Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 19, 2016 13:41:45 GMT -5
Virgil, I think its important to note what lengths this guy is willing to go to set people up to get video on them. I think the term investibaitor might be too kind.
From the Wiki page -
Patrick Moran (2012)
On October 24, 2012 a video was released showing Patrick Moran, son of then-U.S. Congressman Jim Moran (D-VA), and a field director with his father's campaign, discussing a plan to cast fraudulent ballots, which was proposed to him by someone who posed as a fervent supporter of the campaign.[100] The person he was speaking with was a conservative activist with O'Keefe's Project Veritas, and was secretly recording the conversation.[101] Patrick Moran resigned from the campaign, saying he did not want to be a distraction during the election, stating:
"t no point have I, or will I ever endorse any sort of illegal or unethical behavior. At no point did I take this person seriously. He struck me as being unstable and joking, and for only that reason did I humor him. In hindsight, I should have immediately walked away, making it clear that there is no place in the electoral process for even the suggestion of illegal behavior, joking or not."[101]
Abbie Boudreau (2010)
In August 2010, O'Keefe planned a staged encounter with the CNN correspondent Abbie Boudreau, who was doing a documentary on the young conservative movement. He set up an appointment at his office in Maryland to discuss a video shoot.[76] Izzy Santa, executive director of Project Veritas, warned Boudreau that O'Keefe was planning to "punk" her on the boat by trying to seduce her—which he would film on hidden cameras.[76][77] Boudreau did not board the boat and soon left the area.[76][77]
CNN later published a 13–page plan written by O'Keefe mentor Ben Wetmore.[78] It listed props for the boat scheme, including pornography, sexual aids, condoms, a blindfold and "fuzzy" handcuffs.[76][77][79] When questioned by CNN, O'Keefe denied that he was going to follow the Wetmore plan, as he found parts of it inappropriate.[7
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe
Given the above, how can I or you possibly know whether the in person voter fraud was something proposed initially by a Project Veritas staffer or hire, or by the person who was filmed saying it?
I don't care if it was a staffer who proposed it. To me it's a no-brainer: you want "in" on the details of a scheme, you proactively express an interest in it. The only issue of consequence is: has the interview subject committed the fraud? As for "He struck me as being unstable and joking, and for only that reason did I humor him." What do you expect him to say? I can't attest to that interview, but if Mr. Foval et al. claim "we were only joking" in response to this video (and they almost certainly will): bull crap.
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NastyWoman
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Post by NastyWoman on Oct 19, 2016 14:23:36 GMT -5
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Oct 19, 2016 15:05:12 GMT -5
Virgil, I think its important to note what lengths this guy is willing to go to set people up to get video on them. I think the term investibaitor might be too kind.
From the Wiki page -
Patrick Moran (2012)
On October 24, 2012 a video was released showing Patrick Moran, son of then-U.S. Congressman Jim Moran (D-VA), and a field director with his father's campaign, discussing a plan to cast fraudulent ballots, which was proposed to him by someone who posed as a fervent supporter of the campaign.[100] The person he was speaking with was a conservative activist with O'Keefe's Project Veritas, and was secretly recording the conversation.[101] Patrick Moran resigned from the campaign, saying he did not want to be a distraction during the election, stating:
"t no point have I, or will I ever endorse any sort of illegal or unethical behavior. At no point did I take this person seriously. He struck me as being unstable and joking, and for only that reason did I humor him. In hindsight, I should have immediately walked away, making it clear that there is no place in the electoral process for even the suggestion of illegal behavior, joking or not."[101]
Abbie Boudreau (2010)
In August 2010, O'Keefe planned a staged encounter with the CNN correspondent Abbie Boudreau, who was doing a documentary on the young conservative movement. He set up an appointment at his office in Maryland to discuss a video shoot.[76] Izzy Santa, executive director of Project Veritas, warned Boudreau that O'Keefe was planning to "punk" her on the boat by trying to seduce her—which he would film on hidden cameras.[76][77] Boudreau did not board the boat and soon left the area.[76][77]
CNN later published a 13–page plan written by O'Keefe mentor Ben Wetmore.[78] It listed props for the boat scheme, including pornography, sexual aids, condoms, a blindfold and "fuzzy" handcuffs.[76][77][79] When questioned by CNN, O'Keefe denied that he was going to follow the Wetmore plan, as he found parts of it inappropriate.[7
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_O%27Keefe
Given the above, how can I or you possibly know whether the in person voter fraud was something proposed initially by a Project Veritas staffer or hire, or by the person who was filmed saying it?
I don't care if it was a staffer who proposed it. To me it's a no-brainer: you want "in" on the details of a scheme, you proactively express an interest in it. The only issue of consequence is: has the interview subject committed the fraud?
As for "He struck me as being unstable and joking, and for only that reason did I humor him." What do you expect him to say? I can't attest to that interview, but if Mr. Foval et al. claim "we were only joking" in response to this video (and they almost certainly will): bull crap. If you really care about the answer to that question you would find out if fraud was committed. Uncover and expose that. I have no idea about election laws, but many things can being talked about and aren't illegal until acted on. The Trump/Bush bus video for example. Not illegal to talk about groping someone. Only illegal if actually done.
My guess is you do not work in a position where it is customary to smile and nod when people say crazy things. Some jobs, like mine, and I would guess politicians probably hear crazy stuff more often than most. When dealing with paying customers or potential donors, supposed supporters, its expected to hear them out and if possible let them down gently. I can assure you, the multiple times I had to listen to a visitor speak about a conspiracy by organized medicine because of candy at the dentist, was not because I was deeply interested in the alleged scheme. Part of my duties is being polite.
Yes I can't speak to Mr. Foval. The camera angles and lighting were horrible. So there wasn't much film looking at Mr. Foval so the video watcher can judge whether the guy is trying to be sincere, selling a fish story, or possibly deranged or a conspiracy theorist. If Foval and the instigator do not actually rig an election using the talked about technique, it proves nothing except what was talked about. You cannot take the 6 minutes to a law enforcement agency and prove anything except you likely illegally filmed someone without their consent and Mr. Foval might bear watching.
That's it. Listen we can talk about how you stole a snow leopard from the zoo and killed it in your kitchen, but unless the law finds evidence to back that up, you won't be convicted of a crime, much less charged for one. Think of all the crazy snow leopard stuff you've posted on this board. Now imagine someone egged you on and published the video. Would that prove you believed Microsoft was run by snow leopards?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Oct 19, 2016 17:20:03 GMT -5
That video is similar with the ones claiming that Obamacare will have Death Panels which are going to deny medical attention to the elderly in order to get rid of them and control medical expenses.
Does voting fraud happen? Very much possible but not at the scale that some claim and not to the extent that would influence national elections
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Oct 19, 2016 18:13:33 GMT -5
If there's any election fraud it's the huge amount of mail in votes. Those should only be allowed in rare cases as in out of the country or in the hospital. I was actually encouraged to get a mail in vote. Normally I need to show up with my ID and that is how it should be. I'm feeling very concerned about this. I disagree with this. We've been voting by mail for over 20 years. It was not a piece of cake to get a mail in ballot. When we fill it out, we put it into a sealed envelope and out that into the mailing envelope. We have to sign the mailing envelope and our signature is checked against the signature on file. I know this because last election, someone decided that DH's signature didn't match the one on file and he had to go down with his id and sign a new signature card. I like the convenience. I also like being able to discuss things as we vote. I never want to go back to standing in line to vote. I think more people would vote if they could use mail in ballots. The real election fraud is the gerrymandering of districts.
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grumpyhermit
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Post by grumpyhermit on Oct 19, 2016 19:09:38 GMT -5
If there's any election fraud it's the huge amount of mail in votes. Those should only be allowed in rare cases as in out of the country or in the hospital. I was actually encouraged to get a mail in vote. Normally I need to show up with my ID and that is how it should be. I'm feeling very concerned about this. I disagree with this. We've been voting by mail for over 20 years. It was not a piece of cake to get a mail in ballot. When we fill it out, we put it into a sealed envelope and out that into the mailing envelope. We have to sign the mailing envelope and our signature is checked against the signature on file. I know this because last election, someone decided that DH's signature didn't match the one on file and he had to go down with his id and sign a new signature card. I like the convenience. I also like being able to discuss things as we vote. I never want to go back to standing in line to vote. I think more people would vote if they could use mail in ballots. The real election fraud is the gerrymandering of districts. I have such an irrational mistrust of mail in ballots. I actually have the opposite suspicion; not that they are over counted, but that they could so easily be "misplaced" and never tallied at all. I have always been lucky with my voting districts. In Maine I lived in little, tiny towns with a few thousand people. I think the most I ever stood in line was 15 minutes during a presidential election year. I have since moved to Connecticut, and either they have enough polling places, or all the people in my area just don't vote. I have never had to wait in line (though this will be my first presidential election since moving).
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 19, 2016 19:28:56 GMT -5
... I have such an irrational mistrust of mail in ballots. ... Good thing you aren't out here in Washington State. We have 100% by mail voting.
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Oct 19, 2016 20:26:21 GMT -5
My only complaint is that we have to put postage on the envelope. They should be postage paid.
I trust our local election people to do their jobs.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 19, 2016 21:02:14 GMT -5
Drop box. No postage. Even on the Politics board we can be YM-approved.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 19, 2016 21:23:31 GMT -5
I don't care if it was a staffer who proposed it. To me it's a no-brainer: you want "in" on the details of a scheme, you proactively express an interest in it. The only issue of consequence is: has the interview subject committed the fraud?
As for "He struck me as being unstable and joking, and for only that reason did I humor him." What do you expect him to say? I can't attest to that interview, but if Mr. Foval et al. claim "we were only joking" in response to this video (and they almost certainly will): bull crap. If you really care about the answer to that question you would find out if fraud was committed. Uncover and expose that. I have no idea about election laws, but many things can being talked about and aren't illegal until acted on. The Trump/Bush bus video for example. Not illegal to talk about groping someone. Only illegal if actually done.
My guess is you do not work in a position where it is customary to smile and nod when people say crazy things. Some jobs, like mine, and I would guess politicians probably hear crazy stuff more often than most. When dealing with paying customers or potential donors, supposed supporters, its expected to hear them out and if possible let them down gently. I can assure you, the multiple times I had to listen to a visitor speak about a conspiracy by organized medicine because of candy at the dentist, was not because I was deeply interested in the alleged scheme. Part of my duties is being polite.
Yes I can't speak to Mr. Foval. The camera angles and lighting were horrible. So there wasn't much film looking at Mr. Foval so the video watcher can judge whether the guy is trying to be sincere, selling a fish story, or possibly deranged or a conspiracy theorist. If Foval and the instigator do not actually rig an election using the talked about technique, it proves nothing except what was talked about. You cannot take the 6 minutes to a law enforcement agency and prove anything except you likely illegally filmed someone without their consent and Mr. Foval might bear watching.
That's it. Listen we can talk about how you stole a snow leopard from the zoo and killed it in your kitchen, but unless the law finds evidence to back that up, you won't be convicted of a crime, much less charged for one. Think of all the crazy snow leopard stuff you've posted on this board. Now imagine someone egged you on and published the video. Would that prove you believed Microsoft was run by snow leopards?
Mr. Foval is doing a lot more than just smiling and nodding. I'll grant you that without the complete footage, it isn't unthinkable that some of his comments are tongue-in-cheek, or that the three interview subjects are all talk and no action. How about you concede a little ground? Do you want to admit that your standard of proof is so strict that it's ostensibly impossible for any less-than-gargantuan organization to convince you fraud is occurring?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2016 5:50:45 GMT -5
Anybody who saw the DNC convention scandal unfold should know election fraud exists at some level. It doesn't really take a rocket surgeon to figure out throughout the history of the world the amount of corruption in politics, so it's human nature. When there's that much power involved there is going to be corruption. Just be glad it's mostly isolated to Democrats doing the plants at Republican candidates speeches to disrupt them and stuffing ballot boxes and not on the level of ancient Rome or something. My worry is this: How long before it moves up to that level?
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2016 9:00:15 GMT -5
Anybody who saw the DNC convention scandal unfold ... Anyone who saw a scandal doesn't have a good understanding of Democratic Party processes and the fact it is a private organization.
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Oct 20, 2016 9:16:25 GMT -5
If there's any election fraud it's the huge amount of mail in votes. Those should only be allowed in rare cases as in out of the country or in the hospital. I was actually encouraged to get a mail in vote. Normally I need to show up with my ID and that is how it should be. I'm feeling very concerned about this. I disagree with this. We've been voting by mail for over 20 years. It was not a piece of cake to get a mail in ballot. When we fill it out, we put it into a sealed envelope and out that into the mailing envelope. We have to sign the mailing envelope and our signature is checked against the signature on file. I know this because last election, someone decided that DH's signature didn't match the one on file and he had to go down with his id and sign a new signature card. I like the convenience. I also like being able to discuss things as we vote. I never want to go back to standing in line to vote. I think more people would vote if they could use mail in ballots. The real election fraud is the gerrymandering of districts. This year is the first time I voted by mail since my service time..due to medical reasons and my fear was that my signature stayed the same...I sign different ways..full..partial etc and who remembers how one signed that card a long time ago..glad to hear that they let u know if there is a problem...didn't think they checked those things till time to open the ballots and by that time it would be to late,,
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Oct 20, 2016 9:21:02 GMT -5
I disagree with this. We've been voting by mail for over 20 years. It was not a piece of cake to get a mail in ballot. When we fill it out, we put it into a sealed envelope and out that into the mailing envelope. We have to sign the mailing envelope and our signature is checked against the signature on file. I know this because last election, someone decided that DH's signature didn't match the one on file and he had to go down with his id and sign a new signature card. I like the convenience. I also like being able to discuss things as we vote. I never want to go back to standing in line to vote. I think more people would vote if they could use mail in ballots. The real election fraud is the gerrymandering of districts. I have such an irrational mistrust of mail in ballots. I actually have the opposite suspicion; not that they are over counted, but that they could so easily be "misplaced" and never tallied at all. I have always been lucky with my voting districts. In Maine I lived in little, tiny towns with a few thousand people. I think the most I ever stood in line was 15 minutes during a presidential election year. I have since moved to Connecticut, and either they have enough polling places, or all the people in my area just don't vote. I have never had to wait in line (though this will be my first presidential election since moving). can I ask where u live in Connecticut..am a CT yankee but living in Florida..son in Newington and I have lived Hamden, W aterbury, Bloomfield,Hartford and Manchester..still follow news there..
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dezailoooooo
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Post by dezailoooooo on Oct 20, 2016 9:24:23 GMT -5
My only complaint is that we have to put postage on the envelope. They should be postage paid. I trust our local election people to do their jobs. Did we.?can't remember..thought was postage paid...
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2016 9:37:08 GMT -5
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 20, 2016 11:49:12 GMT -5
I miss going up to the polling place at the church in Olympic Manor just to experience it all and then drop my ballot into the 'box'. The church ladies always had a bake sale too so you could reward yourself with something scrumptious on the way out. Oh well. Now the church ha been torn down and it's condos now.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2016 14:17:11 GMT -5
Anyone who saw a scandal doesn't have a good understanding of Democratic Party processes and the fact it is a private organization. Anyone who didn't see a scandal is being led around by the nose by their masters. ... I have knowledge of the system therefore can not be lead by my nose. I have posted specifics on why it wasn't a "scandal". What have you got?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 20, 2016 14:26:48 GMT -5
Anyone who saw a scandal doesn't have a good understanding of Democratic Party processes and the fact it is a private organization. Anyone who didn't see a scandal is being led around by the nose by their masters. That is one thing I will give to the GOP's credit, they ran the candidate who got the votes even though it was dangerous to do so. . stop right there. got the votes from who? Republicans? that should not be our concern, Ratchets.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 20, 2016 14:34:55 GMT -5
Anyone who didn't see a scandal is being led around by the nose by their masters. ... I have knowledge of the system therefore can not be lead by my nose. I have posted specifics on why it wasn't a "scandal". What have you got? It's not a scandal if your standards are low enough.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 20, 2016 14:40:43 GMT -5
I have knowledge of the system therefore can not be lead by my nose. I have posted specifics on why it wasn't a "scandal". What have you got? It's not a scandal if your standards are low enough. this is precisely the criticism the left is making over the groping scandal. you know that, right?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 20, 2016 14:51:50 GMT -5
It's not a scandal if your standards are low enough. this is precisely the criticism the left is making over the groping scandal. you know that, right? Yes.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2016 14:57:55 GMT -5
I have knowledge of the system therefore can not be lead by my nose. I have posted specifics on why it wasn't a "scandal". What have you got? It's not a scandal if your standards are low enough. And mine are in the gutter.
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Peace Of Mind
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Post by Peace Of Mind on Oct 20, 2016 15:08:17 GMT -5
If there's any election fraud it's the huge amount of mail in votes. Those should only be allowed in rare cases as in out of the country or in the hospital. I was actually encouraged to get a mail in vote. Normally I need to show up with my ID and that is how it should be. I'm feeling very concerned about this. I disagree with this. We've been voting by mail for over 20 years. It was not a piece of cake to get a mail in ballot. When we fill it out, we put it into a sealed envelope and out that into the mailing envelope. We have to sign the mailing envelope and our signature is checked against the signature on file. I know this because last election, someone decided that DH's signature didn't match the one on file and he had to go down with his id and sign a new signature card. I like the convenience. I also like being able to discuss things as we vote. I never want to go back to standing in line to vote. I think more people would vote if they could use mail in ballots. The real election fraud is the gerrymandering of districts. I agree and you can track your ballot on the internet when it was received. But I'm not the paranoid type usually. <Grrr! What happened to my words?!! > Meh. It wasn't that funny any way. <----- Now WTF?! Who's hacking into my account?
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Gardening Grandma
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Post by Gardening Grandma on Oct 20, 2016 15:12:28 GMT -5
Yes I'm glad it's being looked at. We can drop our ballots at a dropbox at the library (which I do) or at the courthouse - if you live in town. but what about seniors who aren't mobile? Not that 49 cents should be a deal breaker; it's the principle.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Oct 20, 2016 15:22:16 GMT -5
Yes I'm glad it's being looked at. We can drop our ballots at a dropbox at the library (which I do) or at the courthouse - if you live in town. but what about seniors who aren't mobile? Not that 49 cents should be a deal breaker; it's the principle. On the other hand, to get to a polling place required mobility and cost for gas. That being said, I do hope that they work out the little bugs on why it is problematical for prepaid postage. And BTW: Because of the ballot’s larger size, it will take more postage to return them by mail. Snohomish County officials said a mailed ballot will require $0.68 postage rather than the $0.46 — a single first class stamp — in the primary. Longest ballot in 10 years will cost you 68 cents to mail
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 24, 2016 15:33:45 GMT -5
OK, Opti . Part III is out: Watch 7 minutes of this and spin it for me.
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steff
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Post by steff on Oct 24, 2016 15:35:31 GMT -5
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dondub
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Post by dondub on Oct 24, 2016 15:44:51 GMT -5
That is just horrible using Donald Duck like that. If they had used Daisy they could have captured Trump grabbing her tail feathers!
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