Wisconsin Beth
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No, we don't walk away. But when we're holding on to something precious, we run.
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Post by Wisconsin Beth on Sept 19, 2019 7:16:49 GMT -5
Time for the plug for Alison Greene's blog - askamanager.org She's got advice on resumes as well as interviewing.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Sept 19, 2019 8:15:53 GMT -5
I told her something like this. I came up with that she had been cross trained in a bunch of different roles, but there was no room for advancement since it was a tiny practice so she's chosen to look for a better job that will allow her to better grow her career. How does that sound? How long was she in the first job before she left? This situation reminded me of this satire video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz0o9clVQu8) about millennials in the workplace. (I am a millennial and I find this video hilarious and exaggerated, but with elements of truth.) While your answer sounds like a positive spin, consider how it could be seen through the millennial lens ("I was at the job for X months and it wasn't what I thought it would be and I didn't get a promotion, so I quit.") I'd recommend a slight variation - she was cross-trained in several different roles (such as X, Y and Z) and discovered a passion for Y. Due to the size of her previous company, the opportunities for Y were limited, so she's seeking a new position with a greater emphasis on Y, such as the one she's currently interviewing for. I'm wary of terms like "room for advancement" and "career growth opportunities" in a job interview. It's like telling the interviewer that you are only interested in this job as a stepping stone to bigger and better things. I think it's better to emphasize the skills you bring to the position, or possibly the skills you want to develop (though I think that should be secondary). The focus should be how hiring you will benefit the employer, not how you will benefit from being hired. If the interviewer asks about long-term goals, that's one thing, but I definitely wouldn't use "room for advancement" as a reason for leaving a job without another job lined up. Stick with something more generic like "it wasn't the right fit" and be prepared with 1 or 2 reasons why it wasn't a good fit that are interview-friendly. For example, I left a job after a year in my 20s, and my reasons were that the California-based company was closing the local Chicago office and I didn't want to work remotely, and that after working essentially as a consultant to other companies, I realized I preferred to work primarily with internal stakeholders. I knew both of those things were true about the new position (they had a local office and it was an internal role). I did not say things like my boss was too hands-off, or my co-workers were toxic, or the clients had unreasonable expectations, because, even if true, those things sound like bad-mouthing your previous company and I had no idea if they were true of the new job as well, because those are fairly common workplace problems. She was there for a year and a half.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 19, 2019 11:37:00 GMT -5
Ok. Question for you. My kid left a highly toxic workplace and ended up in one that was even worse. So now she's applying for new jobs. She was only at the second one for 3 weeks before she had to get out. I told her I wouldn't tell anyone about the second job. How does she explain leaving the first one with no job in place? Don't mention or not a good fit.
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andi9899
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Post by andi9899 on Sept 19, 2019 11:43:35 GMT -5
Ok. Question for you. My kid left a highly toxic workplace and ended up in one that was even worse. So now she's applying for new jobs. She was only at the second one for 3 weeks before she had to get out. I told her I wouldn't tell anyone about the second job. How does she explain leaving the first one with no job in place? Don't mention or not a good fit. The job itself was a great fit. It was just that it was a mom and pop practice with people running amok. I told her the next job needs to be big enough to have a formal HR department, not the doctor's wife.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 19, 2019 11:50:38 GMT -5
Looks like I did good on side job. They are asking if interested for 6-7 similar per year on a yearly basis going forward. RI is really here. It happened. It's real. Of course I said yes immediately! I'm rukh Still need to quote these out. Will be more careful! With my other client for 2020, right now estimating about 20-25k gross for 2020. Looks like up to 3k for remainder of 2019. I just need to figure out how to find the time!!
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 19, 2019 11:56:44 GMT -5
Don't mention or not a good fit. The job itself was a great fit. It was just that it was a mom and pop practice with people running amok. I told her the next job needs to be big enough to have a formal HR department, not the doctor's wife. I'd go with not mentioning. Hopefully with fit they wouldn't ask details but she could certainly mention it was a very small organization and she realized she wanted a place with x employees or whatever.
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raeoflyte
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Post by raeoflyte on Sept 19, 2019 12:32:50 GMT -5
Looks like I did good on side job. They are asking if interested for 6-7 similar per year on a yearly basis going forward. RI is really here. It happened. It's real. Of course I said yes immediately! I'm rukh [img src="http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/smile.gif" alt=" " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png" class="smile"] Still need to quote these out. Will be more careful! With my other client for 2020, right now estimating about 20-25k gross for 2020. Looks like up to 3k for remainder of 2019. I just need to figure out how to find the time!! That's awesome!
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 19, 2019 14:16:34 GMT -5
Looks like I did good on side job. They are asking if interested for 6-7 similar per year on a yearly basis going forward. RI is really here. It happened. It's real. Of course I said yes immediately! I'm rukh [img src="http://syonidv.hodginsmedia.com/vsmileys/smile.gif" alt=" " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png" class="smile"] Still need to quote these out. Will be more careful! With my other client for 2020, right now estimating about 20-25k gross for 2020. Looks like up to 3k for remainder of 2019. I just need to figure out how to find the time!! That's awesome! Thanks Rae!! It's feeling a little surreal right now. Seemed like RI might just be a pipe dream for a couple of years there. I was starting to get a bit old!! and now 2 clients - really good clients- sought me out without any effort on my part.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 26, 2019 13:12:39 GMT -5
Just looking for thoughts on this situation.
Last year everyone got a craptastic raise of 1%. I got a bonus of about 2.5% to "make up for it" with a promise of a not craptastic raise this year. Still waiting on hearing about what this year's raise would be. I just got a spot bonus instigated by the department that I've worked a lot with over the last year - which was about 2% of my current pay. I'm thankful for it, it's nice to be monetarily appreciated, but now I'm worried that they might see the spot bonus as a way to give me a mediocre at best raise this year.
When you account for inflation I'm actually making 3% less than I was when they hired me. I believe a 3% merit raise is seen as normal (though I know not every place does this, but when you're talking publicly traded companies) and if you take that cumulatively vs what I got I got half of that. If I go to those salary estimators the median amount they spit back at me is between 3.5% and 8% higher than what I am.
In your experience, when a bonus is not a regular part of compensation, does getting one affect any merit raises?
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Sept 26, 2019 21:55:45 GMT -5
Just looking for thoughts on this situation. Last year everyone got a craptastic raise of 1%. I got a bonus of about 2.5% to "make up for it" with a promise of a not craptastic raise this year. Still waiting on hearing about what this year's raise would be. I just got a spot bonus instigated by the department that I've worked a lot with over the last year - which was about 2% of my current pay. I'm thankful for it, it's nice to be monetarily appreciated, but now I'm worried that they might see the spot bonus as a way to give me a mediocre at best raise this year. When you account for inflation I'm actually making 3% less than I was when they hired me. I believe a 3% merit raise is seen as normal (though I know not every place does this, but when you're talking publicly traded companies) and if you take that cumulatively vs what I got I got half of that. If I go to those salary estimators the median amount they spit back at me is between 3.5% and 8% higher than what I am. In your experience, when a bonus is not a regular part of compensation, does getting one affect any merit raises? Whenever they gave us a bonus at the university, it was in lieu of a COL or merit raise. It only happened twice, at my last job. I think both times it was $500.
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buystoys
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Post by buystoys on Sept 27, 2019 6:41:20 GMT -5
Just looking for thoughts on this situation. Last year everyone got a craptastic raise of 1%. I got a bonus of about 2.5% to "make up for it" with a promise of a not craptastic raise this year. Still waiting on hearing about what this year's raise would be. I just got a spot bonus instigated by the department that I've worked a lot with over the last year - which was about 2% of my current pay. I'm thankful for it, it's nice to be monetarily appreciated, but now I'm worried that they might see the spot bonus as a way to give me a mediocre at best raise this year. When you account for inflation I'm actually making 3% less than I was when they hired me. I believe a 3% merit raise is seen as normal (though I know not every place does this, but when you're talking publicly traded companies) and if you take that cumulatively vs what I got I got half of that. If I go to those salary estimators the median amount they spit back at me is between 3.5% and 8% higher than what I am. In your experience, when a bonus is not a regular part of compensation, does getting one affect any merit raises? For me, the bonus was extra icing on the cake. Then again, I got a 13% raise one year because they were exiting the bonus program for our group.
I would be prepared to go to HR and make my case for a raise to bring you up to the median for your area. You may not need to, but it's always good to be prepared.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 27, 2019 7:40:01 GMT -5
Just looking for thoughts on this situation. Last year everyone got a craptastic raise of 1%. I got a bonus of about 2.5% to "make up for it" with a promise of a not craptastic raise this year. Still waiting on hearing about what this year's raise would be. I just got a spot bonus instigated by the department that I've worked a lot with over the last year - which was about 2% of my current pay. I'm thankful for it, it's nice to be monetarily appreciated, but now I'm worried that they might see the spot bonus as a way to give me a mediocre at best raise this year. When you account for inflation I'm actually making 3% less than I was when they hired me. I believe a 3% merit raise is seen as normal (though I know not every place does this, but when you're talking publicly traded companies) and if you take that cumulatively vs what I got I got half of that. If I go to those salary estimators the median amount they spit back at me is between 3.5% and 8% higher than what I am. In your experience, when a bonus is not a regular part of compensation, does getting one affect any merit raises? I haven't, but your place may be doing that. And it may be a way they can try to reward better performers over lackluster performers. The raise apparatus may not be finely adaptable for that purpose when the pot for raises is very low.
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azucena
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Post by azucena on Sept 27, 2019 8:57:39 GMT -5
Just looking for thoughts on this situation. Last year everyone got a craptastic raise of 1%. I got a bonus of about 2.5% to "make up for it" with a promise of a not craptastic raise this year. Still waiting on hearing about what this year's raise would be. I just got a spot bonus instigated by the department that I've worked a lot with over the last year - which was about 2% of my current pay. I'm thankful for it, it's nice to be monetarily appreciated, but now I'm worried that they might see the spot bonus as a way to give me a mediocre at best raise this year. When you account for inflation I'm actually making 3% less than I was when they hired me. I believe a 3% merit raise is seen as normal (though I know not every place does this, but when you're talking publicly traded companies) and if you take that cumulatively vs what I got I got half of that. If I go to those salary estimators the median amount they spit back at me is between 3.5% and 8% higher than what I am. In your experience, when a bonus is not a regular part of compensation, does getting one affect any merit raises? I haven't, but your place may be doing that. And it may be a way they can try to reward better performers over lackluster performers. The raise apparatus may not be finely adaptable for that purpose when the pot for raises is very low.
I agree with Rukh, but I'd be prepared to have the conversation about how one time bonuses are not 1-1 compensation for raises which accumulate over time. Could be the only way to get a bigger raise at your company is to get promoted in which case, you need to start asking what accomplishments and skills that would take.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 27, 2019 10:06:55 GMT -5
Yep! Try to push for a promotion!!
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 27, 2019 11:13:06 GMT -5
Thanks everyone!
So we just had our reviews (mine was great, as usually) and I had told my boss I wanted to talk about my pay/raise. This was before I found out about the bonus. We're talking about it on Monday. I'm definitely prepared for the convo - already had my numbers down before I got this bonus. Cumulative raises are half of what I would have gotten if I got the budgeted 3% raise, accounting for inflation I'm making 3% less than when I was hired, and the median amounts are 3.5%-8.5% higher than my current salary. I'm not factoring in any bonuses I've gotten because they're one-offs and not guarantees so to me they're not part of this convo.
It was the colleague that put me in for the spot bonus that told me about it - so no language about it being in lieu of anything. Unlike the bonus I got last year was explicitly because of the craptastic raise.
We've lost 3 of our 7 analysts in the last 3 months due to them leaving for another job. Based on how management talks it waffles between them maybe getting that pay might be an issue here and them saying they left not for pay. Snort, right.
I wish there was opportunity for a promotion. It's a relatively small department - there was only one other analyst besides me under my boss and he's one of the ones that left - and the recently got rid of one of the upper management jobs in the department. While my boss has talked about taking on a more leadership role when we backfill the positions there wasn't mention of a promotion to go with it. Though the most they could do is change senior analyst to lead analyst. I care more about being paid what I'm worth than a title change at the moment since the title change wouldn't be to manager so I don't think the difference between senior and lead is enough as different companies use those differently - but the pay speaks for itself.
I pretty much have a number in mind of what it would take for me not to ramp up my job search. I'm not doing it in earnest now (meaning I'm updating my linkedin and reply to emails, but not actively applying for stuff) since I'm waiting to see what my raise is as well as because in 4 weeks I'm going on vacation for a week, then back for a week, then to a conference for a week that I really want to go to as it increases my #1 one marketable skill. Of some consideration is the fact that in the beginning of Dec I vest in the last portion of my 401k which is currently $2700 - not a big impediment but it would suck to leave a chunk of money behind.
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Ava
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Post by Ava on Sept 28, 2019 8:59:50 GMT -5
In my department, we have the following positions: analyst, senior analyst and lead analyst.
There is a difference of 15K between a senior and a lead. I all over it. What is more, I am grooming for a lead position in 2 to 3 years.
Maybe you can apply for a job at a different department in the same company. am
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 28, 2019 9:47:14 GMT -5
There's really no other options to apply for except maybe the NYC office and I highly doubt they'd give me enough of a COLA to keep my standard of living the same there.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 28, 2019 10:06:12 GMT -5
There's really no other options to apply for except maybe the NYC office and I highly doubt they'd give me enough of a COLA to keep my standard of living the same there. any telecommuting options?
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 28, 2019 10:56:42 GMT -5
There's really no other options to apply for except maybe the NYC office and I highly doubt they'd give me enough of a COLA to keep my standard of living the same there. any telecommuting options? Doubt it. They limit the work from home days for my current job even though I could easily do my job with 5 times as many work from home days. I'm pretty much left with going to a new company if they give me a crappy raise. Officially my department is part of NYC not the division I actually work at. The bosses down here always say that NYC tells them what our raises will be. Which is messed up as it's way easier to hand out crappy raises to people you don't see.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Sept 28, 2019 11:26:31 GMT -5
any telecommuting options? Doubt it. They limit the work from home days for my current job even though I could easily do my job with 5 times as many work from home days. I'm pretty much left with going to a new company if they give me a crappy raise. Officially my department is part of NYC not the division I actually work at. The bosses down here always say that NYC tells them what our raises will be. Which is messed up as it's way easier to hand out crappy raises to people you don't see. I've learned not to trust those "out of my hands" excuses. You could always apply to the NYC positions, and ask about telecommuting at the interview stage. It couldn't hurt.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 28, 2019 12:20:05 GMT -5
Doubt it. They limit the work from home days for my current job even though I could easily do my job with 5 times as many work from home days. I'm pretty much left with going to a new company if they give me a crappy raise. Officially my department is part of NYC not the division I actually work at. The bosses down here always say that NYC tells them what our raises will be. Which is messed up as it's way easier to hand out crappy raises to people you don't see. I've learned not to trust those "out of my hands" excuses. You could always apply to the NYC positions, and ask about telecommuting at the interview stage. It couldn't hurt. I don't fully trust it, but when I've heard it from multiple people on multiple levels. We're also having to wait on NYC to ok backfilling the vacant positions. Plus the only option in NYC open is not a promotion, same level as I am now.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Sept 30, 2019 19:05:59 GMT -5
Asking for a friend whose DH is likely facing a layoff due to a merger:
Can anyone recommend a national executive search firm for an executive-suite-level accountant/CFO?
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Sept 30, 2019 21:01:52 GMT -5
Asking for a friend whose DH is likely facing a layoff due to a merger: Can anyone recommend a national executive search firm for an executive-suite-level accountant/CFO? 1) if senior level or have a lot of years in, don’t leave, wait for lay-off. Should be better off with severance, paid insurance, other benefits. 2) my last 2 jobs have been through recruiters who contact me through LinkedIn. I am in Engineering field. I just update my profile with resume information. And then I set my preferences to allow recruiters to contact me. There are also settings for what type of job you are looking for. I got contacted by recruiters from all over the country. I’m not sure there are big national recruiting firms. Recruiters work on a per job basis. They work for companies that have open positions and search for applicants. They don’t generally take applicants and search for jobs.
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justme
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Post by justme on Sept 30, 2019 21:53:18 GMT -5
So update - it was ever so more positive than I thought. He told me that his boss put in for a 3% raise for me this year and they think it's likely to be approved and if not they'll fight for it. But that will still put me at $1000 under the lowest median salary and $4000 under the highest if my spot bonus isn't included (which it shouldn't as there's no reason to count on one next year).
He asked if that was what I was looking for and I basically said while I was appreciative of it being higher than I got last year I was looking to be brought in line with at least the median amount. He mentioned he'd talk to his boss about asking if they could ask for a little more.
I'll probably find out the number right before I go on vacation.
The irony is if I just got the 3% on all or almost all years I'd be within the median and while I might still be looking at other opportunities I wouldn't be doing it feeling burned by a few years of shitty raises even though I got great reviews.
Oh and there was also mention that if I follow through on some stuff we talked about it might put me in position for a promotion next year.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Oct 7, 2019 11:14:38 GMT -5
Found a bunch of jobs to apply to. None are very close to home, unfortunately, but if I must drive, I'd like it to be going to a job where I at least enjoy some of the things I do. I don't hate any of my tasks, but it's just tedious, for the most part. Nothing interesting about it whatsoever.
No updates on current job going full-time, either. I'm not in a huge rush to work more, but getting some good benefits would make me happier about the current gig.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Oct 17, 2019 17:06:11 GMT -5
Sort of the same as Rukh. When I was working for the IRS, I wrote a training manual for a segment for new hires. I wrote a coursebook. I wrote it at the request of upper management because my supervisor and I had developed a course for orientation week that didn't bore everyone to death.
It went through channels to the National Office. The new course came out and it "my" course with just a few changes. My name was nowhere to be found.
The only recognition I got was a performance award from upper management. At least they recognized what I had done.
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gs11rmb
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Post by gs11rmb on Oct 18, 2019 8:11:56 GMT -5
Rukh O'Rorke did you address the issue when it first happened. I know it seems obvious to you but it's possible that they are not thinking of it as "pinching" your ideas. If you make it clear that's how you view it they should be more considerate in the future.
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alabamagal
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Post by alabamagal on Oct 18, 2019 9:38:39 GMT -5
Sort of the same as Rukh. When I was working for the IRS, I wrote a training manual for a segment for new hires. I wrote a coursebook. I wrote it at the request of upper management because my supervisor and I had developed a course for orientation week that didn't bore everyone to death. It went through channels to the National Office. The new course came out and it "my" course with just a few changes. My name was nowhere to be found. The only recognition I got was a performance award from upper management. At least they recognized what I had done. I am really confused by what you expected to get out of developing this course. Your employer is the government, and assuming that it is very similar to working for private industry. The work that you do is owned by your employer, and by working for them they pay your salary. In addition to salary, we expect additional recognition when we do a good job, and it sounds like you did get that. But you do not own the work. I work in engineering, although I “own” a project and do work on it, and coordinate others to work on it, I do not own the result. Sure when I am working on it, it is “my” project, but once the project is complete, it belongs to my company. At the end, I hope to get recognized, and possibly consulted in the future if there are challenges related to the operation, but at the end of the day, the company’s name is on the project/building and I move on to the next project.
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TheOtherMe
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Post by TheOtherMe on Oct 18, 2019 10:07:22 GMT -5
There was an acknowledgements page in the course. My name should have been on that page. My boss's name should have been on that page as we developed the course. That is all I expected.
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Rukh O'Rorke
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Post by Rukh O'Rorke on Oct 18, 2019 12:02:12 GMT -5
Sort of the same as Rukh. When I was working for the IRS, I wrote a training manual for a segment for new hires. I wrote a coursebook. I wrote it at the request of upper management because my supervisor and I had developed a course for orientation week that didn't bore everyone to death. It went through channels to the National Office. The new course came out and it "my" course with just a few changes. My name was nowhere to be found. The only recognition I got was a performance award from upper management. At least they recognized what I had done. I am really confused by what you expected to get out of developing this course. Your employer is the government, and assuming that it is very similar to working for private industry. The work that you do is owned by your employer, and by working for them they pay your salary. In addition to salary, we expect additional recognition when we do a good job, and it sounds like you did get that. But you do not own the work. I work in engineering, although I “own” a project and do work on it, and coordinate others to work on it, I do not own the result. Sure when I am working on it, it is “my” project, but once the project is complete, it belongs to my company. At the end, I hope to get recognized, and possibly consulted in the future if there are challenges related to the operation, but at the end of the day, the company’s name is on the project/building and I move on to the next project. I can see that perspective so I guess it depends on if any authors were noted or not. In my industry, even white papers can be commonly cited and are almost always attributed to authors.
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