I need some ideas.....

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

I am simply out of them.

Long story short, does anyone know where you'd get replacement financial documents from almost 20 years ago?

The long version.  My sister is in the middle of what is turning into a rather contentious divorce.  In the early 1990s (before she was married) she had quite a bit invested a 401K that she rolled earnings for 2 jobs into.  She left this job, left the earnings there and later rolled it into an IRA (before she was married).  She pulled $25K from that IRA for them to purchase their home, which was roughly a 13% downpayment.  Her STBX contributed nothing.

Fast forward 20+ years and they are splitting up assets.  As the first 13% of the house was paid with non-mingled assets, she gets paid that off the top of the sale of the house (which has appreciated about 100%).  However, she needs to show that that money came from her account.  Only problem is that her STBX went on a shredding binge and shredded every bit of evidence that my sister had about those early accounts.  He even shredded the single page in an old mortgage document package that showed their assets and where the down payment came from.  This is a significant amount of money, would amount to about $50K, for a former SAHM who is just fighting her way back into her previous 6 figure profession.  She has a foot in the door, but she's got a lot to prove and this divorce is not helping things there either.

Investment firms do not keep documents that long (the 2 we have called said around 7 years, so am guessing that this is standard).  The house has been remortgaged multiple times and the original bank that provided their mortgage no longer exists.  Her company that the 401K was at has been sold 3 times, and does not have info on an employee that was 3 companies and 25 years ago.  My only thought was old IRS documents as she would have likely received a 1099 (I think this form??) when she took the disbursement from the IRA.  

Other than this, I have nothing.  

[buystoys]

I don't know that the IRS would have actual copies of the documents after all this time, but it couldn't hurt to ask.  Did they have someone prepare their taxes that year?  The CPA or tax company may still have a copy.  Was her payroll done through ADP or a similar company?  Maybe they would have old payroll records she could use to show she contributed to the 401(k)/IRA alone? 

Not a lot of help.  If I can find out more, I'll post again.

Good luck!

ETA:  Did your sister ever have them e-mail EOY statements to her?  Does she have access to that e-mail account?  Maybe there's something in her old messages?  (OK.  I've had my primary personal use e-mail account since the very early 90's.  And there's some REALLY old stuff in my old mail.  )

[bookkeeper]

The situation is unfortunate.

The lesson for the rest of us is to start scanning financial documents. We bought two houses in 2014 and all the documents were provided digitally.  The info is saved to my home computer and back up.  DS is making the payments on one house and his girlfriend lives with him.  I am sure she contributes to the house payment.  Should the relationship end, and we hope not, I have the documentation about who paid what when the house was purchased. 

We had a friend involved in an estate battle with his siblings over farm property.  He farmed his mother's ground and had paid for significant improvements to the farm, but time had passed and he had thrown away any documentation that he had paid for the improvements on the property.  His siblings insisted that the farm be valued and divided in its current condition.  He battled the siblings in court and lost.  The IRS could not help him, they only had records 7 years back.

I as well have no solution.

[Tiny]

I would attempt to contact the original mortgage holder (disregard - I just read that the bank no longer exists)  and/or the attorney that assisted with the sale.
There's some chance the paper work is mouldering away in a banker box somewhere.

I live in the land of "mom and pop" banks (well, 20 years ago - it was all mom and pop banks). I strongly suspect the Savings and Loan that gave me my house loan 20 years ago - probably still has hardcopy documents somewhere. I also suspect the lawyer I used may have it too. Like in a box in the rafters of his house.

It's worth a shot.

[alabamagal]

Unless she has the 1099 with her income tax forms, I doubt you could get a copy anywhere else.  But I'm guessing the tax returns were shredded also.

This makes me glad I never got divorced and never planned to.  Of course when DH and I got married we were poor, just out of college, no assets and plenty of debt.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 13, 2016 17:40:22 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Unless she has the 1099 with her income tax forms, I doubt you could get a copy anywhere else.  But I'm guessing the tax returns were shredded also.

This makes me glad I never got divorced and never planned to.  Of course when DH and I got married we were poor, just out of college, no assets and plenty of debt.

All tax forms, except those for the last 7 years have been shredded.  Apparently you can get all your old tax forms from the IRS, for a cost (I think she said it was $50/year).  We are really counting on that 1099 being filed along with the tax forms.

She and her STBX were just starting out their career at the time.  My sister was a good YM'er and contributed to her 401K, and rolled it over as she changed jobs.  Her DH (who has a comparable work history until she became a SAHM) used his 401K as a piggy bank before they were married.  For awhile, he was using what remained of my sister's IRA as a piggy bank too, until she put her foot down.  After they were married, he's continued to use his as a piggy bank.....and the house as an ATM.  I thought my sister was a bit more financially savvy, but both of them are/were idiots.

[Works4me]

Hmmm - very interesting that he went on a shredding binge that destroyed evidence of her financial contributions. Maybe she can check with her attorney regarding the idea that he was planning for divorce and purposely destroyed documents that favored her. Did he keep anything that favors only him from that time period?

My other thought would be to go through their finances with a fine tooth comb and search for any/all ways she can benefit from the situation as it stands. Then she could either take what was best for her or use it to convince him to do the right thing by giving her what is hers. Quite if often people become more reasonable when they see what they stand to lose.

The other consideration is if we are talking about $50K, her loss would only be half of that - ie $25K incurred by splitting it with him. Attorney fees can reach that point very quickly. Can she look for other places to recoup the "loss?"

Finally, IMHO, men see divorce as being all about money. It's a battle with a winner and a loser. Women want to smooth it all over and hope that by giving in on money matters it will help. In the long run it does not.Reality is that years later he only remember what it "cost" him and she forever has to deal with the impact of settling financially.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

The other consideration is if we are talking about $50K, her loss would only be half of that - ie $25K incurred by splitting it with him. Attorney fees can reach that point very quickly. Can she look for other places to recoup the "loss?"


Not really.  That's what is sickening.  Despite the 2 of them having an income of nearly 1/4 million $$/year, they have very little in retirement.  My BIL has about $80K, my sister has about $100K of what remained of the IRA.  They are in their mid 50s.  No, they do not have any other investments, other than the house.  The house, when purchased was about $190K.  My sister put down the $25K.  Value now is roughly $410K and they owe $227K.


Finally, IMHO, men see divorce as being all about money. It's a battle with a winner and a loser. Women want to smooth it all over and hope that by giving in on money matters it will help. In the long run it does not.Reality is that years later he only remember what it "cost" him and she forever has to deal with the impact of settling financially.

Like I said, my sister has finally gotten herself back into her old profession, but she is very, VERY rusty and is incredibly lucky that someone took a chance on her.  But she is making less than 1/2 she made when she stepped out.  It's going to take some time before she gets to the point where she is making the sort of money she did before AND she still has 2 daughters left to raise.  Her STBX is already making noises about not providing for the kids any more than absolutely necessary.

The one thing that I suggested is that she go through old boxes to see if there isn't an errant document someplace.  I know that I'm not horribly organized, and have found things in places where I least expect them.  For instance, one of my old pension papers from my job in TX, I found in the box of stuff that I collected from the lab of the last job I left in KY.  I called to get some info, the form got stuck in the bottom desk drawer and I found it when I cleared out my desk 13 years later.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2016 17:27:27 GMT -5 bookkeeper said:

The lesson for the rest of us is to start scanning financial documents. We bought two houses in 2014 and all the documents were provided digitally.  The info is saved to my home computer and back up.  DS is making the payments on one house and his girlfriend lives with him.  I am sure she contributes to the house payment.  Should the relationship end, and we hope not, I have the documentation about who paid what when the house was purchased. 

Nope the lesson is people should stop viewing prenups as bad things.  I've read you can get a single lawyer to do a prenup that is basically a documentation of non-marital assets, both sign and get notarized.  Copies go to each person and lawyer files until marriage ends.  This document doesn't get shredded as it has a period longer than 7 years.  Just like the state still has their marriage certificate, birth, etc.  Wills, prenuptial, etc. get filed for life.

[alabamagal]

Prenups are good if there is a difference in net worth or significant net worth.

The IRS only keeps documents for 7 years also. I don't think they will help. Also it would seem to me that just having a withdrawal from a IRA would not be proof that the money was used as a downpayment just that it was withdrawn that year. You would have to have an agreement that the first 20% was hers. Doubt that ever existed. Think your sis is SOL.

[Deleted]

Oct 13, 2016 17:55:10 GMT -5 Works4me said:

Hmmm - very interesting that he went on a shredding binge that destroyed evidence of her financial contributions. Maybe she can check with her attorney regarding the idea that he was planning for divorce and purposely destroyed documents that favored her. Did he keep anything that favors only him from that time period?

I know that if people in a company destroy evidence and then gets sued, anything where the evidence was destroyed is construed against the defendant.  I learned this from an attorney who was abruptly dismissed by my last employer and the Admin diligently threw out everything in her office.  Then the attorney sued for age and sex discrimination.  Oops.  Not sure if this applies in a divorce.

Have you looked for a forensic accountant?  They specialize in tracking down lost or hidden records.  It may be worth it to pay their regular fee to pick their brain for an hour.

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 13, 2016 20:39:11 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Oct 13, 2016 17:55:10 GMT -5 Works4me said:

Hmmm - very interesting that he went on a shredding binge that destroyed evidence of her financial contributions. Maybe she can check with her attorney regarding the idea that he was planning for divorce and purposely destroyed documents that favored her. Did he keep anything that favors only him from that time period?

I know that if people in a company destroy evidence and then gets sued, anything where the evidence was destroyed is construed against the defendant.  I learned this from an attorney who was abruptly dismissed by my last employer and the Admin diligently threw out everything in her office.  Then the attorney sued for age and sex discrimination.  Oops.  Not sure if this applies in a divorce.

Have you looked for a forensic accountant?  They specialize in tracking down lost or hidden records.  It may be worth it to pay their regular fee to pick their brain for an hour.

This is what TD suggested, that judges take a dim view if documents are deliberately destroyed.

It might be worth it to pay for a consult with a forensic accountant.  I'll mention it to her....thanks.

[NastyWoman]

This is going to be tough. Sis may need a short strategy session with hre lawyer, if she can't obtain the 1099 that someone else mentioned. If she can't going after the money may cost more than it brings in. And she may be better off spending that money to get a better deal for her and the girls.

Now if STBX shredded only the page that had the contributions of the old mortgage paper and not the whole document, Sis may want to do some other checking herself. Like looking back at the last couple of years of income v. spending and look whether this makes any sense. If it doesn't maybe STBX has been syphoning off money.  It would have to be a significant amount for her to be able to spot it.

She also needs to realize that the divorce is only the beginning. Assuming that STBX has not been stashing away money but they were just spending it, her girls are used to a pretty upper middle class living (250k worth) and it will be hard to get them to accept that this is over. They may be on their own for college, no more nice big house, no car at 16, etc., etc. All of Sis' income will have to go to needs and retirement and that change may be hard for her too. She will need all her strenght so she needs to focus on what is really important (hence the strategy session suggested above).

[CCL]

How about the title company? Or the real estate broker?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 13, 2016 22:25:59 GMT -5 NastyWoman said:

This is going to be tough. Sis may need a short strategy session with hre lawyer, if she can't obtain the 1099 that someone else mentioned. If she can't going after the money may cost more than it brings in. And she may be better off spending that money to get a better deal for her and the girls.

Now if STBX shredded only the page that had the contributions of the old mortgage paper and not the whole document, Sis may want to do some other checking herself. Like looking back at the last couple of years of income v. spending and look whether this makes any sense. If it doesn't maybe STBX has been syphoning off money.  It would have to be a significant amount for her to be able to spot it.

She also needs to realize that the divorce is only the beginning. Assuming that STBX has not been stashing away money but they were just spending it, her girls are used to a pretty upper middle class living (250k worth) and it will be hard to get them to accept that this is over. They may be on their own for college, no more nice big house, no car at 16, etc., etc. All of Sis' income will have to go to needs and retirement and that change may be hard for her too. She will need all her strenght so she needs to focus on what is really important (hence the strategy session suggested above).

You are making assumptions that are not correct.  The kids did not get cars at 16.  Oldest nephew got his education via USAF. Niece got an $80k scholarship. House is worth about $400k, largely due to location, but it isn't huge....a little over 2000 sq ft.  In fact, they built first in a development where most houses are much larger than their's.  STBX likes his socializing, and it is not uncommon for him to have large bar tabs.

My sister didn't get a job in her profession until just this year after 7 years of looking.  In the meantime, she worked a lot of smaller jobs part time to bring in min wage income (Kohls, landscaping).  It wasn't until recently that her new job brought them to their current level of income.

STBX destroyed the single page of their original mortgage document that showed their assets from while she was still working, and where the down payment came from.  As he destroyed everything before 2008, I'm not sure what researching those documents after this date is going to do?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 13, 2016 22:41:24 GMT -5 CCL said:

How about the title company? Or the real estate broker?

I'll mention these to her, thanks.

[NastyWoman]

The Walk of the Penguin Mich I am glad my assumptions are incorrect. That should make life easier for your DSis. As someone who went through a late in life divorce, I know how tough it can be and we did not have any fights over money! 
On the other hand, I also know that you can recover from this and the fact that your DSis managed to get her foot back in the door of her old field could/should help her enormously. I wish her all the best, but if she is anything like you (I have always admired your determination to make the best of things and reinventing yourself when you could not go back to the lab) your sister will be ok.

[dee27]

Did your sister use a tax account at the time that the house was purchased? If she did, the account may have a copy of the document she needs. My DH laughs that I keep a copy of every federal tax form I have filed, but it saved me grief one year. Best of luck to your sister.

[Works4me]

Oct 13, 2016 22:59:00 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

STBX destroyed the single page of their original mortgage document that showed their assets from while she was still working, and where the down payment came from.  As he destroyed everything before 2008, I'm not sure what researching those documents after this date is going to do?

Depending on how good your sister's memory is for figures, she may want to re-create the document from memory and take it to mediation with her. If she or her attorney, can successfully Shiw that he destroyed documents that were favorable to her, well, her hand written re-creation may be acceptable. Rules of evidence can be different for a civil case. 

I really agree greed with the recommendation of a forensic accountant. I think it could be well worth paying an hour or two if time for a professional review of their finances. Has he been planning this divorce for any period of time?

Of course, she needs to cover all of this with her attorney in a strategy session. Hopefully, she chose the biggest shark in the tank.

[Deleted]

I think it's going to be really hard to prove those documents existed and that he willfully shredded them.   It's going to come down to her word against his and lawyers aren't cheap.   I know he's been a complete ass, but sitting down face to face with him with a mediator present and saying "you know I put X down from my pre-marital money" and just coming to an agreement between each other might be better that going to war with attorneys.    Is he the one pushing for the divorce? 

[justme]

Would the title company or whoever else helped on the mortgage have the closing documents? When the mortgage is recorded with the state is that info included?

[HoneyBBQ]

I can't imagine fighting over 25k from 20 years ago. That sounds like a nightmare. 

[tskeeter]

Oct 13, 2016 16:30:53 GMT -5 The Walk of the Penguin Mich said:

I am simply out of them.

Long story short, does anyone know where you'd get replacement financial documents from almost 20 years ago?

The long version.  My sister is in the middle of what is turning into a rather contentious divorce.  In the early 1990s (before she was married) she had quite a bit invested a 401K that she rolled earnings for 2 jobs into.  She left this job, left the earnings there and later rolled it into an IRA (before she was married).  She pulled $25K from that IRA for them to purchase their home, which was roughly a 13% downpayment.  Her STBX contributed nothing.

Fast forward 20+ years and they are splitting up assets.  As the first 13% of the house was paid with non-mingled assets, she gets paid that off the top of the sale of the house (which has appreciated about 100%).  However, she needs to show that that money came from her account.  Only problem is that her STBX went on a shredding binge and shredded every bit of evidence that my sister had about those early accounts.  He even shredded the single page in an old mortgage document package that showed their assets and where the down payment came from.  This is a significant amount of money, would amount to about $50K, for a former SAHM who is just fighting her way back into her previous 6 figure profession.  She has a foot in the door, but she's got a lot to prove and this divorce is not helping things there either.

Investment firms do not keep documents that long (the 2 we have called said around 7 years, so am guessing that this is standard).  The house has been remortgaged multiple times and the original bank that provided their mortgage no longer exists.  Her company that the 401K was at has been sold 3 times, and does not have info on an employee that was 3 companies and 25 years ago.  My only thought was old IRS documents as she would have likely received a 1099 (I think this form??) when she took the disbursement from the IRA.  

Other than this, I have nothing.  

Might be worth checking with the county office where real estate records are maintained.  (Often the county  recorder's office or the county clerk's office.). Some of them have copies of mortgage documents because those documents are evidence of a lender's interest in the property.  Who knows what might be in the file.

[alabamagal]

The problem is, even if you can find records, the records will not reflect that it was "her" money and not "their" money, especially if they were married.  The real estate records will show that it was titled to both.

[tskeeter]

Oct 14, 2016 14:06:13 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

The problem is, even if you can find records, the records will not reflect that it was "her" money and not "their" money, especially if they were married.  The real estate records will show that it was titled to both.

It's a long shot.  But, I repeat.  Who knows what might be in the file.  When DW requested documentation of her grandfather's name change,  the courts also sent a copy of her grandfather's naturalization papers.

[Deleted]

Let me throw out another thought. I'm a bit late but I drove 400+ miles today and we're finally at our destination!

When X and I divorced, we hammered out an agreement with our lawyers as to how property would be divided. He provided the down payment on the marital home so he wanted 60% of the proceeds. I said OK. No one wanted documentation. This was NJ in 1997 but in general, I think most courts will accept a reasonable settlement put together by consenting adults. Would your BIL accept a settlement based on your sister having put up the down payment from her 401(k)? If he's OK with it you may not need the paper trail. How badly does BIL want the divorce?

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 14, 2016 21:04:43 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

Let me throw out another thought. I'm a bit late but I drove 400+ miles today and we're finally at our destination!

When X and I divorced, we hammered out an agreement with our lawyers as to how property would be divided. He provided the down payment on the marital home so he wanted 60% of the proceeds. I said OK. No one wanted documentation. This was NJ in 1997 but in general, I think most courts will accept a reasonable settlement put together by consenting adults. Would your BIL accept a settlement based on your sister having put up the down payment from her 401(k)? If he's OK with it you may not need the paper trail. How badly does BIL want the divorce?

Not a bad idea, Athena.  BIL wants the divorce pretty badly.  I'll toss this idea at her next time I talk to her.

I'm glad you made it ok.  I hope your DH is doing ok too.

[Deleted]

I HIGHLY recommend a mediated settlement. X and I worked ours out with our lawyers and X's Aunt (she was there to hold his hand but both attorneys spoke very highly of her.) we took it to court and the judge made sure we both had the mental capacity to agree to it and weren't under duress to sign it, and he signed the decree after thanking us for saving the resources of the court system by working it out privately. I'd read an excellent book on divorce mediation called "Between Love and Hate" and I think it's still in print. It emphasizes setting priorities so you get what's important to you rather than saying, for example, "He had the affair so I get the sterling silver".

[The Walk of the Penguin Mich]

Oct 15, 2016 7:40:45 GMT -5 @athena53 said:

I HIGHLY recommend a mediated settlement. X and I worked ours out with our lawyers and X's Aunt (she was there to hold his hand but both attorneys spoke very highly of her.) we took it to court and the judge made sure we both had the mental capacity to agree to it and weren't under duress to sign it, and he signed the decree after thanking us for saving the resources of the court system by working it out privately. I'd read an excellent book on divorce mediation called "Between Love and Hate" and I think it's still in print. It emphasizes setting priorities so you get what's important to you rather than saying, for example, "He had the affair so I get the sterling silver".

I seriously doubt if a mediated settlement will work.  My BIL is after the guns my dad left my sister, and the family home that she inherited a portion of.  He is balking about paying child support for his 18 year old daughter who is in HS, and is deliberately running up his credit card (entertaining his squeeze) thinking my sister is going to have to pay half.  

This is just the stuff off the top of my head......

[Works4me]

I am so sorry to hear that your sister is going through this. My one question/recommendation is does she have the best divorce attorney in her area? She needs the one that is known as the shark.

I am so glad she has you in her corner.

Good luck and Godspeed.