Paying Not to Murder: Ends Justify the Means?

[djAdvocate]

Apr 6, 2016 13:30:26 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 3, 2016 13:19:49 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

and a lot of people want the opposite of that.  on balance, there is nothing that says to me that this board is an exception to that general truth.

edit: i should also add that some people think that others want "more socialism", when in fact, that is not true.  take me for example.  i get accused of that all the time.  but the fact is i want socialism completely out of about 1/3 of the federal budget- which is about the same as most conservatives here.  it really comes down to WHAT socialism you want to end, and what you want to increase, not whether you actually want it or not- at least for most people.

that is what i think, anyway.

When you start talking about simply choosing what socialism you want, you're kind of making Goodman's point aren't you ?  Quote; Modern liberalism is not completely collectivist; nor is it completely individualistic. It has elements of both doctrines. THE SAME IS TRUE OF CONSERVATISM. Neither view provides a coherent approach to politics, built up from first principles. Instead, they both reflect a process that is akin to picking items from a dinner menu. What is chosen is a matter of taste rather than a matter of thought. Just as people with similar tastes in food tend to frequent the same restaurants, people with the same tastes in politics tend to vote for the same candidates. .amc

i don't see where Goodman was brought into the discussion, but sure.  i agree that BOTH Conservatives AND Liberals do this.  the point that PI appeared to be making is that this is somehow completely owned by one side of the political and social fence, and i find that argument dubious. 

if the point is that we all do this, i agree.  but only if the argument amounts to: "we all eat at Taco Bell".

[billisonboard]

Apr 6, 2016 13:14:48 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 2, 2016 14:57:58 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

...And how much pressure would be applied to teachers to ensure that certain GPA's were obtained.

Nothing wrong with working towards a tenured position versus coasting into one.  Also helps justify those public service unions, always pushing for yet more outrageous teacher salaries.  I have no problems with work in exchange for a good salary.

Not sure how this applies to my point. If a payment will be made to students with a certain GPA, how much pressure will teachers feel to make sure that, in spite of work done by the student, that the required number is achieved?

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 13:51:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 6, 2016 13:30:26 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

When you start talking about simply choosing what socialism you want, you're kind of making Goodman's point aren't you ?  Quote; Modern liberalism is not completely collectivist; nor is it completely individualistic. It has elements of both doctrines. THE SAME IS TRUE OF CONSERVATISM. Neither view provides a coherent approach to politics, built up from first principles. Instead, they both reflect a process that is akin to picking items from a dinner menu. What is chosen is a matter of taste rather than a matter of thought. Just as people with similar tastes in food tend to frequent the same restaurants, people with the same tastes in politics tend to vote for the same candidates. .amc

i don't see where Goodman was brought into the discussion, but sure.  i agree that BOTH Conservatives AND Liberals do this.  the point that PI appeared to be making is that this is somehow completely owned by one side of the political and social fence, and i find that argument dubious. 

if the point is that we all do this, i agree.  but only if the argument amounts to: "we all eat at Taco Bell".

It's definitely not owned by one side.  I never eat at Taco Bell.  I prefer my Mexican food from a small, Mexican family owned restaurant called "Netties".    A conservative choice.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 14:12:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 6, 2016 13:14:48 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Nothing wrong with working towards a tenured position versus coasting into one.  Also helps justify those public service unions, always pushing for yet more outrageous teacher salaries.  I have no problems with work in exchange for a good salary.

Not sure how this applies to my point. If a payment will be made to students with a certain GPA, how much pressure will teachers feel to make sure that, in spite of work done by the student, that the required number is achieved?

Should be no pressure at all.  All students should be graded at the performance they deliver.

[djAdvocate]

Apr 6, 2016 14:18:45 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 6, 2016 13:51:30 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i don't see where Goodman was brought into the discussion, but sure.  i agree that BOTH Conservatives AND Liberals do this.  the point that PI appeared to be making is that this is somehow completely owned by one side of the political and social fence, and i find that argument dubious. 

if the point is that we all do this, i agree.  but only if the argument amounts to: "we all eat at Taco Bell".

It's definitely not owned by one side.  I never eat at Taco Bell.  I prefer my Mexican food from a small, Mexican family owned restaurant called "Netties".    A conservative choice.

i don't eat at the chains, either.  i was speaking rhetorically. 

[billisonboard]

Apr 6, 2016 14:22:36 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Apr 6, 2016 14:12:53 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Not sure how this applies to my point. If a payment will be made to students with a certain GPA, how much pressure will teachers feel to make sure that, in spite of work done by the student, that the required number is achieved?

Should be no pressure at all.  All students should be graded at the performance they deliver.

Grades are totally arbitrary. For example, in a previous life I was tasked with the responsibility to help students with disabilities and their teachers find ways to be successful. One student, a hard worker, had no ability to retain information. If the teacher showed him how to do a certain type math problem at the start of class, he would successfully do them all class period. The next day it was like he had never seen them. This made it impossible for him to pass tests. We decided that the student would always hold jobs where he would have to be shown his day's work. We changed weighting for the class from 60% tests, 30% daily work, 10% class participation to 80% daily work, 10% tests, 10% participation.

If a community would receive a large sum of money if grades are at a certain level, there would be pressure on teachers to use a grading system that "helps" students get grades at that level.

[tallguy]

Apr 6, 2016 15:34:13 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Apr 6, 2016 14:18:45 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

It's definitely not owned by one side.  I never eat at Taco Bell.  I prefer my Mexican food from a small, Mexican family owned restaurant called "Netties".    A conservative choice.

i don't eat at the chains, either.  i was speaking rhetorically. 

Just wait 16 more years.  All restaurants will be Taco Bell. 

[zibazinski]

Apr 6, 2016 18:30:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 6, 2016 14:22:36 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Should be no pressure at all.  All students should be graded at the performance they deliver.

Grades are totally arbitrary. For example, in a previous life I was tasked with the responsibility to help students with disabilities and their teachers find ways to be successful. One student, a hard worker, had no ability to retain information. If the teacher showed him how to do a certain type math problem at the start of class, he would successfully do them all class period. The next day it was like he had never seen them. This made it impossible for him to pass tests. We decided that the student would always hold jobs where he would have to be shown his day's work. We changed weighting for the class from 60% tests, 30% daily work, 10% class participation to 80% daily work, 10% tests, 10% participation.

If a community would receive a large sum of money if grades are at a certain level, there would be pressure on teachers to use a grading system that "helps" students get grades at that level.

I really don't think so. Most students are unmotivated way before high school so still wouldn't bother. The rest will bother. Florida Bright Futures is a program both my kids took advantage of. You also had to do several hundred hours of forced volunteering. I don't see unmotivated kids doing that either. Plus you have to retain a certain gpa in college or lose it as well.

[billisonboard]

Apr 7, 2016 4:39:12 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Apr 6, 2016 18:30:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Grades are totally arbitrary. For example, in a previous life I was tasked with the responsibility to help students with disabilities and their teachers find ways to be successful. One student, a hard worker, had no ability to retain information. If the teacher showed him how to do a certain type math problem at the start of class, he would successfully do them all class period. The next day it was like he had never seen them. This made it impossible for him to pass tests. We decided that the student would always hold jobs where he would have to be shown his day's work. We changed weighting for the class from 60% tests, 30% daily work, 10% class participation to 80% daily work, 10% tests, 10% participation.

If a community would receive a large sum of money if grades are at a certain level, there would be pressure on teachers to use a grading system that "helps" students get grades at that level.

I really don't think so. Most students are unmotivated way before high school so still wouldn't bother. The rest will bother. Florida Bright Futures is a program both my kids took advantage of. You also had to do several hundred hours of forced volunteering. I don't see unmotivated kids doing that either. Plus you have to retain a certain gpa in college or lose it as well.

With grade inflation rampant at high schools, Bright Futures' aggregate payouts, even at reduced amounts, have more than sextupled in 14 years. - See more at: www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/cloudy-forecast-bright-futures#sthash.mpEnUdgo.dpuf

I would offer that the grade inflation is a result of pressure on teachers to assign higher grades so more students qualified for the benefit. 

[zibazinski]

If it has been its called the one year scholarship because the ones who can't make a 3.0 lose it I'm sure some teachers are pressured to inflate grades.

[happyhoix]

Apr 7, 2016 10:08:24 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 7, 2016 4:39:12 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

I really don't think so. Most students are unmotivated way before high school so still wouldn't bother. The rest will bother. Florida Bright Futures is a program both my kids took advantage of. You also had to do several hundred hours of forced volunteering. I don't see unmotivated kids doing that either. Plus you have to retain a certain gpa in college or lose it as well.

With grade inflation rampant at high schools, Bright Futures' aggregate payouts, even at reduced amounts, have more than sextupled in 14 years. - See more at: www.sunshinestatenews.com/story/cloudy-forecast-bright-futures#sthash.mpEnUdgo.dpuf

I would offer that the grade inflation is a result of pressure on teachers to assign higher grades so more students qualified for the benefit. 

This happened in Georgia, too, with the Hope scholarship, which goes to kids who maintain a certain GPA through college.  There was some grade creep as colleges pressured their professors to help kids keep their GPA up so they could stay in school, because more students benefits the college bank account.

[Deleted]

Apr 6, 2016 18:30:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 6, 2016 14:22:36 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

Should be no pressure at all.  All students should be graded at the performance they deliver.

Grades are totally arbitrary. For example, in a previous life I was tasked with the responsibility to help students with disabilities and their teachers find ways to be successful. One student, a hard worker, had no ability to retain information. If the teacher showed him how to do a certain type math problem at the start of class, he would successfully do them all class period. The next day it was like he had never seen them. This made it impossible for him to pass tests. We decided that the student would always hold jobs where he would have to be shown his day's work. We changed weighting for the class from 60% tests, 30% daily work, 10% class participation to 80% daily work, 10% tests, 10% participation.

If a community would receive a large sum of money if grades are at a certain level, there would be pressure on teachers to use a grading system that "helps" students get grades at that level.

Grades are not arbitrary, they reflect capability, or lack of.  Regardless how an ability, or lack of it, is described.  You seem to be describing special needs counseling.  All are not equal.  A drive to work hard, whatever the motivator, does not equate a certain IQ level and/or ability to learn (and retain).

[billisonboard]

Apr 8, 2016 12:29:26 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

...
Grades are not arbitrary, they reflect capability, or lack of. ...

True as far as that goes. The question is "capability, or lack of" to do what. The answer is, "the capability to meet the expectations of the person assigning the grade." So I guess it would be more accurate to say that the expectations are arbitrary. A teacher worth the title can easily write a test in which most students can mark 80% of the questions with correct answers or one that few will be able to do so.

1. Who was commander of the British forces in the Battle of New Orleans?
a. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Pakenham
b. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Parkenham
c. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Packenham
d. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Penenham

or

1. Who was commander of the British forces in the Battle of New Orleans?
a. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Pakenham
b. General Mischief
c. Major Trouble
d. Private Affairs

Or

5 easy multiple choice questions worth 15 points each and an essay question, "Tell me about some of causes of the War of 1812" worth 25 points

Or

20 difficult questions with 2 points each and an essay question, "Describe the economic conditions in the United States and Great Britain which lead to the outbreak of the War of 1812??" worth 60 points.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2016 13:17:17 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 8, 2016 12:29:26 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

...
Grades are not arbitrary, they reflect capability, or lack of. ...

True as far as that goes. The question is "capability, or lack of" to do what. The answer is, "the capability to meet the expectations of the person assigning the grade." So I guess it would be more accurate to say that the expectations are arbitrary. A teacher worth the title can easily write a test in which most students can mark 80% of the questions with correct answers or one that few will be able to do so.

1. Who was commander of the British forces in the Battle of New Orleans?
a. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Pakenham
b. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Parkenham
c. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Packenham
d. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Penenham

or

1. Who was commander of the British forces in the Battle of New Orleans?
a. Lieutenant General Sir Edward Pakenham
b. General Mischief
c. Major Trouble
d. Private Affairs

Or

5 easy multiple choice questions worth 15 points each and an essay question, "Tell me about some of causes of the War of 1812" worth 25 points

Or

20 difficult questions with 2 points each and an essay question, "Describe the economic conditions in the United States and Great Britain which lead to the outbreak of the War of 1812??" worth 60 points.

I wasn't trying to be obtuse, "but" without a grading system, you would of had no way of knowing that the one child you described with the long term memory shortcoming had a learning deficiency. It's just my point of view on grading. I also can accept yours as it is also correct IMO.   Those same expectations will still exist, when "graded" usefulness as an employee comes, after school time is over.   

[billisonboard]

Apr 8, 2016 14:11:11 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

...
I wasn't trying to be obtuse, "but" without a grading system, you would of had no way of knowing that the one child you described with the long term memory shortcoming had a learning deficiency. It's just my point of view on grading. I also can accept yours as it is also correct IMO.   Those same expectations will still exist, when "graded" usefulness as an employee comes, after school time is over.   

It was actually a testing system, not a grading system, that helped identify the retention issue.

I am not sure that "(t)hose same expectations" that schools are currently asking students to meet are the ones that employers are wishing their employees meet.

But I feel we have gotten away from the actual point that I initially was offering.  If a financial reward will be given by the government for a certain GPA, there will be pressure for teachers to adjust their expectations for what a student must do to have that certain GPA.  I offered evidence of this happening in Florida with a college scholarship program.  The pressure would multiple if it was a question of immediate cash in the pocket of individual families.  Not only would students and their parents provide pressure but local business owners, who would be the ultimate benefactors, would also pressure school administrators.  While it would be wonderful to believe that the pressure would be on students to increase their achievement levels, I don't see that as being the limit of who is pressured.

[Deleted]

Apr 8, 2016 15:06:49 GMT -5 billisonboard said:

Apr 8, 2016 14:11:11 GMT -5 @jma23 said:

...
I wasn't trying to be obtuse, "but" without a grading system, you would of had no way of knowing that the one child you described with the long term memory shortcoming had a learning deficiency. It's just my point of view on grading. I also can accept yours as it is also correct IMO.   Those same expectations will still exist, when "graded" usefulness as an employee comes, after school time is over.   

It was actually a testing system, not a grading system, that helped identify the retention issue.

I am not sure that "(t)hose same expectations" that schools are currently asking students to meet are the ones that employers are wishing their employees meet.

But I feel we have gotten away from the actual point that I initially was offering.  If a financial reward will be given by the government for a certain GPA, there will be pressure for teachers to adjust their expectations for what a student must do to have that certain GPA.  I offered evidence of this happening in Florida with a college scholarship program.  The pressure would multiple if it was a question of immediate cash in the pocket of individual families.  Not only would students and their parents provide pressure but local business owners, who would be the ultimate benefactors, would also pressure school administrators.  While it would be wonderful to believe that the pressure would be on students to increase their achievement levels, I don't see that as being the limit of who is pressured.

Tests are graded. Then you notice what's happening.  If it wasn't found out through general curriculum testing then we're back to a counseling problem.  I think we're beating around the same bush here and we're in agreement.