Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 22:10:31 GMT -5
Gender is not a scientific construct. It is a social construct.
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moon/Laura
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Post by moon/Laura on Jan 19, 2016 22:10:55 GMT -5
Physically, based on appearance, he's male. Psychologically, however, he feels like a female. It's wiring in the brain more so than outward appearance that causes a person to identify as whatever gender.
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kittensaver
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Post by kittensaver on Jan 19, 2016 22:21:27 GMT -5
Yes, that is true for you, because you identify as male and are attracted to women /heterosexual. That is not true for everyone, however. And to call someone who feels they are trapped in the wrong physical body a freak, or make no effort to see their perspective is wrong. Not saying you have said those things..just making a general statement. Just as it takes more than just biology to make a mom or dad, it takes more than a penis or vagina to truly be one gender or another. Actually, scientifically, it does not.
Also, you are correct. I don't believe I called anyone anything other than calling the friend's husband a guy. Actually - scientifically - it DOES. Get yourself a good graduate-level textbook on human sexuality or a first-year medical text and read the medical research and the medical conclusions about sexuality and gender identity. Try the bookstore of your local university or graduate school. Sexuality, sexual identity and gender identity ARE different things for some people. That's a researched medical fact. If those things all "line up" for you in your life, well - thank your lucky stars. You get to escape the confusion, pressure, cruel homophobia and social, religious and cultural judgment heaped on those who are "different." As a straight guy living comfortably on one end of the continuum, please don't make it hard for others who are not like you. There is nothing wrong with them - medically and psychologically they are merely in a different place along that continuum than you are. Don't be THAT guy who contributes to making life miserable for others. Live and let live.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 19, 2016 22:30:45 GMT -5
I think supporting the wife should be fairly easy - it's her situation, so who can possibly have anything negative to say about whatever path she is choosing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 22:37:44 GMT -5
All you can do for your friend is be there in whatever way helps, perhaps lots of counseling/support of family and friends will help see them through this..
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 22:45:34 GMT -5
Since gender and sex are two different things why do people need to mutilate their bodies to make their sex match up to their chosen gender? Why not just have 4 genders like I was reading the First Nations had way back when. They had male/male, female/female, male/female and female/male. I don't see why your genitals have to dictate who you sleep with and how you dress.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 22:55:56 GMT -5
Why do women get their boobs and vaginas 'done'? Why are their pec implants and penis drugs? Why pierce? Why does what someone else does to their genitals or secondary sex organs matter to you?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 23:00:50 GMT -5
Why do women get their boobs and vaginas 'done'? Why are their pec implants and penis drugs? Why pierce? Why does what someone else does to their genitals or secondary sex organs matter to you? 1. That all comes under the heading of self mutilation to me. 2. I'm in the land of universal health care, I end up paying for it. I get to have an opinion. 3. If I don't get an opinion neither do you. You have no more inherent right to agree with what they choose to do to their bodies than I have to question it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2016 23:14:14 GMT -5
Universal insurance pays for procedures which are cost benefit to reduce burden overall. Not all of those things would be covered in universal health care.
If we are talking inherent rights, yes, the person's ability to do what they want to their own body trumps the rights of others to question them...
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haapai
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Post by haapai on Jan 19, 2016 23:25:17 GMT -5
I think I'd also pay attention and make sure she knows that she won't be negatively judged by her friends if she doesn't stay in the marriage after her spouse's transition. I've heard that the trend is definitely toward partners (including legally married ones) staying together through transitioning but that shouldn't become the new tyranny. Personally, I'd be pissed as hell if my partner announced a trans identity and/or a desire to transition after several years together and a couple decades of adulthood. Starting over isn't easy, and I'd be pissed as hell at my partner for the drama and financial instability that comes with transitioning. I wouldn't like that primary breadwinner plus guardian of secrets role a bit. Adapting to being a same-sex couple sans Sapphic history could also be a pretty yucky and lonely experience for both of your friends. The cis and hetero crowd might treat them a whole lot better than they would have twenty years ago, but I'm not sure about how at home they'd feel among the congregation that they were joining, Cripe, isn't that a bit like converting to Judaism without knowing how to make a kugel?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 19, 2016 23:39:28 GMT -5
shanendoah-I believe the best thing you can do for your friend (the wife) at this time is learn as much as you can about the spouses/mates of people who transition into the opposite gender in addition to what is going on with the person who is transitioning. Learn the issues/stages the spouses/mates go through while their spouse/mates are making the change. Learn how to get your friend the spouse to open up and express what is going on inside their heads. Be supportive of the spouse's future decisions. If you are comfortable with it, talk to the person who is transitioning and ask her how she wants to be addressed in public especially if it is not that obvious of the physical change from male to female. Ask her if she is comfortable with you telling others about her change and with whom you should not discussion it with (if she knows). You can help her break the ice of the transition with others with her permission. You should also ask the spouse the same question(s) about discussing it with others. The spouse may not be ready for the news of the transition and her business to be out in the open. Don't be afraid to ask questions.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 19, 2016 23:45:50 GMT -5
Why do women get their boobs and vaginas 'done'? Why are their pec implants and penis drugs? Why pierce? Why does what someone else does to their genitals or secondary sex organs matter to you? If I'm sleeping with them, it sure as hell matters to me.
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shanendoah
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Post by shanendoah on Jan 20, 2016 0:12:36 GMT -5
MJ2.0 - oh, it absolutely gets to matter to the wife. As we have told the friend, we have known her for 20 years. She, the person, is our friend and the outside trappings do not matter, to us. But to the wife (they have been married 7.5 years) it absolutely gets to matter. No judgement there. The night they told us, we asked about counseling for both of them.
This is not public knowledge yet. As I said, there are a couple people in our friend group who I am not certain they have had a chance to tell yet. And they are not ready for the wife's family to know yet, so when they come to our house, where the wife's cousin is staying this month, they present as a standard hetero couple.
This is early in the process for both of them, but I can say for the person transitioning, from the moment the transgender issue was acknowledged, a lot of anger has dissipated. So we are already seeing a mental health improvement.
They do not have kids. We live in an area that is more accepting of this sort of thing than the national average. Most insurance companies in the state cover gender reassignment surgery, and the job would be protected by FMLA or the state FCA.
I do not know if our friend is actually going to seek out surgery. It could be that she'll go with tucking and wearing "womens" clothes. (I put that in quotes because our friend group is all jeans and t-shirts, regardless of gender.)
I obviously want to support both of them. I just seem to notice that we have more supports in place for the person transitioning (and they totally need them), but fewer for the families that are also going through a major transition. I want to make sure I am able to support both people I care about.
gregintenn - I get that this is something that makes no sense to you. I do. But I think it should have been obvious from my post that "You're a man, act like it" was not something I was going to see as supporting my friends. So while I, and I think others here, will try and help you gain perspective (we can't help you understand, because those of us who are cis gendered really can't understand) if you want it. But if the only comments you can make are clearly the opposite of what I would find supportive, I would ask that you not comment on the thread. I titled it clearly specifically so that people who would be offended by this could easily avoid it.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2016 0:19:38 GMT -5
I wouldn't be surprised if after awhile you won't see the wife anymore. Bc it sounds like you are really the husband's friends, so if the wife decides to get a divorce - she won't be in your circle anymore.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Jan 20, 2016 3:18:28 GMT -5
I would keep my support simple, keep inviting them to events like dinner in your house. Remind each of them you care about them and what what they think is right for them. Use the preferred gender references if use any like calling the husband wife it the wife wants that. If the one transitioning is attracted to woman the marriage stands a chance if the spouse is too sad about losing too much she will leave, all you can do is be there and not judge other people. If she stays or goes or he has surgery or not is their choice, he might her or her him but it will be hard together or apart. I would try not to bring it up unless they want to talk about it. You can be the normal spot where dinner is about the food not their sex life, talk about puppies or something.
This transgender thing has been going on most of my life we had a billy goat that gave milk named Christine Jorgenson when I was in preschool named after the first famous transgender person.
I don't get what it is to feel female or male exactly why you can't feel one while being the other. I grew up a boy pretty much like my brothers, fishing, camping doing guy things identified "tom boy" I didn't like being restricted from things because I was a girl yet was in some ways a little girly too like being cuddly sometimes but boys cuddle too and boys sometimes like flowers and playing with dolls doesn't mean they aren't still boys. My older brother liked dolls more than I did yet he always married woman and had kids. I think we are making too much of what each gender should feel like or dress. He wants to dress like a princess doesn't do any harm, I want to dress in jeans doesn't do any harm.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 3:42:00 GMT -5
Why do women get their boobs and vaginas 'done'? Why are their pec implants and penis drugs? Why pierce? Why does what someone else does to their genitals or secondary sex organs matter to you? If I'm sleeping with them, it sure as hell matters to me. Yes. His wife may question him. They have a contract. Even then ultimately it is the person who owns the body who makes the ultimate decisions on what to do with it.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 6:39:32 GMT -5
If I'm sleeping with them, it sure as hell matters to me. Yes. His wife may question him. They have a contract. Even then ultimately it is the person who owns the body who makes the ultimate decisions on what to do with it. I'm not addressing that I'm addressing the "why should what someone does to their body matter to anyone" part. Not saying that you said this but I am offended that the overarching consensus is that only the feelings of the transitioner matter. Their family is not allowed to do anything but be 100% happy and supportive. This is kind of like a death. The person their family has grown to love and cherish is (or will be) gone, and yet we don't tell widows or family of terminally ill people to just be happy for them because their suffering is or will be over soon. Yes, we are in charge of our own selves but it is completely selfish and unrealistic to think that no one else is entitled to their own feelings about it - whether they are good or bad.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 20, 2016 6:51:15 GMT -5
Universal insurance pays for procedures which are cost benefit to reduce burden overall. Not all of those things would be covered in universal health care. If we are talking inherent rights, yes, the person's ability to do what they want to their own body trumps the rights of others to question them... No....in a free and open society, anyone can express what they think and feel. Greg, Laterbloomer and anyone else can comment. Just because their point of view doesn't coincide with yours or the majority on this thread is irrelevant. You have been free to say that you don't like their point of view. But, it's theirs and they had the wherewithal to express it. It is a tragic loss for the wife of this person. She entered into a marriage with someone who I would suspect was hiding their true feelings about a major aspect of who they are and how they feel. It's a death of sorts. Shane appears to be a kind and empathetic person...I'm guessing that she'll be able to provide some measure of support to this wife.
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skubikky
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Post by skubikky on Jan 20, 2016 6:53:46 GMT -5
I think I'd also pay attention and make sure she knows that she won't be negatively judged by her friends if she doesn't stay in the marriage after her spouse's transition. I've heard that the trend is definitely toward partners (including legally married ones) staying together through transitioning but that shouldn't become the new tyranny. Personally, I'd be pissed as hell if my partner announced a trans identity and/or a desire to transition after several years together and a couple decades of adulthood. Starting over isn't easy, and I'd be pissed as hell at my partner for the drama If there are children....how would they respond to their father becoming female? I can't imagine the emotional turmoil that could ensue?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2016 7:16:08 GMT -5
Fortunately it seems the marriage has been a short one so hopefully she is still young enough to start over and make a new life for herself. If she chooses. My anger is reserved for those who knew they were gay or knew they wanted to be someone they weren't but tricked someone else into a fraudulent relationship based on their own selfishness. I've seen it happen way too much. Usually men perpetrating it on women and sometimes these women have had children with them. That's my beef. It's okay for you to be whatever you want to be. It's not okay to subject another to your decisions that affect them
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 7:18:48 GMT -5
Later suggested that her disagreeing with their choice was the same as me agreeing with their choice. But I never explicitly said if I agreed or disagreed.
What I said is they have every RIGHT to make their decision about their own body. If you are taking the counter point to that, it is that they DO NOT have the Right to decide what to do with their own body.
Is that the counterpoint you are taking?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 9:00:31 GMT -5
cronewitch said: I don't get what it is to feel female or male exactly why you can't feel one while being the other. I grew up a boy pretty much like my brothers, fishing, camping doing guy things identified "tom boy" I didn't like being restricted from things because I was a girl yet was in some ways a little girly too like being cuddly sometimes but boys cuddle too and boys sometimes like flowers and playing with dolls doesn't mean they aren't still boys. My older brother liked dolls more than I did yet he always married woman and had kids. I think we are making too much of what each gender should feel like or dress. He wants to dress like a princess doesn't do any harm, I want to dress in jeans doesn't do any harm.And I think it's a very good point. Since we're now in a society where most types of jobs and interests are seen as "unisex", why do you need genitals to match your interests?
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2016 9:02:23 GMT -5
I've heard that the trend is definitely toward partners (including legally married ones) staying together through transitioning but that shouldn't become the new tyranny. Personally, I'd be pissed as hell if my partner announced a trans identity and/or a desire to transition after several years together and a couple decades of adulthood. Starting over isn't easy, and I'd be pissed as hell at my partner for the drama If there are children....how would they respond to their father becoming female? I can't imagine the emotional turmoil that could ensue? Well, I can tell you how one instance turned out which is why it pushes a hot button with me. Because the "man" didn't feel able to perpetrate his fraud on his family until his freshman in high school son finished high school and made a public spectacle of himself because it was all about him, his son committed suicide and this was after his mother moved him from the area and of course had to give up her career as well to try to spare her son the embarrassment. So that "man" destroyed his son and well as harmed his wife. It's the innocent that suffer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2016 9:08:21 GMT -5
Later suggested that her disagreeing with their choice was the same as me agreeing with their choice. But I never explicitly said if I agreed or disagreed. What I said is they have every RIGHT to make their decision about their own body. If you are taking the counter point to that, it is that they DO NOT have the Right to decide what to do with their own body. Is that the counterpoint you are taking? I did not discuss their rights.
It is contradictory to say that the sex organs do not dictate gender then promote surgery to have the sex organs match the chosen gender. If your birth sex is male but you feel your gender is female why can't you just identify as that? That would be the ultimate in both the person and society accepting them as they are.
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2016 9:14:04 GMT -5
I agree with that. What I don't agree with is subjecting innocent parties to it. If what I'm told is true, gay people know as well as others who don't feel they were assigned the gender correctly. That's okay for them but to pretend otherwise to innocent people is very wrong. If you aren't sure what you are, and in my opinion if you're not sure then you really already know down deep but just don't accept it yet, then leave people alone who think you are what you pretend to be.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jan 20, 2016 9:27:30 GMT -5
Anytime one spouse makes a significant personal change -- stops drinking, steps off of the career track, retires -- the relationship changes. Sometimes the relationship can adapt and grow from the unilateral changes. Sometimes it can't and the relationship dies. I can understand feeling cheated if I was the spouse in the latter category who had his/her life turned upside down by the other spouse's personal change. But, only Shanendoah's friends can decide whether those valid feelings are the death knell of the relationship.
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whoisjohngalt
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Post by whoisjohngalt on Jan 20, 2016 9:30:55 GMT -5
Granted, the whole transgender thing is beyond my comprehension, but if the person keeps the same genitals - what exactly does the "transition" entails? Changing hair, makeup and outfits?? Oh being called Nicole instead of Nick
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zibazinski
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Post by zibazinski on Jan 20, 2016 9:32:36 GMT -5
I always enjoy the ones who paint their toe nails. With their hairy feet and toes. Man feet.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jan 20, 2016 9:37:44 GMT -5
Granted, the whole transgender thing is beyond my comprehension, but if the person keeps the same genitals - what exactly does the "transition" entails? Changing hair, makeup and outfits?? Oh being called Nicole instead of Nick Good question. And I'll add a sincere one to it: What IS the difference between transgender and drag other than the fact that men in drag don't usually have significant surgery?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Jan 20, 2016 9:37:51 GMT -5
I think that's just cross dressing. Totally different.
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