Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2016 11:42:18 GMT -5
I'll offer my own advice, coyote: - Have a good product or service.
- Abandon all moral principles; the real world has no use for them, nor can the majority of people distinguish them from bigotry when they pertain to privileged classes.
- When belligerent customers of a privileged legal class demand service, lie through your teeth, or, barring that, urinate in their cake batter and take their money with a smile.
- Engage in whatever perverse behaviour suits you, lobby the government long and hard, and one day you too may qualify for your own privileged status, complete with Hollywood endorsement, grade school curriculum, and message board apology club.
Those are the lessons to be learned from a little bakery in Oregon. Well, if we're going that way.... 1. If you are going to open a business, FOLLOW THE LAW! 2. If someone complains that you are not following the law, DON'T publish their private information opening them up to threats and harassment. - If you can't follow the law, don't open a business.
- If you want to put businesses that refuse to serve you out of business, buy a law that makes it illegal for businesses not to serve you.
- Be a jerk. Get rich quick.
It turns out there were a lot of lessons that came out of this.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2016 11:44:08 GMT -5
Yes, like: 1. If you are going to proclaim Christian beliefs, it would be considered good form to actually LIVE them.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2016 11:45:49 GMT -5
Pretty sure it's not the same Greg. Ah. OK. Good to know.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2016 11:48:13 GMT -5
Yes, like: 1. If you are going to proclaim Christian beliefs, it would be considered good form to actually LIVE them. 1. Don't lecture people if you have no clue what you're talking about.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Oct 9, 2016 11:50:43 GMT -5
What part of publishing someone's private information to encourage harassment against them comes from Christian belief? I missed that part when I was growing up, but maybe it was taught in your church.
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Virgil Showlion
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[b]leones potest resistere[/b]
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Oct 9, 2016 12:08:51 GMT -5
What part of publishing someone's private information to encourage harassment against them comes from Christian belief? I missed that part when I was growing up, but maybe it was taught in your church. Presuming they knew how far it would go, it wasn't a Christian thing to do. But that's a big presumption. If their intent was simply to get society to shame and rebuke the plaintiffs for filing a lawsuit, I find no fault with that. Social pressure is a powerful tool. It's unfortunate we live in an era where it can be magnified a thousandfold beyond what is appropriate and necessary. The bakers knew what they knew and what their motivations were. We don't. It's between them and God.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 9, 2016 13:16:01 GMT -5
I will also point out As a white senior male, there is nothing that I can be discriminated against,. lucky you. i think you are wrong, btw, but i am not going to give you the example i was thinking of.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 3:56:10 GMT -5
I agree. I don't celebrate it's closure either. All my applause upthread was for the ruling. And while agree that this wasn't the best outcome and yes, the bigotry does "yet live"... It's wounded and weakened. (but you know what they say about wounded animals... well... the same goes for bigots) Is it really wounded and weakened? I'm not a bigot nor do I care who marries whom. I would have made the cake without an issue and wished the couple well. I'm saying that so what I say next doesn't get me accused of being a bigot! If I were a bigot, I have just learned what being open with my reasons would be. All I'm going to do now is either come up with seemingly valid reasons why I can't make the cake or better, make the cake and totally screw it up. Oops, forgot the sugar! Or something like that I don't think they went after these people to actually have a cake made. They were out for blood and now these people lost their livelihoods all over a cake. So that has taught me to respect my principals but be smart about it. It's "wounded" in that they (the bigots) now know there will be consequences when their bigotry in action is proven. That makes them "dangerous" because now they will find ways to hide their bigoted actions... hoping no one sees a pattern.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 4:01:22 GMT -5
I'll offer some advice for you, O.C.: 1. Have a good product or service. 2. Maximize revenue by selling to everyone who wants to buy from you. 3. Don't get stuck with legal costs and sanctions when the simple act of NOT being a bigot (and breaking the law because of it) would have prevented them. At least those seem to be the lessons of the bakery case. I'll offer my own advice, coyote: - Have a good product or service.
- Abandon all moral principles; the real world has no use for them, nor can the majority of people distinguish them from bigotry when they pertain to privileged classes.
- When belligerent customers of a privileged legal class demand service, lie through your teeth, or, barring that, urinate in their cake batter and take their money with a smile.
- Engage in whatever perverse behaviour suits you, lobby the government long and hard, and one day you too may qualify for your own privileged status, complete with Hollywood endorsement, grade school curriculum, and message board apology club.
Those are the lessons to be learned from a little bakery in Oregon. Ummm... how could you possibly learn "principle 2" or "principle 3" from this ruling? They "abandon[ed] all moral principles" when they refused to follow the law AND refused to treat a fellow human being with dignity and respect. People wanting to buy a cake aren't being belligerent by going into a bakery to buy a cake that the bakery sells.... and urinating in their cake would be a violation of pretty much every health code I have ever read.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2016 4:04:26 GMT -5
What part of publishing someone's private information to encourage harassment against them comes from Christian belief? I missed that part when I was growing up, but maybe it was taught in your church. I was gonna ask what part of DISOBEYING the laws of man comes from Christian belief... but your question was a good one too.
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Miss Tequila
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Post by Miss Tequila on Oct 10, 2016 5:47:32 GMT -5
Is it really wounded and weakened? I'm not a bigot nor do I care who marries whom. I would have made the cake without an issue and wished the couple well. I'm saying that so what I say next doesn't get me accused of being a bigot! If I were a bigot, I have just learned what being open with my reasons would be. All I'm going to do now is either come up with seemingly valid reasons why I can't make the cake or better, make the cake and totally screw it up. Oops, forgot the sugar! Or something like that I don't think they went after these people to actually have a cake made. They were out for blood and now these people lost their livelihoods all over a cake. So that has taught me to respect my principals but be smart about it. It's "wounded" in that they (the bigots) now know there will be consequences when their bigotry in action is proven. That makes them "dangerous" because now they will find ways to hide their bigoted actions... hoping no one sees a pattern. I missed your last line about the wounded animal. I think we agree on that. Im not a bigot, I'm a capitalist. I can't think of an issue that I would die on over baking a cake. I guess if I suspected someone of terrorist ties? But if I did have a moral issue I wouldn't be dumb enough to say that's why I can't make the cake or whatever it is the person/group wanted me to provide. I think only stupid people will state their reasons For me, I would rather let the people be honest so that we know who the assholes are. I don't know why someone would want someone to bake them a wedding cake knowing that person is 100% against it. I would move on and give my business to someone else. Then trash the place all over the interne t
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 10, 2016 8:50:39 GMT -5
I will also point out As a white senior male, there is nothing that I can be discriminated against, ... Sure there is. As a white senior male, you fall under a number of classes under state and federal law where businesses and employers (though that would not apply to you right now as you are your own employer) can discriminate against you: Arizona public accomodation laws:Public Accommodation Discrimination The following Categories are protected: Race, Color, National Origin/Ancestry, Sex, Religion/Creed, Physical/Mental disability www.azag.gov/discrimination/public-accommodation-discriminationFederal lawThe Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88–352, 78 Stat. 241, enacted July 2, 1964) is a landmark piece of civil rights and US labor law legislation in the United States[5] that outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.[6] It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public (known as "public accommodations"). Civil Righrs Act of 1964Additionally, some states' public accomodation laws also include age (if they are of the state's legal age) and sexual orientation. Arizona does not include age or sexusl orientstion in its public accomodation law. Federally, age discrimination only applies to employment and housing. You laugh/make fun of these laws because you were born by pure chance white which has been the dominant race in this country since its birth and which made all the laws of which some had negative affects on non-white and certain nationalities citizens since the early 1600s. You and I are old enough to have lived and witnessed it when many of these restrictive, discriminatory laws were still practiced in our country. That you and I have never been personally discriminated doesn't mean others have not been unfairly discriminated against because of their race, gender, or age.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 10, 2016 9:37:40 GMT -5
I will also point out As a white senior male, there is nothing that I can be discriminated against, ... Sure there is. As a white senior male, you fall under a number of classes under state and federal law where businesses and employers (though that would not apply to you right now as you are your own employer) can discriminate against you: Arizona public accomodation laws:Public Accommodation Discrimination The following Categories are protected: Race, Color, National Origin/Ancestry, Sex, Religion/Creed, Physical/Mental disability www.azag.gov/discrimination/public-accommodation-discriminationFederal lawThe Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Pub.L. 88–352, 78 Stat. 241, enacted July 2, 1964) is a landmark piece of civil rights and US labor law legislation in the United States[5] that outlawed discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.[6] It ended unequal application of voter registration requirements and racial segregation in schools, at the workplace and by facilities that served the general public (known as "public accommodations"). Civil Righrs Act of 1964Additionally, some states' public accomodation laws also include age (if they are of the state's legal age) and sexual orientation. Arizona does not include age or sexusl orientstion in its public accomodation law. Federally, age discrimination only applies to employment and housing. You laugh/make fun of these laws because you were born by pure chance white which has been the dominant race in this country since its birth and which made all the laws of which some had negative affects on non-white and certain nationalities citizens since the early 1600s. You and I are old enough to have lived and witnessed it when many of these restrictive, discriminatory laws were still practiced in our country. That you and I have never been personally discriminated doesn't mean others have not been unfairly discriminated against because of their race, gender, or age. I grew up in what was rural countryside Colorado, There were several black and Mexican living there. Askids we all went to school together, they were our best friends. We all were treated the same! It was not until I started going to the big City that I realized that they were treated different.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Oct 10, 2016 9:48:01 GMT -5
So you saw blacks and Mexicans (illegal immigrants or Mexican-Americans citizens?) being treated differently. Are you all right with them having been treated differently because you seem to mock discrimination laws.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Oct 10, 2016 9:50:26 GMT -5
I like Greg, he was a good person,,,,, Had a heart attack in his store, died! he will be missed. You're saying you knew Greg in real life and he died of a heart attack? Not the same Greg>
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