Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 14:59:43 GMT -5
Of course not. That's why you date. You can spend as much time as you like together, as long as it's in public, or in company, or otherwise in a situation where you're not reasonably going to be tempted to have sex, like driving to a restaurant or riding your bikes to school together. So, when you finally DO get married, you're marrying a stranger. If you consider everyone who's never jumped your bones a "stranger", I suppose so.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 12, 2017 15:01:03 GMT -5
I was dating in the 50's, Virgil Showlion , ang your last sentence doesn't express reality, even in the midwest US where I grew up. Often, we dated in groups, or double dated with another couple. However, we sometimes went out with a friend of the opposite sex alone. We'd go to the drive-in movies, or just driving around. It wasn't considered wrong, or alien. Most of us had been taught what was right and what was not and we knew how to reach our parents if the need arose. I had only one situation in which it became necessary. Too often, today's younger folks have a very incorrect view of the 50s. Going to the drive-in or driving around with your date isn't a private setting. We're talking about situations where the dating couple could jump each other's bones right there in the heat of passion. I didn't know that! And couples who use birth control sometimes still get pregnant! I guess that means there's no difference between using a condom and not using a condom! <chuckle> I beg to differ, Virgil. Quite a few babies had their inception at drive-in movies and there's nothing to prevent a couple from driving to a very private location, pulling the car over, and ... well, doing what folks tend to do. Both are situations in which bones were jumped in the heat of passion. The difference then was more about disappearing if pregnancy resulted. Now, that's no longer done for the most part. I'm not saying I approve of teen pregnancies. I certainly don't. However, I'm not so naive as to believe they didn't happen with some regularity in the 50s, and even in the 30s and 40s. They just weren't visible as cover-ups were the norm. Your attempts at sarcasm don't work on me. It's really just a waste of keystrokes.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 15:03:26 GMT -5
Don't get me started on the 20s.. and the 1890s... Lordy!
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Jun 12, 2017 15:22:39 GMT -5
Bullshit. My great grandmother was father unknown. It wasn't a horrific thing. I read plenty of books written in a specific time that accurately reflect the age and it's not as 'clean cut' as you suggest. Rural also meant often no regular preacher and that didn't stop people from making it legal whenever he made the rounds. Etc. It's like people thinking abortion was illegal always pre roe v wade. Not recognizing it was only about 100 years in which it was restricted. It's not a question of "Did X happen prior to Y?" because the answer is always 'yes' and usually, 'yes, a lot'. That doesn't mean the rate of occurrence of any given vice wasn't drastically different from today. It's a statistical question of how often it happened, where, and what the consequences were. As is the definition of "vice" even if you compare the Victorian values versus what I grew up under. While my parents wouldn't have been thrilled with any of the 7 of us coming home with a pregnancy announcement, they also made it clear that should that happen home was a safe place where they would help you. It probably helped that they were in hiding (in plain sight) together during the last 6 months of WWII. DB1 was born 6 months after the end of the war They knew how hard it could be when you start out too young and with nothing, so they would have made sure we wouldn't face the same start-up problems. As it was I was the youngest to become a parent just shy of 27yo...
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 15:25:41 GMT -5
Yes and no. The majority of society was agrarian prior to 1900, hence the concept of a suburban housewife who didn't have to get down and dirty milking the cows, hauling eggs to market, etc. was mostly confined to between 1900 and 1950. Before this, women typically had many more children--sometimes as many as 12--and the family dynamic was quite different, especially on a farm. Divorce was a big deal, however. Fornication and adultery were an extremely big deal outside of big cities. The big cities were the moral cesspits of the time, where the drinking, gambling, whoring, etc. would take place in earnest. But the vast majority of people didn't live in big cities. Actually the United States had more of it's population in cities than in rural areas as of about the dawn of the 20th century, if I remember right. Sort of a confluence of the industrial revolution, immigration and the (early) mechanization of farming that spurred it, but by WWI we were considered an urban nation. I think it is easy to simplify and say that cities were "urban cesspools" but it really is not true, at least not in a moral sense. It is true that all sorts of vice was available in the cities, but not everyone partook of the available wine women and song. Many people did live in urban ghettos, which could be called cesspools of a different sort I suppose, but those were of grinding poverty and exploitation rather than vice. (read- child labor, triangle shirt factory, The Jungle by Upton Sinclair) I'm not sure why you're saying "actually" when our numbers agree. From what I've read, about 50% of families lived on farms in 1900. As for big cities, only a small percentage of North Americans lived in cities with population > 100,000. When I say "cesspits", I mean they tended to have much higher incidences of the aforementioned vice. I didn't mean to imply that every urban dweller engaged in them.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 15:30:56 GMT -5
You think rural communities lacked vice?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 15:33:06 GMT -5
You think rural communities lacked vice? Markedly lower rates of incidence, depending on the vice.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 12, 2017 15:41:23 GMT -5
So, when you finally DO get married, you're marrying a stranger. If you consider everyone who's never jumped your bones a "stranger", I suppose so. You don't really get to know somebody if you're always chaperoned or in a group. People behave very differently one-on-one.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 15:46:37 GMT -5
If you consider everyone who's never jumped your bones a "stranger", I suppose so. You don't really get to know somebody if you're always chaperoned or in a group. People behave very differently one-on-one. You've never had a one-on-one conversation over dinner in a restaurant? Or over coffee at a Starbucks? Or riding on the subway? Or walking through the park? Or over the phone?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Jun 12, 2017 15:50:33 GMT -5
You don't get to really know somebody over coffee in a public place, Virgil.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Jun 12, 2017 16:05:43 GMT -5
Talk about thread drift......all over a pair of shoes worn by a female college student. You guys let Griffin off easy.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jun 12, 2017 16:59:01 GMT -5
Nerts. Kids from small towns got knocked up a lot because there was nothing else to do except screw out in the boonies.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 17:05:06 GMT -5
Or drink homemade liquor.
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 12, 2017 17:18:54 GMT -5
Let's get back on topic, please. This thread is about the Kathy Griffin incident. Thanks.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jun 12, 2017 17:50:17 GMT -5
You think rural communities lacked vice? Markedly lower rates of incidence, depending on the vice. Tell that to the folks who are dealing with epidemic levels of OD's and deaths due to cooking meth in rural areas . . .
Sometimes those rose-colored glasses ain't so pretty, just sayin' . . .
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Jun 12, 2017 17:53:47 GMT -5
Let's get back on topic, please. This thread is about the Kathy Griffin incident. Thanks. mmhmm, Politics Moderator Mmmmm......how'd that happen? 😀
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Green Eyed Lady
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Post by Green Eyed Lady on Jun 12, 2017 18:08:33 GMT -5
Dang it! I wanted in on this one....but I'll absolutely abide by the rules when reminded, I'm not sure this current discussion was all that far off-topic. It was a natural progression from what KG did to discuss changes in the way comedians have performed over the years. Progression from that is how everything changes over the years - morality for this particular example. It appeared to me to be all a part of the discussion and about the 100th reason why I shouldn't be a mod.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jun 12, 2017 18:27:43 GMT -5
Going to the drive-in or driving around with your date isn't a private setting. We're talking about situations where the dating couple could jump each other's bones right there in the heat of passion. I didn't know that! And couples who use birth control sometimes still get pregnant! I guess that means there's no difference between using a condom and not using a condom! <chuckle> I beg to differ, Virgil. Quite a few babies had their inception at drive-in movies and there's nothing to prevent a couple from driving to a very private location, pulling the car over, and ... well, doing what folks tend to do. Both are situations in which bones were jumped in the heat of passion. The difference then was more about disappearing if pregnancy resulted. Now, that's no longer done for the most part. I'm not saying I approve of teen pregnancies. I certainly don't. However, I'm not so naive as to believe they didn't happen with some regularity in the 50s, and even in the 30s and 40s. They just weren't visible as cover-ups were the norm.Your attempts at sarcasm don't work on me. It's really just a waste of keystrokes. Some of us know someone else who was raised as their mother's younger brother or sister. This occasionally occured before I was born in 1951 and probably continued after that year for a while. Spares the family a scandal. Screws up everyone in the family who are in the know. ETA: the above probably didn't happen to Kathy Griffin. .
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 12, 2017 18:28:36 GMT -5
Okay, folks, I asked that the thread go back to the topic. Further off-topic posts will be removed. The alternative would be the creation of a thread for the current off-topic discussion. If one of you would like to do that, I'll move the posts into it from this thread. Just let me know.
mmhmm, Politics Moderator
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 19:22:30 GMT -5
Plan A: Solidify street cred with Trump's severed head gag. Public will love it! Plan B: Convince skeptical public gag really wasn't so bad. Take a chill pill, people. Plan C: Cry. A lot. Blame Trump. Plan D: Call in favour from Bill Maher. Get him to say something that takes the focus off me. ....and 9 days later. Kathy who ? So right back to before the sick and stupid stunt... Kathy who?
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mmhmm
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Post by mmhmm on Jun 12, 2017 20:49:47 GMT -5
Dang it! I wanted in on this one....but I'll absolutely abide by the rules when reminded, I'm not sure this current discussion was all that far off-topic. It was a natural progression from what KG did to discuss changes in the way comedians have performed over the years. Progression from that is how everything changes over the years - morality for this particular example. It appeared to me to be all a part of the discussion and about the 100th reason why I shouldn't be a mod. Start a thread, GEL. I'll be happy to move the posts over. Just let me know.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jun 12, 2017 21:02:33 GMT -5
....and 9 days later. Kathy who ? So right back to before the sick and stupid stunt... Kathy who? She'd have gotten away with it if she was an actual gryphon. Especially if she'd been shot by a poacher.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2017 21:34:41 GMT -5
So right back to before the sick and stupid stunt... Kathy who? She'd have gotten away with it if she was an actual gryphon. Especially if she'd been shot by a poacher. You have no idea how much effort it took to NOT write a word that rhymes with "stunt" and starts with the letter "c", and is much more descriptive of the woman that did the vile image.
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