Is this the next gay wedding cake issue

[Value Buy]

to be hashed out by the courts?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-kindergartener-kicked-out-of-christian-school-for-having-2-moms/ar-AAeSAu3

While we may or may not agree with the "Christian school's decision', I would think the parents cannot win the suit.

[Deleted]

Not unless the school gets government funding.

[Value Buy]

Sept 29, 2015 7:06:39 GMT -5 oped said:

Not unless the school gets government funding.

The bakery never received government funding
I imagine once this case goes to the liberal  Supreme court, they will rewrite our Constitution again.

[Deleted]

No one rewrote the constitution. Unless you are addressing the amendments?

The bakery was not a religious institution separate from state.

[Value Buy]

Sept 29, 2015 7:13:38 GMT -5 oped said:

No one rewrote the constitution. Unless you are addressing the amendments?

The bakery was not a religious institution separate from state.

Our Supreme Court rewrote the Constitution when they okayed Obamacare.
Freedom of Religion is next.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 6:59:12 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

to be hashed out by the courts?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-kindergartener-kicked-out-of-christian-school-for-having-2-moms/ar-AAeSAu3

While we may or may not agree with the "Christian school's decision', I would think the parents cannot win the suit.

I don't understand why Christians do things like this?!?  No matter what your opinion is of anything parents or guardians do- I would think we could ALL agree, it isn't the child's fault.  Is there a better mission field than children? What impression of Christianity do you suppose this kid will have now?

On the flip side, why would gay parents choose a Christian school? Simple: the objective of gay activists is to eventually criminalize Christianity.  Our First Amendment, the only legal guarantee in human history of freedom of speech, of conscience, and of expression, is in grave danger; and as a result humanity itself is in danger of reversing the 5,000 year leap, and taking those first steps into 1,000 years of darkness.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 7:13:38 GMT -5 oped said:

No one rewrote the constitution. Unless you are addressing the amendments?

The bakery was not a religious institution separate from state.

We've been over why you're wrong.  A citizen of the United States of America retains their First Amendment right when they open a business.  The "public accommodation" argument is bogus.  All laws regulating a person's freedom of speech, of religion, of conscience are illegitimate and are therefore null and void.  One day I hope Americans who are wrong on this issue will wake up and realize that their toddler-like  desire to never be criticized or told that they what they are doing is wrong is going to lead to the kind of tyranny which is pretty much normal throughout human history.  America is the exception- hence, "American Exceptionalism".  If Christians lose their rights, hear me now: EVERYONE loses their rights. If any one person is not free, then no one is free.  Everything that is non-violent is permissible. The government has no authority to regulate thoughts, words, or beliefs.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

[thyme4change]

From the article:

Sheena countered. "I would never put my child's emotional wellbeing in an unstable setting like that."

But...I will sue the school in hopes that they are forced to take my child and the child of other same sex couples.


I am all for gay marriage and gay equality, and making cakes outside of your religious affiliations, but I hope this one gets shot down. The school is part of a religious organization, and we can't tell them they have to accept it.




(I am an atheist.)

[chiver78]

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

or perhaps that school just happens to be the best in the area? the Catholic HS that my parents wanted me to attend back in the day, they accepted any student that met the academic qualifications - regardless of their religion, or lack thereof. they just had to attend the mandatory church services alongside the rest of the student body. that was a graduation requirement that wasn't waived for anyone.

I'm more than a few years out of HS now, but I'd be willing to bet that this school would have accepted this child if she met the qualifications (well, 10 years from now, anyway. )

[thyme4change]

Sept 29, 2015 8:27:47 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

or perhaps that school just happens to be the best in the area? the Catholic HS that my parents wanted me to attend back in the day, they accepted any student that met the academic qualifications - regardless of their religion, or lack thereof. they just had to attend the mandatory church services alongside the rest of the student body. that was a graduation requirement that wasn't waived for anyone.

I'm more than a few years out of HS now, but I'd be willing to bet that this school would have accepted this child if she met the qualifications (well, 10 years from now, anyway. )

Many school accept people outside of their faith as a way to proselytize.  It is great to get people while they are kids - much more willing to become believers or convert.  If you have them 5 days a week, 9 months a year - you have a lot of time to convince them that your version of God is the way, the truth and the light.


My friend's kid went to a catholic high school and he is a very faithful catholic, even though his parents are not believers.  

[Tennesseer]

Sept 29, 2015 8:09:16 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 6:59:12 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

to be hashed out by the courts?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-kindergartener-kicked-out-of-christian-school-for-having-2-moms/ar-AAeSAu3

While we may or may not agree with the "Christian school's decision', I would think the parents cannot win the suit.

I don't understand why Christians do things like this?!?  No matter what your opinion is of anything parents or guardians do- I would think we could ALL agree, it isn't the child's fault.  Is there a better mission field than children? What impression of Christianity do you suppose this kid will have now?

On the flip side, why would gay parents choose a Christian school? Simple: the objective of gay activists is to eventually criminalize Christianity.  Our First Amendment, the only legal guarantee in human history of freedom of speech, of conscience, and of expression, is in grave danger; and as a result humanity itself is in danger of reversing the 5,000 year leap, and taking those first steps into 1,000 years of darkness.

The linked article states the school revised the parent and student handbook over the summer. I would like to know out of curiosity if the parents of this child and other parents as well received the handbook before the start of the school year.

I do agree with this poster's first paragraph. It has nothing to do with the child. But then the school's handbook clearly outlines what is not acceptable according to the opening link:

Under the school's statement of nondiscrimination, the handbook declared the school's right to "refuse admission of an applicant or to discontinue enrollment of a student."

"This includes, but is not necessarily limited to, living in, condoning or supporting sexual immorality; practicing homosexual lifestyle or alternative gender identity; promoting such practices; or otherwise having the inability to support the moral principles of the school," the handbook continued, according to the news station.

As for this poster's second paragraph, just more of the same pooppalooza. When Christians are not allowed to attend church services, when Christians are not allowed to pray silently in public schools, when Christians are not allowed to pray and read the bible in their homes, when Christians are not allowed Christian religious study and prayer at a private Christian schools, when Christians are not allowed to attend Christian events, then get back to me and we will review your claim the objective of gay activists (what ever your definition of a gay activist is) is to criminalize Christianity. But until then, just more pooppalooza.

[chiver78]

Sept 29, 2015 8:30:39 GMT -5 thyme4change said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:27:47 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

or perhaps that school just happens to be the best in the area? the Catholic HS that my parents wanted me to attend back in the day, they accepted any student that met the academic qualifications - regardless of their religion, or lack thereof. they just had to attend the mandatory church services alongside the rest of the student body. that was a graduation requirement that wasn't waived for anyone.

I'm more than a few years out of HS now, but I'd be willing to bet that this school would have accepted this child if she met the qualifications (well, 10 years from now, anyway. )

Many school accept people outside of their faith as a way to proselytize.  It is great to get people while they are kids - much more willing to become believers or convert.  If you have them 5 days a week, 9 months a year - you have a lot of time to convince them that your version of God is the way, the truth and the light.


My friend's kid went to a catholic high school and he is a very faithful catholic, even though his parents are not believers.  

exactly. fwiw, I'm with you on hoping this one gets shot down. it doesn't sound like this school receives government funding, so they shouldn't be forced to accept everyone. sucks for the kid if this is her best option for an education, but it is what it is - a private school.

[Opti]

I doubt this will go far. The school has the right to refuse entry and I think similar cases have come up with similar results. Its unfortunate though that one of the Mom's refers to the child's lifestyle instead of the parents.

I am really tired of the Christian and silly criminalization argument. Many Christians do not need to or care to discriminate against gays. Much like most American Catholics believe and use birth control in spite of the official stance of the Pope. That has not led to the criminalization of Catholicism anymore than this issue will lead to criminalization of ultra Orthodox Christianity.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issues.  The mods will make the call, but I believe this qualifies as religious discussion.

[Tennesseer]

And no, this is not the next gay wedding cake issue.  

The school in question is a private, Christian school.  It has the protection of the first Amendment to bar membership based upon its religious beliefs.  The SCOTUS ruling in the case of Boy Scouts of America v. Dale upheld the rights of the Boy Scouts of America to exclude gay youths from membership within their private organization.  Freedom of association was cited by the court.  Of course today, the BSA have changed their own rules (on their own) regarding gay boy scouts and leaders.

The gay wedding cake issue was a public business selling bakery items to all until someone wanted to order a cake for a same-sex marriage reception.

One group is private and the other was public.

[chiver78]

Sept 29, 2015 8:52:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issues.  The mods will make the call, but I believe this qualifies as religious discussion.

this is a CURRENT EVENTS discussion, since this is a current case. it was posted in the appropriate forum, and will remain here as long as nobody starts posting scripture. thanks in advance for your (collective) cooperation.

-chiver mod

[Tennesseer]

Sept 29, 2015 8:52:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issues.  The mods will make the call, but I believe this qualifies as religious discussion.

Interesting comment. Value Buy has always backed you up when one of your threads was moved to another board based upon its content. Yet here you are throwing Valuebuy's thread under the bus.

Valuebuy-take notice.


ETA:

"I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issue."

By your own words, you state it is a political discussion yet you want it moved to the religion discussion board. That sure makes a lot of sense.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 8:46:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

I doubt this will go far. The school has the right to refuse entry and I think similar cases have come up with similar results. Its unfortunate though that one of the Mom's refers to the child's lifestyle instead of the parents.

I am really tired of the Christian and silly criminalization argument. Many Christians do not need to or care to discriminate against gays. Much like most American Catholics believe and use birth control in spite of the official stance of the Pope. That has not led to the criminalization of Catholicism anymore than this issue will lead to criminalization of ultra Orthodox Christianity.

I am not promoting discrimination, simply pointing out that one has a right to discriminate for any reason they may choose. I'd bake a cake, take your picture, and I'd be more than happy to educate the child you ended up with because after an exhaustive search for a healthy, normal home with actual mother and father- yours is the best the state could find. However, if for ANY reason a person were to choose to refuse service to anyone, that is their business. It is not within the legitimate authority of the state to determine what a person shall and shall not do. Legitimate government must always recognize individual liberty, and the right to say, believe, or express in any way any belief, and to do anything non-violent. Government's legitimate role is to support and defend people's natural rights. It is not the role of government to establish doctrine, and regulate individual behavior. Period. We don't have much time to wake up from this nightmare and save civilization.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 8:55:44 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:52:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issues.  The mods will make the call, but I believe this qualifies as religious discussion.

this is a CURRENT EVENTS discussion, since this is a current case. it was posted in the appropriate forum, and will remain here as long as nobody starts posting scripture. thanks in advance for your (collective) cooperation.

-chiver mod

I was referring to the specific post.  Might want to go back and give it a read:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.

Nevertheless, if you say it belongs here- then I shall respond to it. (and see how long MY post lasts )

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2015 8:52:02 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

I am pretty sure this is a POLITICAL discussion, and the FIRST AMENDMENT of the Constitution is at issue, not the religious doctrinal issues.  The mods will make the call, but I believe this qualifies as religious discussion.

Two sentences that seem contradictory to me. This issue will go through the secular courts and their right to discriminate is to be expected to be upheld. IMO no religious discussion really needed.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

It is not exactly ultra-orthodox Christian doctrine that homosexuality is not only a sin, but that sexual sin in general is singled out throughout scripture as uniquely harmful because it is one where the sinner involves another person in their sin.  A person's homosexuality, and/or sexual sin itself may not preclude them from salvation- as Christians we're all going to Heaven sinners saved by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for those sins. We all struggle with sin, and no one walks away from their sin completely, and lives perfect-- and if we could, what would be the point of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the Cross for our sins?

I didn't actually ask the question expecting an answer. It was rhetorical. I thought that would be obvious since they are filing suit. It is clearly their intention to set yet another legal precedent where the state will come into the private lives of people of faith, even into their holy places and dictate what they will and will not do.

Christianity is alredy criminalized in the bakery and photographer cases- as well as the case where the government directed people how they must use their private land / venue.  Sure, these are civil actions- but if you do not see that pointing guns at people and directing them to violate their conscience, or lose their business, or their land, and otherwise taking their money and other property is not defacto criminalization, and that resisting the same would result in actual criminal prosecution, then you do not really understand the problem.

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2015 8:58:59 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:46:52 GMT -5 Opti said:

I doubt this will go far. The school has the right to refuse entry and I think similar cases have come up with similar results. Its unfortunate though that one of the Mom's refers to the child's lifestyle instead of the parents.

I am really tired of the Christian and silly criminalization argument. Many Christians do not need to or care to discriminate against gays. Much like most American Catholics believe and use birth control in spite of the official stance of the Pope. That has not led to the criminalization of Catholicism anymore than this issue will lead to criminalization of ultra Orthodox Christianity.

I am not promoting discrimination, simply pointing out that one has a right to discriminate for any reason they may choose. I'd bake a cake, take your picture, and I'd be more than happy to educate the child you ended up with because after an exhaustive search for a healthy, normal home with actual mother and father- yours is the best the state could find. However, if for ANY reason a person were to choose to refuse service to anyone, that is their business. It is not within the legitimate authority of the state to determine what a person shall and shall not do. Legitimate government must always recognize individual liberty, and the right to say, believe, or express in any way any belief, and to do anything non-violent. Government's legitimate role is to support and defend people's natural rights. It is not the role of government to establish doctrine, and regulate individual behavior. Period. We don't have much time to wake up from this nightmare and save civilization.

That's your beliefs and odds are they will not change.

When America was founded, the public decency laws and behaviors were more restrictive than they are now. We disagree on the role of legitimate government. Taking a is non-violent. However most people would agree they are OK with restricting people from taking dumps in public or even on private property if it affects the neighbors. I'd be surprised if a neighbor took public dumps along your shared property lines daily and just left them there, and your response was TG, legitimate government allows him the free expression to poop outside right next to my property line.

[Green Eyed Lady]

Well? I guess if you ask a question and don't want an answer other than your already-decided opinions, you should say so. Perhaps you could say in your post that you just want to go on and on all by yourself because nobody...and I mean nobody....could possibly understand the issues better than you.

No. I do not see this as pointing guns at people, Paul.  I see it as people making choices and being aware of what those choices entail. If I have a religious objection to selling alcohol, I cannot ask for a job as a bartender and then demand that serving alcohol not be a part of my job. I cannot operate a business under the laws of this land and discriminate against people I do not like. I cannot take a government position and discriminate against people I do not like. I can go to my day job, perform my duties, go home and do what I want even if that includes being on my knees for the other 16 hours. I can go to my church - any day, any time, and worship.  I can say a prayer before dinner - even in a restaurant.  I can ask God to protect the athletes in a sporting even.  Nobody is stopping me.  Nobody is making any of that criminal.  The only thing "criminalized" is discrimination. 

If YOU don't see the potential problems with allowing discrimination - even discrimination dressed up as religious objection - YOU are the one who doesn't see the problem.  You are, I'm assuming, a Caucasian heterosexual male.  You have no clue what it's like to be discriminated against but you may find out if such a thing is allowed.  And THAT, my good man, should be what scares you.

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2015 9:13:54 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:17:53 GMT -5 Green Eyed Lady said:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.  I realize it's not the same in all churches. We have a church run pre-school and that little girl would be welcome there. 

It is not exactly ultra-orthodox Christian doctrine that homosexuality is not only a sin, but that sexual sin in general is singled out throughout scripture as uniquely harmful because it is one where the sinner involves another person in their sin.  A person's homosexuality, and/or sexual sin itself may not preclude them from salvation- as Christians we're all going to Heaven sinners saved by the blood of Jesus Christ shed on the cross for those sins. We all struggle with sin, and no one walks away from their sin completely, and lives perfect-- and if we could, what would be the point of the substitutionary death of Jesus on the Cross for our sins?

I didn't actually ask the question expecting an answer. It was rhetorical. I thought that would be obvious since they are filing suit. It is clearly their intention to set yet another legal precedent where the state will come into the private lives of people of faith, even into their holy places and dictate what they will and will not do.

Christianity is alredy criminalized in the bakery and photographer cases- as well as the case where the government directed people how they must use their private land / venue.  Sure, these are civil actions- but if you do not see that pointing guns at people and directing them to violate their conscience, or lose their business, or their land, and otherwise taking their money and other property is not defacto criminalization, and that resisting the same would result in actual criminal prosecution, then you do not really understand the problem.

If this were really true it would be rape that was considered the huge sexual sin, not homosexuality, not sex outside of marriage.

Some Christians feel the bible is reflective of the times and culture it was written in. Some do not. But perhaps if you want to discuss your view of your particular piece of Christianity, it would do better in a different thread?

Christianity, or at least your brand, is not criminalized by those business cases anymore than Christianity has been criminalized by the fact stoning and crucifiction were never legal in this country to my knowledge.

[chiver78]

Sept 29, 2015 9:01:00 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 8:55:44 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

this is a CURRENT EVENTS discussion, since this is a current case. it was posted in the appropriate forum, and will remain here as long as nobody starts posting scripture. thanks in advance for your (collective) cooperation.

-chiver mod

I was referring to the specific post.  Might want to go back and give it a read:

Perhaps some gay parents chose a Christian school because they are Christians? One is not exclusive of the other...at least not in my church.

Nevertheless, if you say it belongs here- then I shall respond to it. (and see how long MY post lasts )

and take a look at my own post that quoted this one you point out here. you've always been able to post anecdotal content that mentions religion. I don't see where your confusion is. I suggest you take this to PM, either with me or with another mod. I do not want to derail the thread any more than this sidebar already has.

-chiver mod

[Opti]

Sept 29, 2015 9:36:41 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Wait... hasn't it been said in other threads ad nauseum that if a private organization has every right to refuse service to whomever they want?   How is this not moving the goalposts? 

How is it?

Lots of lawsuits get filed every year that don't succeed. The goalposts would only be moved in the unlikely event the two Moms won the lawsuit.

[billisonboard]

Sept 29, 2015 9:42:46 GMT -5 Opti said:

Sept 29, 2015 9:36:41 GMT -5 @sroo4 said:

Wait... hasn't it been said in other threads ad nauseum that if a private organization has every right to refuse service to whomever they want?   How is this not moving the goalposts? 

How is it?

Lots of lawsuits get filed every year that don't succeed. The goalposts would only be moved in the unlikely event the two Moms won the lawsuit.

According to the link in the OP, there isn't even a lawsuit yet.

[Opti]

Good catch Bills. They are seeking a civil rights attorney.

[bean29]

Sept 29, 2015 8:09:16 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

Sept 29, 2015 6:59:12 GMT -5 Value Buy said:

to be hashed out by the courts?


www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-kindergartener-kicked-out-of-christian-school-for-having-2-moms/ar-AAeSAu3

While we may or may not agree with the "Christian school's decision', I would think the parents cannot win the suit.

I don't understand why Christians do things like this?!?  No matter what your opinion is of anything parents or guardians do- I would think we could ALL agree, it isn't the child's fault.  Is there a better mission field than children? What impression of Christianity do you suppose this kid will have now?

On the flip side, why would gay parents choose a Christian school? Simple: the objective of gay activists is to eventually criminalize Christianity.  Our First Amendment, the only legal guarantee in human history of freedom of speech, of conscience, and of expression, is in grave danger; and as a result humanity itself is in danger of reversing the 5,000 year leap, and taking those first steps into 1,000 years of darkness.

IMO that is an unenlightened way of thinking.  Gay parents choose Christian schools because they believe that is the best way to raise their child.  My parents are staunchly catholic.  I know of seven families that were involved in my Christian Upbringing that have children in Gay relationships.  I think only one of those families has children, but those children are front and center in church every week.  There are many sinners in church.  Church calls us to be better individuals, I figure we can pray about something to change.  The lord may move those individuals to end their homosexual relationship or it may move people in the church/the church to change their thinking about homosexual relationships, but when we pray about it, we put it in God's hands and the judgmental tendencies go away and you get acceptance.