa 1980. Our class had about 215 with 5 being women.
I liked math and attended a small private school in NYC. I had a lot of encouragement and chose engineering as I figured it was a good application of math.
Th EE degree opened a lot of doors for me in the first decade of my career.
I ended up doing software and software testing.
I never remember focusing on whether there were other women in my classes or on the job. I kept my attention on what I had to learn and do and how to function on a team and all the other things that go into a career.
I was very fortunate as I've worked for some great people, mostly men and a few women as well.
I was able to weather the post 9/11 years while moving through a few positions(never voluntarily as layoffs were occurring often).
I landed at my current job in my late 40's and have been very happy here.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 13:12:14 GMT -5
Let's just say neither of my parents took much interest in guiding me into something that interested me. I'm grateful my parents were as serious with my sister and me as they were with our brothers about getting an education in some field that allowed us to support ourselves. And we both did. One woman who posted on an Actuarial board (never met her IRL) went to Rensselear and said her mother bragged about her, not because she got her degree there, but because she was a cheerleader for the football team! Mom did feel much better about her daughter's choice of school when they went there and Mom saw what a huge % of the student body was male. Look, husband material!
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 19, 2017 13:32:06 GMT -5
One woman who posted on an Actuarial board (never met her IRL) went to Rensselear and said her mother bragged about her, not because she got her degree there, but because she was a cheerleader for the football team! Mom did feel much better about her daughter's choice of school when they went there and Mom saw what a huge % of the student body was male. Look, husband material! The mom could be totally misguided (has the idea that it's more important for her daughter to find a husband than a college degree) or there may be more to the story. My oldest son will be applying to college this fall and I keep trying to gently steer him into programs that have a good mix of women, which can be tough to find in the applied math and computer science programs. He is completely unconcerned with how many women are in class and just wants to go to the best program, so it mortifies him when I talk about it. If someone were to overhear me talking to a friend about this, I would sound as shallow as that mom you saw on FB, saying something like "it would be great if he could go to XYZ because there are girls there!!!" But the background is... son is highly driven academically and I'm not worried even one little bit that he won't do well, get his degree and get a great job. But socially, he's still shy around girls (which is really sad because I can see several of his "friends" like him and he's unable or too uncomfortable to see or act on it.) Part of college is learning and developing into an adult and I'm hoping that part of his personal development is to continue to have female friends and one day feel comfortable enough to actually date one of them. So yes, I'm one of the moms that is looking at male/female ratio when we look at colleges. Not because meeting women is the main reason to go, but because I'm not worried about him doing just fine in all the other areas.
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Tiny
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Post by Tiny on Jul 19, 2017 13:47:04 GMT -5
I'm in my mid 50's - back when I was in HS, when I had elective type classes the counselors would "suggest" things like short hand, typing, home ec, or some such. I had to push a bit just to get into a chemistry class. I'll admit I struggled in math classes (and even the math part of Chemistry 101). But, I wasn't ever encouraged to be better at math (as in ask more questions, do more problems, actually memorize the multiplication tables, etc...) When I was in HS - when adults asked me about my future college, career plans - it was always phrased as "so, going to go to college? Secretary?" I'd shake my head no. And they'd follow that up with "Oh! Teaching! or Nursing! - good for you!". I grew up with some very definite guidelines for what kind of work women and men did. That's why I never got into a STEM program. I am a programmer by trade... mostly because "programming" was so very outside the adults in my life knowledge. ME: "Yeah, I'm taking Data Processing at the Jr. College" THEM: "Oh, you mean like doing 'data entry' (clerical work)!" ME: "Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket! "
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milee
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Post by milee on Jul 19, 2017 14:09:38 GMT -5
I'm in my mid 50's - back when I was in HS, when I had elective type classes the counselors would "suggest" things like short hand, typing, home ec, or some such. I had to push a bit just to get into a chemistry class. I'll admit I struggled in math classes (and even the math part of Chemistry 101). But, I wasn't ever encouraged to be better at math (as in ask more questions, do more problems, actually memorize the multiplication tables, etc...) When I was in HS - when adults asked me about my future college, career plans - it was always phrased as "so, going to go to college? Secretary?" I'd shake my head no. And they'd follow that up with "Oh! Teaching! or Nursing! - good for you!". I grew up with some very definite guidelines for what kind of work women and men did. That's why I never got into a STEM program. I am a programmer by trade... mostly because "programming" was so very outside the adults in my life knowledge. ME: "Yeah, I'm taking Data Processing at the Jr. College" THEM: "Oh, you mean like doing 'data entry' (clerical work)!" ME: "Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket! " All those things are subtle, but pervasive and part of the cultural influence that gives us what we've got... Your story about people not understanding what you do and assuming it's clerical reminds me of my in-laws. They were shocked enough that I could drive a car and were never able to understand I was a CPA (initially) and then financial consultant performing turnarounds of troubled companies. To this day they would describe my work as being "a secretary for an accountant named Arthur Andersen."
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 19, 2017 14:18:30 GMT -5
When I was at the Health Physics conference last week, I noticed that there weren't many women, and they were significantly outnumbered by men. Sure, there were some, and some of them even presented interesting research, but I'd say the total was around 15%. And this is just one very specific field.
So why aren't more women going into science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields? I know we have a few women on these boards like DramaQ and Mich that work or have worked in the sciences. Did they face any barriers that make it difficult for women to succeed in those fields? And if you're a female who didn't go into STEM, why not? And what can be done to incentivize more women to choose STEM?
For me, the barriers did not start in the job market but in HS. When I expressed an interest in science back in HS, the HS counselor suggested that I consider teaching.....or wouldn't I like to be a nice nurse? So the disincentive to go into STEM for me started back when I was 16 years old. In college, about 25-30% of my science classes were female. By the end, about 50% because males dropped out of the curriculum (or college) at a faster rate than females. The first lab that I worked in had 3 females (one was a post doc) and 8 males in it. The females wound up doing a LOT of the scut work - it was not equally shared. If you were a female, the likelihood of getting your name on a publication was nil. Not a great incentive to stay in the field, is it? Luckily, the job that I got afterwards in another lab was 180° in the other direction. The lab was staffed and run by predominantly females (thinking back, there were probably 9 females to 2 males). Education for all was encouraged, and if you produced you were rewarded with opportunities to present your research at international research meetings and your name on publications. Writing was encouraged as well, if you wrote the paper, you were first author regardless of which PI financed the research. Most of the cohorts I worked at in this second job did very well, made at the top of the salary scale by the time they retired. Like me, they recognized that they were appreciated by their PIs and were loyal. Because if this, there was a strong continuity of research, so all of the PIs who had me (and my cohorts) were very prolific in the literature. Unfortunately, in the last decade most PIs are not realizing that this continuity is important and they are paying a high price by having to retrain/teach new staff. However, and this is something that I noted when I was in school for Engineering drafting and design the last few years. When I started in my class, there were 4 females in a class of around 26 and I was one of them. I was the only one who graduated from the program. The problems I ran into were that when you have a lot of males in a room, it is VERY hard to make your voice heard. I ran into this in my career too, when I was in situations not in the lab. You also get to deal with a lot of mansplaining, which is as annoying as shit. I get that in law, too. Drives me nuts.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jul 19, 2017 14:26:43 GMT -5
eh, I guess just have your fun. I'm hardly in a position to judge. But be safe! I missed this whole story...was it young cute guy at work?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 14:33:40 GMT -5
sigh... yes it was. Not at all planned and I'm not excusing it, but he was the first person in a LONG time (or maybe ever) who made me realize how fun, smart, beautiful and alive I was/am. There was a strong emotional connection which is still there to this day - almost 5 years after we met. We are both single, but we communicate and spend time together regularly. Not sure if we are good for each other in an official relationship kind of way (want different things right now and want to focus on our careers), but we know we have each other's backs and will pick up the other when they are down.
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 19, 2017 14:36:23 GMT -5
I love to travel and would have gladly done so on the company dime back in the day, had I had the opportunity. My current family obligations are such that I can't now. I would love to have the freedom to, believe me. Perhaps with a more equitable distribution of home duties between the sexes, there would be less of an issue of distribution of travel for business.or women in general moving up the corporate ladder. Or, as I like to tell those I know with kids, fuck it it's not like your husband is going to kill the kid. They'll survive somehow.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 19, 2017 14:37:39 GMT -5
One woman who posted on an Actuarial board (never met her IRL) went to Rensselear and said her mother bragged about her, not because she got her degree there, but because she was a cheerleader for the football team! Mom did feel much better about her daughter's choice of school when they went there and Mom saw what a huge % of the student body was male. Look, husband material! The mom could be totally misguided (has the idea that it's more important for her daughter to find a husband than a college degree) or there may be more to the story. My oldest son will be applying to college this fall and I keep trying to gently steer him into programs that have a good mix of women, which can be tough to find in the applied math and computer science programs. He is completely unconcerned with how many women are in class and just wants to go to the best program, so it mortifies him when I talk about it. If someone were to overhear me talking to a friend about this, I would sound as shallow as that mom you saw on FB, saying something like "it would be great if he could go to XYZ because there are girls there!!!" But the background is... son is highly driven academically and I'm not worried even one little bit that he won't do well, get his degree and get a great job. But socially, he's still shy around girls (which is really sad because I can see several of his "friends" like him and he's unable or too uncomfortable to see or act on it.) Part of college is learning and developing into an adult and I'm hoping that part of his personal development is to continue to have female friends and one day feel comfortable enough to actually date one of them. So yes, I'm one of the moms that is looking at male/female ratio when we look at colleges. Not because meeting women is the main reason to go, but because I'm not worried about him doing just fine in all the other areas. Send him to Clarkson University. While Clarkson is more men than women, SUNY Potsdam is in the same tiny town, has more women, and the two colleges mix freely. I know several CU husband/SUNY Potsdam wife combos.
And I'll check up on him for you.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 19, 2017 14:38:52 GMT -5
or women in general moving up the corporate ladder. Or, as I like to tell those I know with kids, fuck it it's not like your husband is going to kill the kid. They'll survive somehow. When I have to travel for work, I'm always asked what arrangements I've made for the kids. DH has never been asked that, it's just assumed I have it under control. My children have a perfectly capable father.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jul 19, 2017 14:40:00 GMT -5
That's funny, I really liked architecture too. If there were a program close-by, I would be one now. (I was very good at drafting in Jr/Sr HS.) But my mom clung to me with all her life, convincing me that the local CC was the best choice, then pushing me towards Accounting and a MRS degree. Then it was all downhill from there. Ah, I shouldn't rehash everything. Let's just say neither of my parents took much interest in guiding me into something that interested me. I had no parental encouragement or guidance either. My grandma would have preferred if I skipped college and just got a job and lived at home forever. Ah well, live and learn. I think we have a way of ending up where we are supposed to be even if another path might have been easier. My parents were pretty old school and the brother was meant for great things with low expectations for me. Brother did not do well in school so I did turn that around a bit, but I remember when I dropped out of a phd program and was looking for an entry level job in either research or hr - my mother being very aggravated that I wasn't looking for an entry level clerical position like she started with. Cuz they were easy to get. I had a masters degree and teaching, research experience and had done an hr internship ... But I should look for a job I could have gotten out of high school
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 19, 2017 14:52:23 GMT -5
Yeah, I should mention for the record, that my DH is not my own issue in the slightest. He probably does more around the house than I do, or just as much. He would be a much better SAHS than I am. Kids schedules/activities are still largely up to me, though.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Jul 19, 2017 15:34:12 GMT -5
I'm in my mid 50's - back when I was in HS, when I had elective type classes the counselors would "suggest" things like short hand, typing, home ec, or some such. I had to push a bit just to get into a chemistry class. I'll admit I struggled in math classes (and even the math part of Chemistry 101). But, I wasn't ever encouraged to be better at math (as in ask more questions, do more problems, actually memorize the multiplication tables, etc...) When I was in HS - when adults asked me about my future college, career plans - it was always phrased as "so, going to go to college? Secretary?" I'd shake my head no. And they'd follow that up with "Oh! Teaching! or Nursing! - good for you!". I grew up with some very definite guidelines for what kind of work women and men did. That's why I never got into a STEM program. I am a programmer by trade... mostly because "programming" was so very outside the adults in my life knowledge. ME: "Yeah, I'm taking Data Processing at the Jr. College" THEM: "Oh, you mean like doing 'data entry' (clerical work)!" ME: "Yeah, yeah, that's the ticket! " All those things are subtle, but pervasive and part of the cultural influence that gives us what we've got... Your story about people not understanding what you do and assuming it's clerical reminds me of my in-laws. They were shocked enough that I could drive a car and were never able to understand I was a CPA (initially) and then financial consultant performing turnarounds of troubled companies. To this day they would describe my work as being "a secretary for an accountant named Arthur Andersen." I am in my mid-50s also, but I never felt like I was encouraged to do "woman's work". Of course I was raised a tomboy. My dad treated me the same as my younger brothers, took me deep sea fishing, diving, how to work on cars, how to work on boat motors. I also had a strong role model for a mother who worked full time as a medical office manager. I was put in an exceptional science program in middle school. It was for 50 students in the entire Miami-Dade school system. There were 2 boys from my school that were also in it, at first I felt like I wasn't as smart as they were, but eventually realized I could do just as well as them. I did take typing as an elective in high school, mainly because I had so many extra classes from summer science classes so there were only a few options left. Typing skills helped tremendously when everyone started to get a computer. I started out at college pre-med. No one ever suggested nursing school. After I realized I really didn't like sick people, I switched schools and switched to engineering.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jul 19, 2017 15:56:35 GMT -5
All those things are subtle, but pervasive and part of the cultural influence that gives us what we've got... Your story about people not understanding what you do and assuming it's clerical reminds me of my in-laws. They were shocked enough that I could drive a car and were never able to understand I was a CPA (initially) and then financial consultant performing turnarounds of troubled companies. To this day they would describe my work as being "a secretary for an accountant named Arthur Andersen." I am in my mid-50s also, but I never felt like I was encouraged to do "woman's work". Of course I was raised a tomboy. My dad treated me the same as my younger brothers, took me deep sea fishing, diving, how to work on cars, how to work on boat motors. I also had a strong role model for a mother who worked full time as a medical office manager. I was put in an exceptional science program in middle school. It was for 50 students in the entire Miami-Dade school system. There were 2 boys from my school that were also in it, at first I felt like I wasn't as smart as they were, but eventually realized I could do just as well as them. I did take typing as an elective in high school, mainly because I had so many extra classes from summer science classes so there were only a few options left. Typing skills helped tremendously when everyone started to get a computer. I started out at college pre-med. No one ever suggested nursing school. After I realized I really didn't like sick people, I switched schools and switched to engineering. I'm about the same age too. The difference was that when I told my parents what the counselor told me, they went ballistic. I think it was a lot easier to buck the era if you had parents who had your back and supported your interests.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Jul 19, 2017 16:06:53 GMT -5
In junior high, our guidance counselor was a sexist jerk and actively dissuaded girls from going to college because "they were just going to get married anyway"
I told my parents. They told me the guy was stupid and that's why he's a guidance counselor, and I can do anything I want.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jul 19, 2017 16:25:06 GMT -5
I'm 65. Not only did my high school guidance counselors encourage me to take shorthand and typing, so did my parents. My dad refused to sign my schedule until I took some classes off and put shorthand and typing in.
I had other ideas. I did start working as a secretary on the Monday after high school graduation. However, I took college classes at night and then finally during the day to get me to a position where I could have a well paying job at the federal agency where I worked.
I'm so glad I did that. It's doubtful if I could ever have bought my own place on a secretary's wage.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jul 19, 2017 18:09:50 GMT -5
I think, as I've always thought, we need to really listen to our kids and guide them into finding their path. I don't think we should push girls (or boys) into STEM fields if they don't show any interest or aptitude. I DO think we need to continue to show the practical and "fun" side of STEM subjects to make them more appealing to everyone in general. A friend of mine's daughter is entering Perdue University's school of engineering this fall. During her last two years of high school, the daughter was involved in her school's robotics club which competed in regional and national competitions with other high schools. Their daughter found it fun. What their daughter ends up with as major will be determined over the next few years but it will be within the engineering field. Great school for it and very hard to get into!!
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nittanycheme
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Post by nittanycheme on Jul 19, 2017 20:46:40 GMT -5
I'm in my mid-40's; I ended up in engineering because I was good in math/science, and one of my friends had an engineer as a father and suggested that we should be engineers too (we were in math classes together). We took M/S classes together most of rest of HS, and we tried to take drafting together so each of us weren't the only girls. It didn't work out - it was the first year they had enough people signed up for 2 classes so we each ended up in one. Once I started college, my early classes had more women in them, but by the time I got into my major classes it was a lot less. I think I graduate with about 100 ChemE's or so, and I think only 6 of us were women. In the workforce, the 2 large companies I worked for have women through their scientific/eng organization (both big pharma), but there are certainly more men overall. The smaller company I worked for seemed to assume that all of their engineers had stay at home spouses. I was the second woman engineer they hired, and I don't think they treated me a lot differently, but they expected their engineers to work a lot of hours, and round the clock. I ended up leaving because I just wanted to be able to sleep through night without getting calls/having to go in/having to work 20 hour days. However, while I was there I did find out that at least one of the male engineers made a lot more than me since he had a habit of leaving his paystub everywhere (and caused issues with some of the other male engineers who didn't make as much either). He ended up getting fired for being incompetent and lying, and both myself and one of the other underpaid male engineers (hired from a coop) got really big raises for a few years!
That smaller company runs through engineers pretty regularly; if someone works for a company like them, and thinks that what all engineering jobs are like, they probably have reason to leave the field. While I very occasionally work really long hours at my current job, its not nearly as frequent (it used to be 3/4 weeks per month at my old place) and we really try to spread it around so everyone in our group is pitching in.
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simser
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Joined: Jan 29, 2011 15:54:04 GMT -5
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Post by simser on Jul 19, 2017 23:07:16 GMT -5
Oh me me! I'm a chemist. And female. And darn tooting smart.
It was elementary school that my parents were told "why are you encouraging her math, she's a girl" by a vice principal.
It was middle school in which I was told to act "more like a boy" to do well in science.
In undergrad I watched my female advisor get denied a promotion because she took an 8 day maternity leave and it was too long. That was eventually overturned.
Grad school had a female advisor denied tenure basically because she didn't sleep with some male profs. Another time I was told "you are too small to move gas cylinders" (I had a wrench in my hands, and had been doing it for 7 years at that point) and my personal favorite "you're a woman so clearly your brain is too small to understand what I need to explain it to you".
In the business world I've been told that I was held to a higher standard than my male colleagues. Every female I talked to had been sexually harassed.
You have to be tough as nails to survive, especially as you go into harder sciences (harder for physical chemists than organic for example). I'm very happy that my brain loves chemistry, but it has not been easy, and things change slowly. I've seen that the best level of equality has been things like paternity leave (so maternity leave doesn't stick out). So while I wouldn't tell another girl to stay out of hard science, I would warn her.
Also, in fair and balanced perspective, once I figured out how to use the woman thing to my advantage (late grad school, with some help from some awesome guys) it has been easier and a level playing field (I have some advantages as a woman, males have their advantages too). But it took 28 years of learning from amazing women how to fit in and make that happen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2017 6:58:52 GMT -5
I"m finding some of these stories really heartening. I wish I'd had simser's mentor!
We still need to change attitudes, though. Last month I was working in the church garden-we grow produce for the local soup kitchen- and we had our usual crop of HS kids doing community service work because they're on probation for minor crimes. I was side by side with a young woman, pulling weeds and talking about travel. She'd only been to the next state and really wanted to see the world. I was telling her about my travels and how my work enabled a lot of it- but as business travel and through an income that allowed me to travel on my own.
I told her to pick a STEM field and said that I'd been a Math major. She said, "Oh, I like math". I said she should look into the actuarial field and she replied, "I want to go into cosmetology". Now, I'm glad there are cosmetologists- I like to have one cut my hair from time to time-but that's not going to get her very far unless she marries well.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 20, 2017 7:20:08 GMT -5
I"m finding some of these stories really heartening. I wish I'd had simser's mentor! We still need to change attitudes, though. Last month I was working in the church garden-we grow produce for the local soup kitchen- and we had our usual crop of HS kids doing community service work because they're on probation for minor crimes. I was side by side with a young woman, pulling weeds and talking about travel. She'd only been to the next state and really wanted to see the world. I was telling her about my travels and how my work enabled a lot of it- but as business travel and through an income that allowed me to travel on my own. I told her to pick a STEM field and said that I'd been a Math major. She said, "Oh, I like math". I said she should look into the actuarial field and she replied, "I want to go into cosmetology". Now, I'm glad there are cosmetologists- I like to have one cut my hair from time to time-but that's not going to get her very far unless she marries well. No. But being a cosmetologist might be a step up from what she's seeing now. At least in my neck of the woods, the kids that are in those sorts programs have more against them then going for them. And, sure there are some that manage to pull themselves out of poor situations, excel at a 4 year school and go from poverty to making over 100K. But it's not the norm. She's going to need a lot more support to get there...
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 20, 2017 7:38:48 GMT -5
When I have to travel for work, I'm always asked what arrangements I've made for the kids. DH has never been asked that, it's just assumed I have it under control. My children have a perfectly capable father. It took my old supervisor 4 years to stop asking what we were doing for daycare when we procreated. And he KNEW that DH was a SAHD. My team leader is very sweet. He also is the one giving me the most grief about my maternity leave plans. I know he's worried about my well-being and wants to have a good work/life balance. And don't get me wrong, I'm super thankful for that. But, I don't like that he makes suppositions about what I can and can't handle. And that frustrates the shit out of me, even though I know it's from a good place. Finally, I did have to remind him that DH IS the primary caregiver of our kids...and that my job is to earn the money/manage it properly, and his is largely to keep the home fires burning. And I had to remind him that what works for most families doesn't work for us. But, I shouldn't have to be pushed to say such things. I know when I'm at my limit. I did actually say something to my current supervisor a few months ago. I'm 41. I know myself better than my co-workers.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 20, 2017 7:56:19 GMT -5
You see articles about businesses complaining about the "skills gap." In other words, they have vacancies that supposedly they can't find people to fill, so they have to bring in forign workers.
I think that's mostly BS. To me, it's just a code word for:
1. Employers are too cheap to create and maintain their own training programs. 2. Employers want to bring in foreign workers so they can pay them less.
I think #2 is a fair point. #1 is really just a confirmation of a skills gap though. If you can bring in this group who is ready to work, or bring in this group who needs me to set up a training program for them to be fit for the job...that really does point to a legitimate skills gap existing.
And just to toss in my own experience...I'm actually seeing a LOT of female foreign workers in our STEM fields. I see a far great proportion of women-to-men from foreign employees (either those coming to the US or working in foreign countries) than I do from US workers. I also see a lot more minority women from the US entering STEM fields as compared to Caucasian women (I'm assuming because it's a far more level playing field than other non-technical opportunities might be).
I'll admit, my perspective is likely skewed because I've worked for the government and the DOD in particular. We do TONS of training and qualification. It took me about two years to qualify as a inspector.
I realize that creating a comprehensive training program spanning years is not feasible for most employers. After all, they're in the business of making a profit, not in the business of becoming trade schools or colleges. But still, depending on the skill and the job, if it can be trained in six months or less I'd seriously look at training people rather than bitching about how no one meets my standards as an employee.
Regarding female minorities in STEM, I haven't seen it in my slice of the STEM field, in physics and health physics. But as WXYZ's article pointed out, some science fields have more women than others.
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