Trump's unpaid bills- business as usual for the bankruptee

[Deleted]

I have a friend who grew up in AC and her father worked carpet laying in the casino who tells this story. I honestly don't know how she will vote? She really hates him, but I don't see her voting Hillary either? 

[happyhoix]

I worked for a guy who was like this for a while.

He got a charge out of seeing how much he could short change the vendors. If the contracted price was 10,000, he would short pay 8900 and ignore the rest. Or he would tell the vendor that he wouldn't pay the full price unless the vendor did some free work for him on the side - he got his whole basement converted into an entertainment room with the big screen, bar, fancy sound system, etc. - all from threatening to with hold payments on work contracts.

What finally got him fired was how he was caught falsifying documents in order to overcharge one of our customers. The customer threatened to sue, and when our company lawyers came to talk to my boss (our facility manager) he couldn't produce the documents to back up his extra charges. We settled with the customer and then he was fired. (He made up the charges in order to inflate the facility income so that his bonus would be bigger).

Petty man, thin skinned, prone to temper tantrums, thought he was the finest, smartest human being who ever strode the earth. Fortunately, I only had to work with him for a short time. Imagine having that kind of sleaze ball as our POTUS.

 

[Deleted]

Insane how Back To The Future II nailed it:

"Of course, in the movie, Biff uses the profits from his 27-story casino (the Trump Plaza Hotel, completed in 1984, is 37 floors, by the way) to help shake up the Republican Party, before eventually assuming political power himself, helping transform Hill Valley, California, into a lawless, dystopian wasteland, where hooliganism reigns, dissent is quashed, and wherein Biff encourages every citizen to call him “America’s greatest living folk hero.”

www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/21/how-back-to-the-future-predicted-trump.html

[OldCoyote]

At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

So you point is that Trump "personally" screwed these people out of their money?

Like in Trump "personally" screwed a dishwasher out of their money?  All these individuals, Why did n't they go to the labor relations board??

Me thinks that this article maybe not overly accurate,  Did you ever hire an attorney that didn't get their money up front??

Another point, You can sue all you want, But if you don't have it coming to you, guess what?

Ever month I get bills where I am being overcharged, do you think I pay these? 

[zibazinski]

Nothing of course on Hillarys thievery.

[OldCoyote]

Ratchets, good to see you!!!!

[OldCoyote]

It is part of business Demi, You know it, I know it.

It does not make it any easier, But that is the way it is!!!!!!

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2016 6:42:13 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

It is part of business Demi, You know it, I know it.

It does not make it any easier, But that is the way it is!!!!!!

Are you advocating this as normal business practice? Or saying we all have to deal with dishonest scumbags at some point in doing business? ... 

[OldCoyote]

OK, out of the Billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that Trumps Empire pays out  What percentage ever ends up in court?

If he didn't pay legitimate bills, He would have no suppliers selling to him, NO supplies, NO business! 

[Deleted]

Like i said, i heard this from construction persons long before i read this article.

There are literally tons of contractors out there... i guess he just moves on to the next one.


"experts said some unsecured creditors — investors, contractors, and vendors — received pennies on the dollar of what they were owned. It was a scenario that critics say showed the darker side of Trump's reputation as a sharp negotiator.

"He had stiffed hundreds of local businesses and left them with financial claims that they would never recover," Perskie said. "He put the casinos through the bankruptcy proceedings and left town. And he left in a very different aura than he came."

"There are a lot of small-business people and medium-sized business people who got paid 20, 10, 5 cents on the dollar for their investments with Trump," he said. "They struggled in the wake of it. They can't go brag on TV that they did the right thing." 

www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/10/trumps_controversial_time_in_ac_under_new_scrutiny_with_presidential_run.html

"He’s the biggest [jerk] I’ve ever known. ... There’s nothing nice I can say about him. He hurt so many people,” said Phillip Sternberg, a former Trump investor who was part of a committee appointed by shareholders to negotiate with Trump during one of his bankruptcies. “He bankrupted families that were two- and three-generation electricians, plumbers.”

www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2015/09/26/donald-trump-rode-casino-wave-atlantic-city-leaving-bankruptcies-and-angry-creditors-his-wake/b1sl0EADDtgm2rGcoAz3UK/story.html

[OldCoyote]

Jun 11, 2016 5:30:04 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Jun 11, 2016 0:17:51 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

So you point is that Trump "personally" screwed these people out of their money?

Like in Trump "personally" screwed a dishwasher out of their money?  All these individuals, Why did n't they go to the labor relations board??

Me thinks that this article maybe not overly accurate,  Did you ever hire an attorney that didn't get their money up front??

Another point, You can sue all you want, But if you don't have it coming to you, guess what?

Ever month I get bills where I am being overcharged, do you think I pay these? 

It is a pattern of behavior OC- Trump corporate behavior, set by the man in charge himself.  I've done work for people and companies like this and it's miserable. and getting paid is like pulling teeth.

I have hired attorneys who don't get paid upfront, yes.  My own corporate lawyer gets his annual clerk's fee upfront and a small retainer and that is it.  If I use him he sends me a bill.  The attorney I just used in NH did not charge upfront either.  I'd never done business with him before, he came recommended by my regular attorney in this state. 

Trump doesn't settle lawsuits easily or without cause.  He plays hardball- which in and of itself is not a bad thing at all.  The fact that he settled these says something.  This article does not even get into the bankruptcies where yes, he screwed a lot of people.

I have no doubt that in person Trump can be enchanting and magnanimous.  I'm sure he is a wonderful host at his resorts.  His loyal butler at Mar al Lago is a fan for life and very well taken care of.  However he bulldozes over whomever else he can, just as he did his more genteel political opposition in the primaries.  That is how he operates in real life.  Dastardly Donald, the dastard rat bastard.

Lets see here out of the Billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that Trumps Empire pays out, and the thousands of employees or suppliers involved.

They can only come up with 60 cases of discontent   The so call "screwed employee's, Why didn't they take their grievance to the labor relations boards,  unless the LB's said they have no case!!

If you stiff an attorney, do think they are just going idly stand by??  

MSN now there is an unbiased form of so called news.

[OldCoyote]

Jun 11, 2016 7:16:18 GMT -5 oped said:

Like i said, i heard this from construction persons long before i read this article.

There are literally tons of contractors out there... i guess he just moves on to the next one.


"experts said some unsecured creditors — investors, contractors, and vendors — received pennies on the dollar of what they were owned. It was a scenario that critics say showed the darker side of Trump's reputation as a sharp negotiator.

"He had stiffed hundreds of local businesses and left them with financial claims that they would never recover," Perskie said. "He put the casinos through the bankruptcy proceedings and left town. And he left in a very different aura than he came."

"There are a lot of small-business people and medium-sized business people who got paid 20, 10, 5 cents on the dollar for their investments with Trump," he said. "They struggled in the wake of it. They can't go brag on TV that they did the right thing." 

www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/10/trumps_controversial_time_in_ac_under_new_scrutiny_with_presidential_run.html

"He’s the biggest [jerk] I’ve ever known. ... There’s nothing nice I can say about him. He hurt so many people,” said Phillip Sternberg, a former Trump investor who was part of a committee appointed by shareholders to negotiate with Trump during one of his bankruptcies. “He bankrupted families that were two- and three-generation electricians, plumbers.”

www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2015/09/26/donald-trump-rode-casino-wave-atlantic-city-leaving-bankruptcies-and-angry-creditors-his-wake/b1sl0EADDtgm2rGcoAz3UK/story.html

Do you know what a lien is for? 

[Deleted]

60 lawsuits... 100s of liens, judgements etc... 

[Deleted]

Jun 11, 2016 7:20:36 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

Jun 11, 2016 7:16:18 GMT -5 oped said:

Like i said, i heard this from construction persons long before i read this article.

There are literally tons of contractors out there... i guess he just moves on to the next one.


"experts said some unsecured creditors — investors, contractors, and vendors — received pennies on the dollar of what they were owned. It was a scenario that critics say showed the darker side of Trump's reputation as a sharp negotiator.

"He had stiffed hundreds of local businesses and left them with financial claims that they would never recover," Perskie said. "He put the casinos through the bankruptcy proceedings and left town. And he left in a very different aura than he came."

"There are a lot of small-business people and medium-sized business people who got paid 20, 10, 5 cents on the dollar for their investments with Trump," he said. "They struggled in the wake of it. They can't go brag on TV that they did the right thing." 

www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/10/trumps_controversial_time_in_ac_under_new_scrutiny_with_presidential_run.html

"He’s the biggest [jerk] I’ve ever known. ... There’s nothing nice I can say about him. He hurt so many people,” said Phillip Sternberg, a former Trump investor who was part of a committee appointed by shareholders to negotiate with Trump during one of his bankruptcies. “He bankrupted families that were two- and three-generation electricians, plumbers.”

www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2015/09/26/donald-trump-rode-casino-wave-atlantic-city-leaving-bankruptcies-and-angry-creditors-his-wake/b1sl0EADDtgm2rGcoAz3UK/story.html

Do you know what a lien is for? 

Ever heard of using bankruptcy for lien avoidance? 

[OldCoyote]

The lien still give some protection, 

beside that do you really think that if Trump Empire was really that bad at paying contractors, 

That they would continue to line up to do work for him?? Do you think all contractors are that stupid??

[OldCoyote]

Then again, Out of the Thousands of businesses that deal with the Trump Empire They can only find 60 cases, Many of them questionable!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

The original quote actually says 3500 lawsuits in the paragraph that oc didn't bother to add... 

[zibazinski]

Forget it. They're all slobbering over Hillary.

[Deleted]

Jun 10, 2016 5:47:08 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

As a small businessman I found particular empathy for these people who were screwed by the Donald and his companies. We just got paid 38K on a 64K bill because someone went all Chapter 7 and left us all holding the bag- just like the Donald does with regularity. :

Donald Trump often portrays himself as a savior of the working class who will "protect your job." But a USA TODAY NETWORK analysis found he has been involved in more than 3,500 lawsuits over the past three decades — and a large number of those involve ordinary Americans, like the Friels, who say Trump or his companies have refused to pay them.

At least 60 lawsuits, along with hundreds of liens, judgments, and other government filings reviewed by the USA TODAY NETWORK, document people who have accused Trump and his businesses of failing to pay them for their work. Among them: a dishwasher in Florida. A glass company in New Jersey. A carpet company. A plumber. Painters. Forty-eight waiters. Dozens of bartenders and other hourly workers at his resorts and clubs, coast to coast. Real estate brokers who sold his properties. And, ironically, several law firms that once represented him in these suits and others.

The actions in total paint a portrait of Trump’s sprawling organization frequently failing to pay small businesses and individuals, then sometimes tying them up in court and other negotiations for years. In some cases, the Trump teams financially overpower and outlast much smaller opponents, draining their resources. Some just give up the fight, or settle for less; some have ended up in bankruptcy or out of business altogether.

www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/usa-today-exclusive-hundreds-allege-donald-trump-doesn%e2%80%99t-pay-his-bills/ar-AAgR9h6

[swamp]

Jun 11, 2016 7:26:45 GMT -5 OldCoyote said:

The lien still give some protection, 

beside that do you really think that if Trump Empire was really that bad at paying contractors, 

That they would continue to line up to do work for him?? Do you think all contractors are that stupid??

A lien gets you paid 50 cents on the dollar in bankruptcy.  If that.  It may get discharged completely.  

[swamp]

I find it frightening that this guys idea of negotiations is to stiff the other party.  

Reneging on US debt will trash our economy. 

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

First, there's no history whatsoever of Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy.

Donald Trump has owned, or had an ownership interest in more than 500 business entities.  Four of them declared bankruptcy. In the first bankruptcy, Trump did have some personal obligations which he was able to meet by selling the Trump Shuttle and Trump Princess Yacht. The rest of the debt then belonged to the business. 

Lesson for the rest of us: never mix business and personal finances. I do not give personal guarantees, and you shouldn't either. If my businesses could not qualify on their own merits, there's probably a good reason for it, and they shouldn't take on the debt.

None of his investors lost more money than Carl Icahn. He got slaughtered:

www.forbes.com/sites/debtwire/2015/08/18/a-trip-down-donald-trumps-bankruptcy-memory-lane/#16a917d275dd

2009 when the global recession triggered Trump’s fourth trip through Chapter 11. This time the process resulted in Trump himself stepping away from the properties as his lenders, led by Carl Icahn, took over. Even the billionaire activist investor couldn’t save the ship, however, and Trump Entertainment filed for bankruptcy again last year. This time The Donald was only a belligerent bystander.



Mr. Trump sued his former company to clear up confusion over the “real” Trump properties, seeking to remove his name from the crumbling Trump Taj Mahal and Trump Plaza because the latest bankruptcy allegedly damaged his brand. A bankruptcy judge held off the suit, but the ultimate restructuring plan left Icahn with only the Trump Taj Mahal – the Trump Marina was sold to the Golden Nugget, while Trump Plaza shut down in September 2014 after it was unable to find any buyers – and cut the company’s debt load from $285 million to $82 million.

What does Icahn think of Trump? He endorsed him.

www.msnbc.com/msnbc/carl-icahn-endorses-donald-trump

But more to the point, tough shit if you didn't get paid. Happens sometimes when you extend credit. 

www.creditslips.org/creditslips/2015/08/donald-trump-speaks-the-truth.html

Let's start with the facts. Donald Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy. But companies that he owns have filed for Chapter 11 four times. The mere fact of these filings is somehow imputed to be a personal failing of Donald Trump. I have never heard anyone suggest that the filings were because of Trump's bad management...And indeed, how, much, if at all, was Trump involved in the management of the companies? I wouldn't be shocked if he was basically licensing his name.


In any event, Trump's response about his companies' bankruptcy filings is "what's the big deal? I took advantage of the law. So do lots of people." (My paraphrase.)



You know what? He's right. Bankruptcy is a background term to every contract. It's an embedded option. Lenders price for it.

This is old news to bankruptcy scholars, even if it still shocks some people.

(Sanctity of contract, they wail, forgetting that contracts are written against the backdrop of bankruptcy!) Trump had every right to file his companies for bankruptcy, and no one should weep for his lenders having lost money. They were sophisticated parties ("sharks" he called them, but that's a bit harsh, I'd just say "consenting adults")

who presumably priced for Trump's bankruptcy risk and had diversified portfolios. Frankly, Trump would be a fool if he hadn't filed for bankruptcy.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Jun 11, 2016 11:14:13 GMT -5 swamp said:

I find it frightening that this guys idea of negotiations is to stiff the other party.  

Reneging on US debt will trash our economy. 

Yeah. You're probably right. We should go back to the idea of debtor's prison.

I'm for personal responsibility. A borrower doesn't have fiduciary. A lender does. Obviously, these lenders thought it a good risk. Probably because like the entire planet, they didn't see 2009 coming.  Lenders still regard Trump's companies a good risk.

There are a LOT of things I don't like about Donald Trump, but I'll defend him to the death on bankruptcies. I should have done it myself a LOOOOONG time ago. I'd have been out of debt in 90 days instead of 7 years of two jobs.  They got me once. Never again. I'm not going to stand there like an idiot holding the bag because of an economic downturn or anything else. Next time I will definitely be "using the laws of the country" and f*** 'em.

[Shooby]

Trump's so called flaws pale in comparison to the corrupt, dishonest, lying Hillary.  Soooo, whateves.

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2016 20:30:59 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

First, there's no history whatsoever of Donald Trump declaring bankruptcy.

Donald Trump has owned, or had an ownership interest in more than 500 business entities. 

that's fucking stupid.  seriously.  even Buffet has not done that.

no wonder he sucks.  not enough attention on what he does.

[billisonboard]

Let's start with the facts. Donald Trump has never filed for personal bankruptcy. But companies that he owns have filed for Chapter 11 four times. . ...

Hmmmm. "Donald Trump has never made a dime. But companies he owned have made money." Or is it personally responsible for success, businesses responsible for failure?

[djAdvocate]

Jun 11, 2016 20:37:29 GMT -5 Shooby said:

Trump's so called flaws pale in comparison to the corrupt, dishonest, lying Hillary.  Soooo, whateves.

vice versa, imo.  i think Hillary is vastly better than Trump "comparatively speaking".

the difference, imo, is that Hillary thinks her flaws are something to be hidden, and Trump is utterly shameless about his flaws.  and i admire the shamelessness.  i really do.  not everyone can call a wart a beauty mark with confidence. 

[djAdvocate]

Jun 12, 2016 4:36:45 GMT -5 deminmaine said:

Jun 11, 2016 20:35:07 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Yeah. You're probably right. We should go back to the idea of debtor's prison.

I'm for personal responsibility. A borrower doesn't have fiduciary. A lender does. Obviously, these lenders thought it a good risk. Probably because like the entire planet, they didn't see 2009 coming.  Lenders still regard Trump's companies a good risk.

There are a LOT of things I don't like about Donald Trump, but I'll defend him to the death on bankruptcies. I should have done it myself a LOOOOONG time ago. I'd have been out of debt in 90 days instead of 7 years of two jobs.  They got me once. Never again. I'm not going to stand there like an idiot holding the bag because of an economic downturn or anything else. Next time I will definitely be "using the laws of the country" and f*** 'em.

Sometimes bankruptcy is unavoidable, and that is what provisions for it are there for.  Perhaps you should have declared bankruptcy, I have no idea.  However you are more experienced now.  There should be no "next time" for you.

I know of what I speak.  The 2008 downturn nearly got us.  And by nearly got, I don't mean bankruptcy.  I mean things were getting very tight, money was running low, and the future did not look bright.  I put the physical property up for sale and started to put in place plans for an orderly exit to business.  When we got an offer on the property it was so low as to make me sick.  But it would have been adequate to cover the expenses required.  I would have closed my doors whole, with all of my vendors and employees paid, and even a little jingle in my pocket- and certainly no out of pocket expense.

Luckily, it did not come to that.  In the proverbial nick of time I landed a couple of nice contracts, rejected the prospective buyers lowball offer and kept on truckin'.  But it was close.  And my point is- it did not require bankruptcy- I could see the writing on the wall and make plans.  Many business bankruptcies (for small businesses anyway) occur because people stay in it to long, and they are playing with other people's money.  Not cool.

Anyway, I agree with you on personal guarantees and being tied to the shop like an anchor.  I don't do it either.  I made a decision long ago that my house was mine (or my wife's ) and that I was not going to be one of those rags to riches to rags stories.  That does not require screwing over other people either.

BTW, I rejected a half million dollar contract a few months ago because it didn't smell right.  As I wrote above, most people we deal with are quite ethical- I believe most businessmen are.  But the few that aren't are snakes- legal crooks- and it is best to just avoid them in the first place.

Which is why I would NOT enter into contract with one Donald J. Trump.

i once did a deal with this guy named J. D(*d)%.  he was an utter shark.  he screwed me down to basically zero profit on the job then took my product, keystoned it, sold it to his customer, and then, when his customer had trouble, he refused to service it.  i refused to do business with that SOB ever again.  later i found out that he f(*ked his wife over, and all of his employees when he sold the business.  scumbag to the end.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Actually, in reading into the details of the bankruptcy case it appears that in the case of the Trump Taj Mahal Casino, the lenders basically did it to themselves- which frankly isn't that hard to believe.  They were so insistent that their terms be met in the middle of the financial crisis, that they left the business (in which Trump was basically a by-stander with no management control) with no other option.  Again, I don't have the highest regard for Trump, but lenders are well below Trump and somewhere just above Hillary.

[OldCoyote]

I have dealt with more than my share of bad accounts and bankruptcy.  If there is no money, there just is no money,  you just move on, there is better thing down the road.

If I was truly screwed meaning, that they had the money but just didn't pay, O.C. will not only get even I will get ahead!! 

Just wait a little while, so your name is not fresh in the memory,  The purpose is not to put them out of business,

But to keep them in business, starving!     Just kidding of course!