weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 11, 2015 11:50:36 GMT -5
So nobody has really explained to me why or how this would work in the US. I didn't think it was that hard of a question I don't think it will work in the U.S. Because the government fucks up every program it runs. So, are you saying that the "greatest country in the world" can't do anything right?
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mroped
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Post by mroped on Oct 11, 2015 11:55:45 GMT -5
I know how dysfunctional and disorganized the gov can be. I've experienced that first hand in my processing with the immigration. Even inside the same organization, the information is not shared if you move from state to state or even from doctor to doctor. We brought that(the population) on ourselves when we decided to have private lives in all aspects. Doctors should be put on the same database. Ofcourse, there would be no privacy when you go to a doctor. On the one hand, we want doctors to help us heal but on the other hand we don't want them to have our medical information readily available. God forbid the doctor that I'm seeing now might find out that I had a drug overdose ten years ago or a miscarriage in my past or that I was a smoker. Thats stupid!
Info is not shared because it is prohibited to do so. People hide medical problems from their doctors. Those that have a reason to hide that, also have enough power to convince all others that they need that too.
The way I see it with the veterans and their medical needs: -you get discharged and have medical problems, you go to the nearest, most convenient doctor. You get treated, sign a form that is saying that your problem has been taken care of, you go home and mind your life! Period! -all would be required would be a form of ID (Ofcourse with a link to DOD) to prove that you are who you are. Not a dime out of pocket, nothing to be held accountable for. You put your life on the line for us, this is the least we can do for you! Thank you for your service!
Is there anything else we can do for you?
That, should be the ONLY question you ask a veteran not "how are we gonna handle the balance of your treatment!"
We have money to donate to church every Sunday, we have enough money to give to most nations around the world to help them enjoy life and so on but we don't have money for those that helped us have a life, that protect or protected our way of life. Shame, big, big,big great shame!
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 11, 2015 11:58:38 GMT -5
I don't think it will work in the U.S. Because the government fucks up every program it runs. So, are you saying that the "greatest country in the world" can't do anything right? Government in general can't get it right. I think the U.S. is generally less of a fuck up than other countries. But I dint have any illusions, nor I have I ever had, that the U.S. Is the best at everything. Even the best can learn from others.
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swamp
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Post by swamp on Oct 11, 2015 11:59:36 GMT -5
If you want cheaper health care, take better care of yourself and then have a fatal accident at a late age Not necessarily true. No matter how well I take care of myself I will always have a thyroid issue and an insulin resistance problem. I will also have arthritis.
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Value Buy
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Post by Value Buy on Oct 11, 2015 12:09:13 GMT -5
It should by all means. After all it works all over the world doesn't it? Nobody, and I mean nobody in this world spends the kind of money that we do( government wise) on health care- subsidizing, Medicare, Medicaid etc. At this point if we just remove -as I already mentioned- the middle man, and set some kind of tax-fixed or otherwise- on income, we could come up with what's missing. And will work, there is no reason why it shouldn't. so fiscally, we can do it. Socialy, I don't see why not? Are people going to complain about better health care? Politicaly... That's a different animal. There we might have a problem and will not be easy solving it. we used to be a "CAN DO" nation. now we are a nation of pathetic whiners, complaining about problems that are too hard to solve. i want my country back. Since you are a Republican, I am glad to finally see you complaining about the Dems and their whining, we do not having enough socialist programs in our Government handouts.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:21:20 GMT -5
first of all, England's HC system is not a top 10 system, so i don't really care for this as example of something we should duplicate. secondly, the neoconservatives have been in charge of that system for 30 years. you have no way of separating neoconservative policies from these results, even if you wanted to. third, as s*&tty as this system is, it puts ours to shame in terms of general medicine, both on a cost per patient basis, and an outcome basis. finally, MOST healthcare systems, including ours, are in trouble, for a variety of reasons that are not even being discussed, here. edit: oh, and this deficit is tiddlywinks, btw. it is barely $1B. Trump is worth more than that. Actually, £930M is closer to $1.425B (after conversion to US$). (still way less than Trump is worth though) i did the math, and was rounding to the nearest billion, as indicated by the number of significant figures carried in my response. edit: was it the word BARELY that bothered you. you're right. i should have just said $1B.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:23:27 GMT -5
If you want cheaper health care, take better care of yourself and then have a fatal accident at a late age sounds familiar:
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:27:11 GMT -5
we used to be a "CAN DO" nation. now we are a nation of pathetic whiners, complaining about problems that are too hard to solve. i want my country back. Since you are a Republican, I am glad to finally see you complaining about the Dems and their whining, we do not having enough socialist programs in our Government handouts. the Democrats are not excluded from my argument, even though you missed the point.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 12:29:37 GMT -5
So nobody has really explained to me why or how this would work in the US. I didn't think it was that hard of a question you're right, it's easy. because we are awesome. you're welcome. edit: to paraphrase weltz's response to the second half of your question: the same way it works in France and Italy.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 14:27:02 GMT -5
you're right, it's easy. because we are awesome. you're welcome. edit: to paraphrase weltz's response to the second half of your question: the same way it works in France and Italy. While I agree it is possible, the question is...is it probable. Mroped is is the only one coming close to answering my questions. I really am interested to hear everyone's opinion, well their opinion that doesn't parrot sound bites that is. I have to to be honest I expected more thought out responses from you on this subject. ETA.. The same way it's done in France and Italy is not an answer to the question, because the US is not France or Italy you just asked why and how. i answered that. so, acknowledging that this is a NEW question..... probable? yeah, i think it is, actually. since it is the best way to do things, i think that eventually, the US is dragged, kicking and screaming, to FOLLOW the lead of the rest of the world. generally speaking, in democratic societies, best methods end up being adopted. your question was phrased as a sound bite, so expecting a 3 course reply is not very realistic, imo. but give it your best shot. and yes, the same way as France and Italy, is, in fact, an answer. well, at least to the question i THOUGHT you were asking. you asked HOW universal healthcare would come to the US, and i interpreted that question is "what would it look like". it should look like the best systems in the world, which are those in France and Italy, given that we are the best nation on Earth. so, what question were you actually asking?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 15:39:06 GMT -5
I don't know how I can phrase it in any other way? Knowing what you know about the US; our value system, the way our government works, our current political environment, our current social environment. How would this system work here? How would the system deal with a regime of fiscal conservatives in power? How would it cope with social conservatives in power? How would it handle our large social issues that impact health, how would the average US citizen cope with things like privacy loss, wait times, loss of choice -even if only perceived? Do you think the Govt will do a better job of running a national healthcare program than they currently do with the VA? If yes, then why aren't they doing it already? Do you think the average US citizen is ready to to put their health in the hands of a government the don't trust? i think it would work beautifully. it is a beautiful system. it maximizes freedom, choice, and minimizes cost. it produces the best health outcomes of any system in the world. and it does so with maximum efficiency and minimum waste. what is wasteful is a system where private insurers work against our health outcomes. what is inefficient is having to produce proof of insurance for an ingrown toenail. knowing that you won't be bankrupted if something terrible happens to you is a liberating feeling that many, if not most, Americans do not enjoy. and spending 10% more of our GROSS income on medical care than any other nation on earth is maddening in a nation that values capital management above all other things. this system would APPEAL to fiscal conservatives, due to it's cost. if it existed, MC and a whole slew of other programs could go along for the ride. as to social conservatism, this is a secular society and it should have a secular system. your privacy should be the same or better with a universal system. this is not about medicine, it is about INSURANCE. in fact, since the system should accept everyone regardless of health, you will no longer have to answer questions about the last time you smoked, drank, and used drugs. the privacy should be BETTER. a dual system has shorter wait times for non-emergency care than a private or single payer only system. do you know that most people like the VA better than the private HC system? it's true. look it up. think about that. and again, this is not about HC, this is about INSURANCE. so, NO, we are not ready to have HC handed over to government. but i was ready to get insurance out of the picture THIRTY YEARS AGO. aren't you?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 16:18:07 GMT -5
I feel like I need to give up here. I'll admit my questions may not be coming out right. im getting a lot of answers that contain the word 'should' however not very much in the way of here's a specific reason why. I mean I can sit here and say I can lose weight and I should be able to exercise more, but the package of twinkles on my kitchen counter and the dusty treadmill point to the reality. Another one...the US could simplify the tax code, many people want it simplified, yet we seem to make it more complicated each year. All I am asking is what evidence do we have that it will be successful in the US. i am absolutely in favor of simplifying the tax code if it does TWO things: 1) increases revenue 2) distributes the burden according to disposable income. i really tried to answer your question about socializing our insurance system. i addressed the underlying social issues as well as i could. if you are asking whether it is politically POSSIBLE, the answer is, again, YES. it was politically POSSIBLE in 2008. it didn't get done for a variety of reasons, but i have no doubt it is POSSIBLE, and that the POSSIBILITY will grow over time, because our system is utterly unsustainable and costly. so, if that is your question, the answer is NO. we will never socialize healthcare here. none of the best systems have, and i want the best system.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Oct 11, 2015 16:20:54 GMT -5
i think Obama did a TERRIBLE job of messaging this. the idea of single payer is not to change "healthcare", it is to change the mechanism by which we pay for it. rather than pooling our resources through a billion little for-profit insurance companies, we simply set that money aside and pay it through a single pool. it is actually a rather simple idea, but nobody ever got it, and so congress just ignored it (at the bequest of the insurance industry). having Americans control how money is spent is way better than having some company who profits by creating poor health outcomes (aka NOT PAYING), but that message was never delivered and never received. Exactly! Why you would want to spend a sizable chunk of your health care dollars on paying the insurance companies is beyond me.
The CEOs of the Big Five for-profit health insurance companies all took home at least $10 million in 2014, according to each insurers' annual filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC).
Payer CEO compensation ranged from $10.1 million for Humana CEO Bruce D. Broussard to more than $15 million for Aetna CEO Mark Bertolini. Compensation for the Anthem, Cigna and UnitedHealth CEOs also fell in that range. To be fair, each company performed well in 2014--health insurance stocks hit an all-time high in January 2015 and have continued to climb since then. www.fiercehealthpayer.com/story/top-health-insurance-ceo-pay-exceeds-10-million-2014/2015-04-10 And THAT, leads to THIS.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/26/21-graphs-that-show-americas-health-care-prices-are-ludicrous/
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 16:21:26 GMT -5
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
let's cut BOTH by 50%. what do you say?
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Oct 11, 2015 16:22:16 GMT -5
why people love insurance companies is beyond me. i think they are utterly loathesome, and only should be used in the worst situations. Exactly how I feel about government-run programs...and the government wastes billions more than the private companies do for the same services. So why do we want government to run more shit and waste more tax dollars?
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 16:26:12 GMT -5
why people love insurance companies is beyond me. i think they are utterly loathesome, and only should be used in the worst situations. Exactly how I feel about government-run programs...and the government wastes billions more than the private companies do for the same services. So why do we want government to run more shit and waste more tax dollars? for the same reason that i own my house rather than renting it.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Oct 11, 2015 16:30:29 GMT -5
I don't think it will work in the U.S. Because the government fucks up every program it runs. So, are you saying that the "greatest country in the world" can't do anything right? No, it really can't...too many assholes running the ship. We vote on charisma or fads now instead of actual leadership and know-how.
"Oh, let's vote for him so he will be the first black president!"
"Is he a good leader?"
"Who cares? He's black and he'll be president! It's so stylish and PC!"
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 16:32:22 GMT -5
So, are you saying that the "greatest country in the world" can't do anything right? No, it really can't...too many assholes running the ship. We vote on charisma or fads now instead of actual leadership and know-how.
"Oh, let's vote for him so he will be the first black president!"
"Is he a good leader?"
"Who cares? He's black and he'll be president! It's so stylish and PC!"
time to start electing some non-assholes, and get others to do the same. until then, they are OUR assholes. wait. that doesn't sound right..... edit: by the way, if the choice is Barack or Mc-possibly-Insane, i am taking Barack. fortunately, i exercised a better choice.
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Oct 11, 2015 16:36:33 GMT -5
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
If every American citizen is insured from cradle to grave with single payer, then nobody will have to resort to fraud. That being said, you have illegals coming out the wazoo. Not to worry, though. Trump will deport them all. Humanely. Tranquilizer dart, then they wake up in Mexico.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 16:40:50 GMT -5
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
I every American citizen is insured from cradle to grave with single payer, then nobody will have to resort to fraud. That being said, you have illegals coming out the wazoo. Not to worry, though. Trump will deport them all. Humanely. Tranquilizer dart, then they wake up in Mexico.
no. he will build a wall the height of Trump Towers and charge Mexico for it. because he is smart.
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jkapp
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Post by jkapp on Oct 11, 2015 16:49:34 GMT -5
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
I every American citizen is insured from cradle to grave with single payer, then nobody will have to resort to fraud. That being said, you have illegals coming out the wazoo. Not to worry, though. Trump will deport them all. Humanely. Tranquilizer dart, then they wake up in Mexico.
The fraud is coming from the healthcare industry...because government has zero accountability for the dollars they forcibly confiscate from the taxpayers. They have been wasting tens of billions of dollars every year for decades on Medicare and Medicaid. How does that get fixed with a single payer system? Answer: it doesn't, and will only get worse. Government has the most inefficient and overly-complex methods of doing anything. Single-payer will only burdern our economy more than any other social program, wasting more money and causing more economic hardship with our tax dollars than all wars combined. Yet the liberals will cheer it on - like the band playing on as the titanic sank.
If government could prove that it would be able to run such a large program efficiently and cost-effectively, I'd be on board in a second. But considering their examples of current dabbling in healthcare (Medicare, Medicaid, and VA), I would have to say they couldn't run anything even REMOTELY close to efficient, nor anywhere near cost-effective. They couldn't even set up a website for health insurance without spending nearly a billion dollars on it. A billion dollar website, for Christ's sake!!!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 18:05:55 GMT -5
Actually, £930M is closer to $1.425B (after conversion to US$). (still way less than Trump is worth though) i did the math, and was rounding to the nearest billion, as indicated by the number of significant figures carried in my response. edit: was it the word BARELY that bothered you. you're right. i should have just said $1B. Honestly I thought you missed the "£" sign, and were saying "$930M is barely $1B"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 18:09:15 GMT -5
Yeah why pay $50M in CEO compensation when we can (and do) pay $84 BILLION in Medicare/Medicaid fraud and waste. Let's give Medicare to everyone so we can waste BILLIONS more!!
If every American citizen is insured from cradle to grave with single payer, then nobody will have to resort to fraud. That being said, you have illegals coming out the wazoo. Not to worry, though. Trump will deport them all. Humanely. Tranquilizer dart, then they wake up in Mexico.
Exactly. If everyone is covered, there won't be a need for fraud. How can people miss this? There's only fraud because people aren't covered.
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djAdvocate
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 18:12:22 GMT -5
i did the math, and was rounding to the nearest billion, as indicated by the number of significant figures carried in my response. edit: was it the word BARELY that bothered you. you're right. i should have just said $1B. Honestly I thought you missed the "£" sign, and were saying "$930B is barely $1B" LOL! i presume you meant $930M, yes?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2015 18:13:24 GMT -5
Honestly I thought you missed the "£" sign, and were saying "$930B is barely $1B" LOL! i presume you meant $930M, yes? LOL... ummm ... yeah. (I'll go fix)
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 18:15:53 GMT -5
time to start electing some non-assholes, and get others to do the same. until then, they are OUR assholes. wait. that doesn't sound right..... But we don't stop electing assholes, all indications point to continued assholes elected. If we keep electing assholes why would we suddenly expect them to do a good job? i stopped electing assholes. in 1996. as soon as you stop electing assholes, you will be outside of the blame zone, as well.here's my real world example of this. One of my male coworkers came into work complaining about his bad $5 haircut (it really was a bad haircut). Two days later another guy came in with the same bad haircut. He was complaining how stupid it looked. Next day a third guy showed up with the same stupid haircut. Finally as they were all sitting in front of me bitching about their stupid looking haircuts in a staff meeting, I finally had to ask the question I had been dying to, since bad haircut #2. i asked, ok I get the first guy bitching about the dumb haircut, but 2 and 3, why are bitching? They told me it was because the haircut looked stupid. I asked, why did you go to this guy if you knew he didn't do a good job? They both looked at me and said, because it was only $5. you should have asked them if they were bitching about the cost, then. So they both had no reason to expect they would get a good haircut, they went anyway because of the price, and all 3 were unhappy with the results. For some, yet to be explained to me, reason. The people in the US seem to think, despite no evidence, that the Gov't will suddenly get this massive program right. what massive program? seriously. i don't see this as a massive program. pooling insurance should be uber simple. REALLY. YES. THAT IS WHAT I THINK. it makes every other function of government seem super easy to me. it is about as complicated as collecting tolls.All I'm seeing is the bad haircut phenomenon but for higher stakes. i am seeing something far less tangible, and far simpler.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 19:21:31 GMT -5
i am seeing something far less tangible, and far simpler. Administering welfare should be simple. "You make x amount of money, we will give you Y in aid." even if you want to complicated about it and say "of that Y we will direct that toward A, B, and C for you" i think the last time I looked the CBO did a study and there were something like 83 different agencies involved with welfare. US government does nothing simple! The tax code should be simple, you make x, you owe y. We have whole industries devoted to helping people figure out their taxes. For the love of Pete...website design is easy, there are children doing it. The govt couldn't do it for less than 2 billion. You haven't given one concrete example or indication why we think there will be anything but bloat and incompetence? Maybe this will help...let's just say for this thread I am 100% in favor of a single payer system in the US, but I am unsure how it will be run in today's United States. I'm not sure how our system can cope with it. Please give me examples or fact based evidence that this will work. administering welfare is way way way more complicated. pooling insurance is about as complicated as a group savings account that nobody can withdrawl from. seriously, a brain dead parrot could do it in it's sleep. you are comparing an apple to the entire agricultural output of California, Sroo.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 19:23:09 GMT -5
how would it work?
do you mean- what would the FUNDING MECHANISM for SINGLE PAYER be?
you should ask weltz or Virgil how it works in Canada. they are using a single payer system.
but for the record, for at least the third time, i am in favor of a dual system, NOT single payer.
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Post by djAdvocate on Oct 11, 2015 20:05:05 GMT -5
how would it work? do you mean- what would the FUNDING MECHANISM for SINGLE PAYER be? you should ask weltz or Virgil how it works in Canada. they are using a single payer system. but for the record, for at least the third time, i am in favor of a dual system, NOT single payer. I give up, I will assume that my questions are confusing, because I have rephrased it several different ways, and have not made myself understood. ok, sorry. for the record, i am genuinely trying. we are just not getting each other today. hope that it was not too frustrating for you. no offense was intended.
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Post by jkapp on Oct 12, 2015 8:38:23 GMT -5
But we don't stop electing assholes, all indications point to continued assholes elected. If we keep electing assholes why would we suddenly expect them to do a good job? i stopped electing assholes. in 1996. as soon as you stop electing assholes, you will be outside of the blame zone, as well.here's my real world example of this. One of my male coworkers came into work complaining about his bad $5 haircut (it really was a bad haircut). Two days later another guy came in with the same bad haircut. He was complaining how stupid it looked. Next day a third guy showed up with the same stupid haircut. Finally as they were all sitting in front of me bitching about their stupid looking haircuts in a staff meeting, I finally had to ask the question I had been dying to, since bad haircut #2. i asked, ok I get the first guy bitching about the dumb haircut, but 2 and 3, why are bitching? They told me it was because the haircut looked stupid. I asked, why did you go to this guy if you knew he didn't do a good job? They both looked at me and said, because it was only $5. you should have asked them if they were bitching about the cost, then. So they both had no reason to expect they would get a good haircut, they went anyway because of the price, and all 3 were unhappy with the results. For some, yet to be explained to me, reason. The people in the US seem to think, despite no evidence, that the Gov't will suddenly get this massive program right. what massive program? seriously. i don't see this as a massive program. pooling insurance should be uber simple. REALLY. YES. THAT IS WHAT I THINK. it makes every other function of government seem super easy to me. it is about as complicated as collecting tolls.All I'm seeing is the bad haircut phenomenon but for higher stakes. i am seeing something far less tangible, and far simpler. There is no such thing as a simple government program...you should know that by now
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