Dumb Question about Contractors

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Do they get paid the recoverable depreciation/holdback BEFORE they complete the Punch List or AFTER all of the work is done?

[andi9899]

After. The insurance company won't release it until work is completed and they receive a final bill.

[moneymaven]

I always agree to after. Not just punch list and completed work but I wait to affirm they pass any permits they had to pull.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 6:10:55 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

After. The insurance company won't release it until work is completed and they receive a final bill.

So, if an insurance company released the holdback BEFORE the Punch List and significant work in the contract is done, or done satisfactorily, what should someone do?

[andi9899]

Sept 15, 2015 6:54:52 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Sept 15, 2015 6:10:55 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

After. The insurance company won't release it until work is completed and they receive a final bill.

So, if an insurance company released the holdback BEFORE the Punch List and significant work in the contract is done, or done satisfactorily, what should someone do?

Don't give it to them until the work is done and the adjuster has given the final ok.

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2015 6:54:52 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Sept 15, 2015 6:10:55 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

After. The insurance company won't release it until work is completed and they receive a final bill.

So, if an insurance company released the holdback BEFORE the Punch List and significant work in the contract is done, or done satisfactorily, what should someone do?

was it released to you, or to them? if it was released to them and they are being unresponsive now, I'd be blowing up my insurance company's phone lines.

good luck.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

It's being released to me but, thanks to the symbiotic relationship between adjusters and contractors in this area, the contractor knows it was released.

And is refusing to do any more work or re-do some obvious unsatisfactory work until they get the holdback.

Boneheads.

I just wanted to check that *I* understand the process.

As Chiver knows, there is so much work in these parts leftover from last winter's unprecedented ice dams, contractors can pick and choose who they will work with and under what terms they will work.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Started a related thread.

[ArchietheDragon]

Sept 15, 2015 10:14:46 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

It's being released to me but, thanks to the symbiotic relationship between adjusters and contractors in this area, the contractor knows it was released.

And is refusing to do any more work or re-do some obvious unsatisfactory work until they get the holdback.

Boneheads.

I just wanted to check that *I* understand the process.

As Chiver knows, there is so much work in these parts leftover from last winter's unprecedented ice dams, contractors can pick and choose who they will work with and under what terms they will work.

see who blinks first

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 10:16:09 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:14:46 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

It's being released to me but, thanks to the symbiotic relationship between adjusters and contractors in this area, the contractor knows it was released.

And is refusing to do any more work or re-do some obvious unsatisfactory work until they get the holdback.

Boneheads.

I just wanted to check that *I* understand the process.

As Chiver knows, there is so much work in these parts leftover from last winter's unprecedented ice dams, contractors can pick and choose who they will work with and under what terms they will work.

see who blinks first

Nope. Not gonna play that game.

The tree fell on our house nearly 15 months ago.  We moved out of our house for 10 months so that they could do the work.  We packed, moved, and unpacked everyone and everything 3 different times in those ten months.  We even extended our stay at the last rental by 2 months to give them additional time.  We have been home since May 1st with promise after promise to finish the job.  Some of the work to be done involves genuine safety issues.  And some of what they did is falling apart already.  

Why can't people just do their damn jobs? 

[ArchietheDragon]

Sept 15, 2015 10:24:59 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:16:09 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

see who blinks first

Nope. Not gonna play that game.

The tree fell on our house nearly 15 months ago.  We moved out of our house for 10 months so that they could do the work.  We packed, moved, and unpacked everyone and everything 3 different times in those ten months.  We even extended our stay at the last rental by 2 months to give them additional time.  We have been home since May 1st with promise after promise to finish the job.  Some of the work to be done involves genuine safety issues.  And some of what they did is falling apart already.  

Why can't people just do their damn jobs? 

what is the other option?  

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2015 10:14:46 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

It's being released to me but, thanks to the symbiotic relationship between adjusters and contractors in this area, the contractor knows it was released.

And is refusing to do any more work or re-do some obvious unsatisfactory work until they get the holdback.

Boneheads.

I just wanted to check that *I* understand the process.

As Chiver knows, there is so much work in these parts leftover from last winter's unprecedented ice dams, contractors can pick and choose who they will work with and under what terms they will work.

what are the terms of the contract? quite frankly, all of the contractors I've ever worked with (commercial, not private residential) know that they don't get the last X% until the punchlist is all set.

can I ask what % of the total is the holdback? you can always threaten a call to the AG for breach of contract.

[andi9899]

Get on the phone with the adjuster. Is this one of the preferred providers from their list? If so, get the adjuster or the agent involved. A contractor would have to be pretty stupid to risk being kicked off the list and lose a lot of future work to jerk you around like that. As your agent, I would be on the phone with the guy raising all kinds of hell!

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 11:00:00 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Get on the phone with the adjuster. Is this one of the preferred providers from their list? If so, get the adjuster or the agent involved. A contractor would have to be pretty stupid to risk being kicked off the list and lose a lot of future work to jerk you around like that. As your agent, I would be on the phone with the guy raising all kinds of hell!

How can I word this diplomatically?  The adjuster and contractor work together frequently.  I don't know that anything funky is going on, and I am NOT saying that there is, but I don't like being trapped in a corner.  

I admit that that in May I signed a release (under very heavy pressure from the project manager who no longer works for the contractor) BUT I insisted that the release state that it is "subject to the agreed Punch List" and it does.  The contractor also signed the release.  The Punch List is very thorough -- 3 pages long, single-spaced.  They now do not deny that work on the Punch List is not done.  They say they're just not going to do anything about it until they are paid in full.

We're exploring all of our options.  Was just curious if anyone else has ever dealt with something like this.  

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 10:28:26 GMT -5 chiver78 said:

Sept 15, 2015 10:14:46 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

It's being released to me but, thanks to the symbiotic relationship between adjusters and contractors in this area, the contractor knows it was released.

And is refusing to do any more work or re-do some obvious unsatisfactory work until they get the holdback.

Boneheads.

I just wanted to check that *I* understand the process.

As Chiver knows, there is so much work in these parts leftover from last winter's unprecedented ice dams, contractors can pick and choose who they will work with and under what terms they will work.

what are the terms of the contract? quite frankly, all of the contractors I've ever worked with (commercial, not private residential) know that they don't get the last X% until the punchlist is all set.

can I ask what % of the total is the holdback? you can always threaten a call to the AG for breach of contract.

The holdback is 15%.  

I haven't directly threatened anything yet.  I've been trying to be collaborative and humorously telling them things such as how we are the talk of our small town, how we've run out of believable explanations as to why the work is not done, how we are Angie's List members and want to give them good reviews, etc.  

They don't care.  

I read recent online reviews about how they are dropping customers who thought they had hired these guys.  I also read that their business model is constantly changing.  Apparently, they are making a play for bigger jobs (schools, etc.).  

That's fine, but I hired you a year ago.  Finish MY job before you switch your customer base.

(See my reply to Andi about the Punch List and the release.)

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2015 11:43:48 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:00:00 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Get on the phone with the adjuster. Is this one of the preferred providers from their list? If so, get the adjuster or the agent involved. A contractor would have to be pretty stupid to risk being kicked off the list and lose a lot of future work to jerk you around like that. As your agent, I would be on the phone with the guy raising all kinds of hell!

How can I word this diplomatically?  The adjuster and contractor work together frequently.  I don't know that anything funky is going on, and I am NOT saying that there is, but I don't like being trapped in a corner.  

I admit that that in May I signed a release (under very heavy pressure from the project manager who no longer works for the contractor) BUT I insisted that the release state that it is "subject to the agreed Punch List" and it does.  The contractor also signed the release.  The Punch List is very thorough -- 3 pages long, single-spaced.  They now do not deny that work on the Punch List is not done.  They say they're just not going to do anything about it until they are paid in full.

We're exploring all of our options.  Was just curious if anyone else has ever dealt with something like this.  

if they signed it subject to the punch list, then they are SOL. obviously you're SOL until you get the work done, but they would lose any argument or court case out of the gate as breach of contract.

I'd suggest contacting a lawyer, if you haven't already. has your insurance company been at all helpful with this?





ETA: what company is this? you can PM me, that's cool. just want to know who to steer my parents clear of, with any work that my dad can't do himself. oy.

[ArchietheDragon]

Sept 15, 2015 11:43:48 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Sept 15, 2015 11:00:00 GMT -5 andi9899 said:

Get on the phone with the adjuster. Is this one of the preferred providers from their list? If so, get the adjuster or the agent involved. A contractor would have to be pretty stupid to risk being kicked off the list and lose a lot of future work to jerk you around like that. As your agent, I would be on the phone with the guy raising all kinds of hell!

How can I word this diplomatically?  The adjuster and contractor work together frequently.  I don't know that anything funky is going on, and I am NOT saying that there is, but I don't like being trapped in a corner.  

I admit that that in May I signed a release (under very heavy pressure from the project manager who no longer works for the contractor) BUT I insisted that the release state that it is "subject to the agreed Punch List" and it does.  The contractor also signed the release.  The Punch List is very thorough -- 3 pages long, single-spaced.  They now do not deny that work on the Punch List is not done.  They say they're just not going to do anything about it until they are paid in full.

We're exploring all of our options.  Was just curious if anyone else has ever dealt with something like this.  

Most releases I have seen protect the owner from paying the contractor and having them say they were never paid.  The owner pays, the contractor signs off they have been paid. So in this case, did the contractor sign off on being paid and you haven't paid them yet?

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Here is the release:

Dear GRG,

As required by your insurance company, we respectfully request that you complete the bottom of this for, indicating that the authorized work has been completed.
**************************************************************

I, GRG, do hereby acknowledge that all work has been completed to my satisfaction for the work performed at 123 Main Street.

(Handwritten by Project Manager) Pending Punch List as agreed

The signing of this document activates your warranty period as outlined in your contract and/or documents.

/s/GRG

Thank you,
/s/ Owner of Construction Company

[ArchietheDragon]

You've still got the money. Make them blink first!

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

So, help me word an email to that effect (that doesn't read GFY, LOL).

I'm pissed off and not thinking as deftly as I can (and don't tell me to calm down, LOL!).

I have been playing the "sweet but wise" homeowner until now but my patience is gone. I don't want to come off too strong because they will just dig in their heels. They don't need my job nor my $$, really. I need to make it worth their while to finish. Sure, I can sue, but they are big enough that they have a firm on retainer and will drag it out for years. I can't wait years and they know it. I have a rickety back porch (that they supposedly rebuilt) at my most-used back door that is missing an exterior light fixture. I am missing downspouts for my gutters. I have windows that won't open. I am missing just about every outlet cover and switch plate cover in the house. Paint is cracking and bubbling and peeling on the inside. They haven't painted the exterior yet.

Shall I continue?

Someone has to finish this job. I suspect, in the end, I will have to hire a different contractor to do it.

Oy. What a f'n endless nightmare. (Said with complete compassion for those in California who no longer have any part of their home.)

[ArchietheDragon]

yIKES.. That seems like a lot more than punch list... How much is the 15% you are holding back? It is enough to hire another contractor to finish that?

[bean29]

Get an estimate from another contractor to complete the work. Threaten to have another contractor complete the work and deduct it from the retainer.  If the retainer is not enough, take them to small claims court for the difference.

Contact your Agent, and ask if he has any leverage.  DH is an agent, and does steer his customers to certain contractors sometimes, but he does have leverage with them...they want the next job and the next job down the line.  Even if they decide to go after a different type of business, they owe part of their past success to that relationship. 

Not sure I would have signed the release activating the warranty period with the back porch in the condition it is in, and the paint not being up to snuff.  I know the outlet covers are part of the contract, but you could just assign one of your kids? and pay them $10-15/hour and deduct it from the contract. 

I work for a property management company.  We own about 50+ buildings.  Even we are having trouble getting contractors to rate our work as a priority.  There is no way in hell I would pay them without them being 100% done.  You will not have any leverage to get them back to complete the work if you pay them out.  It seems unethical for them to push for payment if they know they have not completed the work.

File a complaint with the BBB or Angie's list now.  Every time I have filed a complaint with BBB the people have responded immediately to resolve the issue so they don't have a complaint out there.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 13:18:02 GMT -5 ArchietheDragon said:

yIKES.. That seems like a lot more than punch list... How much is the 15% you are holding back? It is enough to hire another contractor to finish that?

I don't think it will be enough.  A good exterior paint job in these parts is $$$$$.  Interior re-painting also $$$$.  That all hinges on finding a painter who knows what the he!! they are doing.  Have you tried recently to find a competent tradesperson?  With all of the ice dams in these parts, anyone with access to a printer is advertising for repair work -- even if they don't know which end of a paintbrush to hold.  The better/best guys just don't bother to answer the phone they have so much work.  These guys tricked us -- they sprayed the interior during the winter when there were 6 feet of snow on the ground and we weren't keeping such a close eye on the house.  So 

I'm not exaggerating when I say my house is in worse shape than before the tree fell.

Oy.  

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Can texts be printed out somehow? Even if I have to forward them to my email or something? I have been raising issues with the Project Manager since November both in email and in text. I need to preserve the texts somehow.

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

I have been asking for the warranty and have never received it.

Besides, everything on the Punch List is, IMHO, still not in the warranty period because the work hasn't been done.

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2015 13:42:47 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

Can texts be printed out somehow? Even if I have to forward them to my email or something? I have been raising issues with the Project Manager since November both in email and in text. I need to preserve the texts somehow.

Call your mobile provider. it may cost you a fee, but they should be able to do it.

[chiver78]

Sept 15, 2015 13:43:22 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

I have been asking for the warranty and have never received it.

start sending things certified letter, with deadlines for responses. keep notes as to which requests have been ignored, etc.

[Chocolate Lover]

Sept 15, 2015 13:15:50 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So, help me word an email to that effect (that doesn't read GFY, LOL).

I'm pissed off and not thinking as deftly as I can (and don't tell me to calm down, LOL!).

I have been playing the "sweet but wise" homeowner until now but my patience is gone. I don't want to come off too strong because they will just dig in their heels. They don't need my job nor my $$, really. I need to make it worth their while to finish. Sure, I can sue, but they are big enough that they have a firm on retainer and will drag it out for years. I can't wait years and they know it. I have a rickety back porch (that they supposedly rebuilt) at my most-used back door that is missing an exterior light fixture. I am missing downspouts for my gutters. I have windows that won't open. I am missing just about every outlet cover and switch plate cover in the house. Paint is cracking and bubbling and peeling on the inside. They haven't painted the exterior yet.

Shall I continue?

Someone has to finish this job. I suspect, in the end, I will have to hire a different contractor to do it.

Oy. What a f'n endless nightmare. (Said with complete compassion for those in California who no longer have any part of their home.)

Sounds like they wouldn't pass a final inspection either if they have permits. They better have permits. Call the permit department and at least get a failed inspection on record even if they have no power to make them finish. Every little bit of paper helps. Good luck!

ETA: And if you haven't yet, look up the state contractor licensing board and complain to them too. 

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

I called the adjuster and very pleasantly asked him to give me a call back.

I am wondering if he even saw the release.

The contractors pulled a similar stunt in April by somehow convincing out mortgage bank to release money without our signatures. Yup. I reamed the mortgage bank a new one, but, LOL, then our loan got sold to a new bank. Seriously. I couldn't make this stuff up if I tried.

It's going to be really, really hard not to publish an online review until all is said and done. So, if I seem a little out-of-sorts here, do NOT tell me to calm down. I will come to your house and cut you. (J/K!!!!!)

[GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl]

Sept 15, 2015 13:50:22 GMT -5 Chocolate Lover said:

Sept 15, 2015 13:15:50 GMT -5 GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl said:

So, help me word an email to that effect (that doesn't read GFY, LOL).

I'm pissed off and not thinking as deftly as I can (and don't tell me to calm down, LOL!).

I have been playing the "sweet but wise" homeowner until now but my patience is gone. I don't want to come off too strong because they will just dig in their heels. They don't need my job nor my $$, really. I need to make it worth their while to finish. Sure, I can sue, but they are big enough that they have a firm on retainer and will drag it out for years. I can't wait years and they know it. I have a rickety back porch (that they supposedly rebuilt) at my most-used back door that is missing an exterior light fixture. I am missing downspouts for my gutters. I have windows that won't open. I am missing just about every outlet cover and switch plate cover in the house. Paint is cracking and bubbling and peeling on the inside. They haven't painted the exterior yet.

Shall I continue?

Someone has to finish this job. I suspect, in the end, I will have to hire a different contractor to do it.

Oy. What a f'n endless nightmare. (Said with complete compassion for those in California who no longer have any part of their home.)

Sounds like they wouldn't pass a final inspection either if they have permits. They better have permits. Call the permit department and at least get a failed inspection on record even if they have no power to make them finish. Every little bit of paper helps. Good luck!

Cl, I called the town building department today under the cover of wanting to make sure I had an occupancy permit if I needed one because we are nearing the finish and they said I didn't need one.  They also said the building inspector signed off on the permits in February.  Do I ask him to come back out?  What can he do now?