Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 19, 2017 7:31:42 GMT -5
When I was at the Health Physics conference last week, I noticed that there weren't many women, and they were significantly outnumbered by men. Sure, there were some, and some of them even presented interesting research, but I'd say the total was around 15%. And this is just one very specific field.
So why aren't more women going into science, technology, engineering, and math (STEM) fields? I know we have a few women on these boards like DramaQ and Mich that work or have worked in the sciences. Did they face any barriers that make it difficult for women to succeed in those fields? And if you're a female who didn't go into STEM, why not? And what can be done to incentivize more women to choose STEM?
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jul 19, 2017 8:14:15 GMT -5
I'm a woman and I'm in a STEM field (Cerfified Public Accountant).
When I was a younger kid, I didn't like math. As I got older, I really got into math and science. I took an accounting course in high school and liked it. I took some more accounting courses in college and decided to become a CPA. I still liked sciences but liked the accounting side better.
I had a friend in high school who majored in Biochemistry as she loved it. She moved away for a guy and found a job in retail management. She couldn't find anything in her field that she liked when she moved. Most likely if she hadn't moved away, she would be working in her field as more options in the area she moved from. FWIW, her and that guy are no longer together but she won't move back due to the cost of living.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 19, 2017 8:17:00 GMT -5
I started as an engineering major. I didn't find it very interesting, but I did find it dirty and smelly. I was also tired of being the only, or one of a few, females in classes full of nerdy types. I was also discouraged a bit, as if I couldn't keep up. Maybe that was me, or maybe it was my environment--I don't know. I wish I had stuck with it, as when I went back to school and took college physics, I was at, or nearly at, the top of the class despite having forgotten some trig, and being in the class with a high school physics teacher (who you'd think would perform better).
These days, I think they're much more encouraging of females. Heck, I think just a few years later than my own school days, the attitude shifted. I still think they need to make it seem much more interesting to kids in general--because it really is interesting, but it competes against other topics that quickly grab their attention. I struggle with this issue with my DS.
Phoenix, what made you decide to get into that field? Perhaps that could inform our discussion.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 8:26:11 GMT -5
I am a Biology/Psychology major. I like all the science classes. I was good at it in college and it didn't bore the hell out of me like the other areas. I wish I would have pursued it more, but stayed in manufacturing and depending on what they want done, I'm occasionally considered a quality engineer....just without the engineer pay.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 19, 2017 8:36:56 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, I forgot my psychology degree was science! No decent jobs were available in my area for someone with just a bachelor's degree. Tell you what, it seems like when women do really get into a certain field, including a STEM field (see: biology, accounting--not STEM, but relatable), the pay and availability of jobs drops dramatically.
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giramomma
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Post by giramomma on Jul 19, 2017 8:40:40 GMT -5
That surprises me.
I had a friend/client that got her PhD in medical physics or something really close to it.
I went to her dissertation presentation. I've forgotten the numbers now, because it's been 5 years...But 75%-80% in attendance where women.
But, I did a quick google search and it seems to be that my experience was not the norm.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 19, 2017 8:49:56 GMT -5
I'm not in a STEM field. My brain doesn't work that way. I'm in sales. My brain understands abstract way better than facts. I could never be in a science or math field.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 8:52:44 GMT -5
I think, as I've always thought, we need to really listen to our kids and guide them into finding their path. I don't think we should push girls (or boys) into STEM fields if they don't show any interest or aptitude. I DO think we need to continue to show the practical and "fun" side of STEM subjects to make them more appealing to everyone in general.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jul 19, 2017 9:03:25 GMT -5
I think, as I've always thought, we need to really listen to our kids and guide them into finding their path. I don't think we should push girls (or boys) into STEM fields if they don't show any interest or aptitude. I DO think we need to continue to show the practical and "fun" side of STEM subjects to make them more appealing to everyone in general. A friend of mine's daughter is entering Perdue University's school of engineering this fall. During her last two years of high school, the daughter was involved in her school's robotics club which competed in regional and national competitions with other high schools. Their daughter found it fun. What their daughter ends up with as major will be determined over the next few years but it will be within the engineering field.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 9:03:38 GMT -5
I'm not in a STEM field. My brain doesn't work that way. I'm in sales. My brain understands abstract way better than facts. I could never be in a science or math field. I have always loved marine biology and astronomy, but I have ZERO desire to get a PhD. I appreciate chemistry and physics as well, but as my foray into engineering showed, I lack the discipline and interest in the beginner classes so there was no way I'd get good enough grades to stay for the good stuff. My head literally hurt when talking about logarithms. And all those physics formulas? Forget it. If it's something cool about science, I'm all for it. Once you get into the boring math stuff, my brain takes a vacation.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 9:22:45 GMT -5
I really started to enjoy math when I got into geometry. By the time I was a senior in HS I was teaching myself calculus from Dad's old college textbook. (This was 1970/71. so it wasn't taught in HS.) I should have gone into Engineering but it scared me so I majored in Math. I took a few computer classes and found that I loved Fortran coding. I'd thought I could get a job doing programming for technical applications- took some Physics classes, too- but the engineers could code as well as I could so they got hired instead. The only offer I had was entry-level actuarial, so I took it. It was a good ride. Worked with smart people on interesting problems, even saw some of the world on the company dime (I had business trips to London for 4 different employers). When I became a Fellow of the Society in 1983, only 10% of the Fellows were female. Now, the new "classes" are practically 50% female. When I see a group that's all-male or nearly all-male (HS robotics team, chess club, group of doctors) I always ask myself, "Where are the women?" I don't have all the answers but it's sure better than in the 1970s. Unlike Lizard Queen, I LOVED being in classes where I was the only female, or one of a few. I wasn't good at flirting but I could work side-by-side with guys as if they were- gasp!- normal people, and that's how my relationships developed. Sure, some were nerds but not all of them. And the nerds mature. I haven't gone too public with this yet but I had a few platonic dates with a guy I met in a computer class in college. We lost touch over the years till I found him on LinkedIn 9 years ago. He'd thought all these years that I was angry at him for losing contact. Hardly. He came through town a couple of times and had dinner with DH and me. We traded e-mails regularly, which were thoroughly G-rated and which DH knew about. He's married but always sounded happier when he was on the road doing contract gigs than when he was home with his wife, who sounded like a very unhappy person who had few interests beyond her two adult kids and their grandchildren. So, he came through town 2 weeks ago on his way to another job. He was here for 2 nights but stayed in a hotel and the visit was still G-rated but the discussions took an interesting turn. He's been lusting after me since our first date (I knew that) but has been very gentlemanly about it. I'm thinking it's time. We won't see each other for another few months but I can't wait!
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 9:27:19 GMT -5
OOOOH, you better get it, Athena!!!!
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 19, 2017 9:32:28 GMT -5
Is he still married?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 9:33:45 GMT -5
Because I know we were both heathens, but I know that I'm not eager to repeat that particular chapter.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 9:53:13 GMT -5
Yep- and neither he nor I want to change that. I love my life right now and can't imagine moving another man into my lovely, peaceful house, nor would I want to sell it and move in with someone else. Not to mention the fact that I could end up on the hook for 100% of the guy's LTC costs if I choose one who's planning on letting Medicaid foot the bill. (No idea what friend's finances are. Not my business.)
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 19, 2017 9:55:04 GMT -5
Yep- and neither he nor I want to change that. I love my life right now and can't imagine moving another man into my lovely, peaceful house, nor would I want to sell it and move in with someone else. Not to mention the fact that I could end up on the hook for 100% of the guy's LTC costs if I choose one who's planning on letting Medicaid foot the bill. (No idea what friend's finances are. Not my business.) But you have no problem eating a married man?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 10:05:01 GMT -5
But you have no problem dating a married man? A bit of one, yes. We've been hashing this out and he doesn't want me to do anything I'd regret. I have to admit there's a precedent here. I had an affair when my first marriage was on the rocks. He was married. I didn't want him on a permanent basis, nor did he intend to leave his wife. It was a bright spot in a bad part of my life. It ended when I met DH and we left it on friendly terms. I have not yet repented of that. I find nothing to repent. And yes, I'm a practicing Christian.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 10:19:45 GMT -5
eh, I guess just have your fun. I'm hardly in a position to judge. But be safe!
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Jul 19, 2017 10:23:52 GMT -5
Wow. I'm going to leave that alone.
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taz157
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Post by taz157 on Jul 19, 2017 10:25:40 GMT -5
Wow. I'm going to leave that alone. Yeah that.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 19, 2017 10:48:28 GMT -5
There are women in STEM, they just don't attend conferences because they're home taking care of the kids (I'm only partially joking there, when I started traveling for work I was shocked at how often "she has kids" was a legit reason for women to not travel...primarily because the women didn't want to travel).
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 19, 2017 10:49:28 GMT -5
I started as an engineering major. I didn't find it very interesting, but I did find it dirty and smelly. I was also tired of being the only, or one of a few, females in classes full of nerdy types. I was also discouraged a bit, as if I couldn't keep up. Maybe that was me, or maybe it was my environment--I don't know. I wish I had stuck with it, as when I went back to school and took college physics, I was at, or nearly at, the top of the class despite having forgotten some trig, and being in the class with a high school physics teacher (who you'd think would perform better). These days, I think they're much more encouraging of females. Heck, I think just a few years later than my own school days, the attitude shifted. I still think they need to make it seem much more interesting to kids in general--because it really is interesting, but it competes against other topics that quickly grab their attention. I struggle with this issue with my DS. Phoenix, what made you decide to get into that field? Perhaps that could inform our discussion. My dad is a meteorologist and was always good at math and science. Growing up, I liked science as well though I don't have his degree of math ability. Although I think I'm better than average at math, I never found it interesting nor do I think I'm that good compared to most physicists or scientists.
Anyway, I took at lot of science classes in high school because I found them more interesting than history or English. When I was starting college I knew I wanted to go into the sciences but didn't know what. My parents were telling me I should think about environmental science. We went to a professor who taught environmental science at the University I was thinking about going to. He was the worst salesmen ever for his program, basically told us in no uncertain terms that if you get an environmental science degree you'll never work for the federal government (which is what I wanted to do).
I started my freshmen year of college as an undecided major. But I got tired of people asking me my major so the first night I thought about it and picked physics. I was always more interested in the physical sciences than biology or chemistry.
After I graduated from college, all I knew is I wanted to work for the federal government like my dad, and my parents encouraged it. I didn't have a specific job in mind, so just applied for any entry level job I qualified for. The first place to hire me was naval shipyard that worked on nuclear submarines, which introduced me to radiation safety. I started out as a technician and didn't make much money, but it introduced me to the field of health physics and radiation safety and I had the physics degree so it put me on the path to being a health physicist.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2017 10:56:04 GMT -5
There are women in STEM, they just don't attend conferences because they're home taking care of the kids (I'm only partially joking there, when I started traveling for work I was shocked at how often "she has kids" was a legit reason for women to not travel...primarily because the women didn't want to travel). Wow- I loved the travel. It wasn't the road warrior stuff where you're gone every week, but even though I loved DS, a few nights in a good hotel, some excellent restaurant meals and not having to make my bed were a perk. OTOH, a nephew ended up being passed over for a promotion in banking in favor of a woman who announced she couldn't travel because she was a single mother. He got sick of doing the travel she should have been doing and found a better job.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Jul 19, 2017 10:59:02 GMT -5
There are women in STEM, they just don't attend conferences because they're home taking care of the kids (I'm only partially joking there, when I started traveling for work I was shocked at how often "she has kids" was a legit reason for women to not travel...primarily because the women didn't want to travel). I love to travel and would have gladly done so on the company dime back in the day, had I had the opportunity. My current family obligations are such that I can't now. I would love to have the freedom to, believe me. Perhaps with a more equitable distribution of home duties between the sexes, there would be less of an issue of distribution of travel for business.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 19, 2017 11:02:03 GMT -5
I do consider it encouraging that: Women are 29% of the science and engineering workforce. Women make up (15%) of engineers and (25%) of computer and mathematical sciences. Change takes time, but it is happening, and will continue to happen more and more. My daughter is in a profession that is about 90% men and she is doing very nicely. I will repeat, I believe the influx of foreign (male) STEM workers is a job killer especially for our female STEM grads as well as our male STEM grads. Many of those foreign workers embedded in our tech system have cultural values that do not favor women workers. You see articles about businesses complaining about the "skills gap." In other words, they have vacancies that supposedly they can't find people to fill, so they have to bring in forign workers.
I think that's mostly BS. To me, it's just a code word for:
1. Employers are too cheap to create and maintain their own training programs. 2. Employers want to bring in foreign workers so they can pay them less.
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Phoenix84
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Post by Phoenix84 on Jul 19, 2017 11:10:31 GMT -5
There are women in STEM, they just don't attend conferences because they're home taking care of the kids (I'm only partially joking there, when I started traveling for work I was shocked at how often "she has kids" was a legit reason for women to not travel...primarily because the women didn't want to travel). My job requires a decent amount of travel, and I think that does drive off a lot of women. I can understand it. it'd be hard to travel 10 weeks out of the year with young kids at home. If you do it, you need a supportive spouse and let's face it, women still end up doing most of the child rearing.
At my job though, you don't have much of a choice. They'll work with your schedule to an extent if you need to go on paternity leave or get injured, but you can't just not do travel.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Jul 19, 2017 11:14:53 GMT -5
Nephew's wife is from Ukraine. Both have PhD's in STEM. I have noticed when they put pictures on FB from conferences, it is mostly men in suits.
She does attend a women only conference once a year and loves it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 11:16:31 GMT -5
There are women in STEM, they just don't attend conferences because they're home taking care of the kids (I'm only partially joking there, when I started traveling for work I was shocked at how often "she has kids" was a legit reason for women to not travel...primarily because the women didn't want to travel). I love to travel and would have gladly done so on the company dime back in the day, had I had the opportunity. My current family obligations are such that I can't now. I would love to have the freedom to, believe me. Perhaps with a more equitable distribution of home duties between the sexes, there would be less of an issue of distribution of travel for business.or women in general moving up the corporate ladder.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jul 19, 2017 11:17:26 GMT -5
I do consider it encouraging that: Women are 29% of the science and engineering workforce. Women make up (15%) of engineers and (25%) of computer and mathematical sciences. Change takes time, but it is happening, and will continue to happen more and more. My daughter is in a profession that is about 90% men and she is doing very nicely. I will repeat, I believe the influx of foreign (male) STEM workers is a job killer especially for our female STEM grads as well as our male STEM grads. Many of those foreign workers embedded in our tech system have cultural values that do not favor women workers. You see articles about businesses complaining about the "skills gap." In other words, they have vacancies that supposedly they can't find people to fill, so they have to bring in forign workers.
I think that's mostly BS. To me, it's just a code word for:
1. Employers are too cheap to create and maintain their own training programs. 2. Employers want to bring in foreign workers so they can pay them less.
bingo.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Jul 19, 2017 11:22:10 GMT -5
I do consider it encouraging that: Women are 29% of the science and engineering workforce. Women make up (15%) of engineers and (25%) of computer and mathematical sciences. Change takes time, but it is happening, and will continue to happen more and more. My daughter is in a profession that is about 90% men and she is doing very nicely. I will repeat, I believe the influx of foreign (male) STEM workers is a job killer especially for our female STEM grads as well as our male STEM grads. Many of those foreign workers embedded in our tech system have cultural values that do not favor women workers. You see articles about businesses complaining about the "skills gap." In other words, they have vacancies that supposedly they can't find people to fill, so they have to bring in forign workers.
I think that's mostly BS. To me, it's just a code word for:
1. Employers are too cheap to create and maintain their own training programs. 2. Employers want to bring in foreign workers so they can pay them less.
I think #2 is a fair point. #1 is really just a confirmation of a skills gap though. If you can bring in this group who is ready to work, or bring in this group who needs me to set up a training program for them to be fit for the job...that really does point to a legitimate skills gap existing.
And just to toss in my own experience...I'm actually seeing a LOT of female foreign workers in our STEM fields. I see a far great proportion of women-to-men from foreign employees (either those coming to the US or working in foreign countries) than I do from US workers. I also see a lot more minority women from the US entering STEM fields as compared to Caucasian women (I'm assuming because it's a far more level playing field than other non-technical opportunities might be).
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