happyhoix
Distinguished Associate
Joined: Oct 7, 2011 7:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 20,905
|
Post by happyhoix on Aug 26, 2015 14:39:30 GMT -5
At the same time SF was trying to be proactive to help homeless people, most other cities try to run them off. It isn't unheard of for some cities to stick homeless people on buses with one way tickets to anyplace else but there.
So I'm not surprised homeless people gravitated to SF.
It would be nice if every place with a population over a certain size had to provide x number of shelter spots for homeless people, to avoid both issues.
You can't 'fix' the long term homeless by cutting their hair and putting them in nice clothes. Most of these people are mentally ill, or mentally challenged, or have physical impairments, or are soldiers with PTSD or long term drug or alcohol addicts. Some will never 'transition out.' Things that would encourage most of us - incentives to get a job, for instance - won't help people who are so paranoid they think birds are spying on them and dogs are talking to them.
Our country decided long ago that they were not going to house these people. If they have insurance or wealthy family members who can pay for their treatment, they have someplace to go. If they don't, they live under a bridge. Cities that don't like it can attempt to run them off, or buy them a bus ticket so they are someone else's problem.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,165 
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 14:40:46 GMT -5
So the places that have the resources to serve the population, keep attracting more of the population creating a greater shortage of resources? i don't think that was exactly the point, but it is part of it. part of it is transportation, and proximity of services. if you are located within (3) blocks of help, that is quite different than being located within (30) miles of help, if you have no car, no public transport, and no permanent address. |
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,165
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 14:42:24 GMT -5
Does this help or hurt by creating long term dependence? Even in SF where there was a focused outreach program relatively few transitioned out. there are better programs. the one implemented in Salt Lake City reduced homelessness by over 90% |
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 26, 2015 15:09:40 GMT -5
Does this help or hurt by creating long term dependence? Even in SF where there was a focused outreach program relatively few transitioned out. there are better programs. the one implemented in Salt Lake City reduced homelessness by over 90% Seems like a good model. However a lot of the success appears to be because of the heavy investment by the Mormon Church based on this article. www.sfgate.com/nation/article/Salt-Lake-City-a-model-for-S-F-on-homeless-5587357.phpNot every city is HQ to a religious organization. I daresay there would be a decent number of people who would refuse help from any religious organization as well based on the comments from other posters on this board. Just speculation, but I would guess with the city being home to a religious HQ, and all, there may be more of a willingness to turn outside yourself for support. Plus, as the article states, SF attracts more homeless than does SLC. To a certain extent (as noted in the article) that population tends to be self defeating. |
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 26, 2015 15:32:28 GMT -5
Both Asheville NC and Chattanooga TN, two relatively LCOL areas, have downtown areas where builders are erecting lots of very expensive condo units - but almost no housing for the middle class or poor people. I understand that builders make more money on the higher end units, but in the interests of having a balanced community (and for giving the waitresses and bartenders at the high end restaurants downtown the opportunity to actually live where they work) I don't know why, when the city issues building permits, they can't require the builders to also build a certain ratio of middle and lower income housing units, too. Say, for every million dollar condo you build in the heart of the ritzy downtown neighborhood, you have to also build 10 moderate priced town homes and one lower income apartment building in the less ritzy neighborhoods. Unless cities are only interested in expanding their high end neighborhoods and pushing all the middle and low income people out to the decaying suburbs... That is required in some areas. In addition look up the Low Income Housing Tax Credit. Problem is the people in the less ritzy areas don't want high density, taxpayer subsidized housing in their area. The high density is the only way this becomes remotely feasible from an economic point of view. You can't force a company to build something at a loss. I would say that would be a no brainer win in court. As much as we don't like to admit it, there is a huge correlation between crime, low income, and low performance in schools. How would you like to have a 250 unit low income/HUD complex plopped down one block from your house? BTW - they only have 75 parking spots and no green space so of course no one is going to be parking their oil leaking beater in front of your house (and sometimes blocking your driveway) and the kids won't be playing in the streets. Yep, and nope - there won't be any increase in drug activity at all. Never mind your garage getting tagged because it now falls into some gang's territory. That's just artwork. And the police cars screaming by at 2am on the latest disorderly call? You get used to it after awhile. |
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,868 
|
Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2015 15:42:36 GMT -5
Yup, thanks but no thanks.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,165
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 16:25:46 GMT -5
there are better programs. the one implemented in Salt Lake City reduced homelessness by over 90% Seems like a good model. However a lot of the success appears to be because of the heavy investment by the Mormon Church based on this article. it has been successfully implemented elsewhere, as well- as in "outside of Utah". here is something i learned about advertising: if it is ineffective, it is the most expensive advertising you can do, no matter what the cost. the same applies to this problem. |
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 26, 2015 16:43:04 GMT -5
Seems like a good model. However a lot of the success appears to be because of the heavy investment by the Mormon Church based on this article. it has been successfully implemented elsewhere, as well- as in "outside of Utah". here is something i learned about advertising: if it is ineffective, it is the most expensive advertising you can do, no matter what the cost. the same applies to this problem. We're trying the same thing in Chicago (and apparently have been for awhile- who knew?). I guess this is one area where we lead the country in something for a change. articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-05/news/ct-met-homelessness-20130305_1_homeless-people-end-homlessness-fight-homelessness/3What is reported in the article seems to be at stark odds with what I observe walking to and from the train station every day. This is my second stint working downtown and the panhandlers are much more numerous than they were last time, yet if the article is to be believed the numbers have been significantly reduced. |
|
jkapp
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 23, 2010 12:05:08 GMT -5
Posts: 5,416
|
Post by jkapp on Aug 26, 2015 16:46:08 GMT -5
But if we decide to help the poor and needy we could put a big dent into the problem just by reducing the DOD budget by as little as 10/%. Although, some people might get upset if we cut defense spending claiming that we might become "defenseless" and God forbid, some other country might have to do more and not just expect US to take care of every problem. And the folks at Boeing, Northrup, Haliburton might get upset too because we may not buy the useless shit that they keep churning and overcharging for. Homeless and poor! What's that? We need our planes and rockets and ships not food and shelter! Captain, you say that LA County has 10 million inhabitants? Holly cow! That's almost the entire population of Pennsylvania! Since healthcare spending and public pension spending is just as much as defense spending, then why don't we cut 10% of one of those? Although some people will get upset if we cut spending claiming that we might cause people to "die in the streets" and God forbid, some people might actually have to pay their own way and not just expect US taxpayers to take care of every problem. Etc etc etc... |
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Aug 26, 2015 16:54:23 GMT -5
But if we decide to help the poor and needy we could put a big dent into the problem just by reducing the DOD budget by as little as 10/%. Although, some people might get upset if we cut defense spending claiming that we might become "defenseless" and God forbid, some other country might have to do more and not just expect US to take care of every problem. And the folks at Boeing, Northrup, Haliburton might get upset too because we may not buy the useless shit that they keep churning and overcharging for. Homeless and poor! What's that? We need our planes and rockets and ships not food and shelter! Captain, you say that LA County has 10 million inhabitants? Holly cow! That's almost the entire population of Pennsylvania! Since healthcare spending and public pension spending is just as much as defense spending, then why don't we cut 10% of one of those? Although some people will get upset if we cut spending claiming that we might cause people to "die in the streets" and God forbid, some people might actually have to pay their own way and not just expect US taxpayers to take care of every problem. Etc etc etc... So monthly FMR for a ZERO bedroom in HCOLAs is 30% HIGHER than the average monthly disability payment (one - but clearly not the only - factor in our high numbers of homeless) and you want to suggest at CUT? Okay, then . . . |
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,165
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 26, 2015 16:54:30 GMT -5
it has been successfully implemented elsewhere, as well- as in "outside of Utah". here is something i learned about advertising: if it is ineffective, it is the most expensive advertising you can do, no matter what the cost. the same applies to this problem. We're trying the same thing in Chicago (and apparently have been for awhile- who knew?). I guess this is one area where we lead the country in something for a change. articles.chicagotribune.com/2013-03-05/news/ct-met-homelessness-20130305_1_homeless-people-end-homlessness-fight-homelessness/3What is reported in the article seems to be at stark odds with what I observe walking to and from the train station every day. This is my second stint working downtown and the panhandlers are much more numerous than they were last time, yet if the article is to be believed the numbers have been significantly reduced. keep in mind that this program is designed to go after the CHRONICALLY HOMELESS (because they constitute a large percentage of the overall cost of homelessness, even though they are a small fraction of the overall population), not the TRANSIENT HOMELESS. there is no reason the program could not be applied to other populations, but if it only appears to make a small dent in the overall numbers, that might be why. |
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,868
|
Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2015 17:03:57 GMT -5
Since healthcare spending and public pension spending is just as much as defense spending, then why don't we cut 10% of one of those? Although some people will get upset if we cut spending claiming that we might cause people to "die in the streets" and God forbid, some people might actually have to pay their own way and not just expect US taxpayers to take care of every problem. Etc etc etc... So monthly FMR for a ZERO bedroom in HCOLAs is 30% HIGHER than the average monthly disability payment (one - but clearly not the only - factor in our high numbers of homeless) and you want to suggest at CUT? Okay, then . . . No one has the right to live wherever they feel like it. Especially if they can't afford it. It's not the taxpayers job to provide a lifestyle for someone else. |
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Aug 26, 2015 17:06:20 GMT -5
So monthly FMR for a ZERO bedroom in HCOLAs is 30% HIGHER than the average monthly disability payment (one - but clearly not the only - factor in our high numbers of homeless) and you want to suggest at CUT? Okay, then . . . No one has the right to live wherever they feel like it. Especially if they can't afford it. It's not the taxpayers job to provide a lifestyle for someone else. Well maybe this is just me, but I sure as *heck* would not call $675 per month of a disability payment for someone with multiple and complicated physical, emotional, social and mental health problems (often severe) "providing a lifestyle" - - - but whatever  . |
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,868
|
Post by zibazinski on Aug 26, 2015 17:08:40 GMT -5
No one is expected to live off just that. But if that's all you have, you rent a room or live frugally. Never worked? No savings or family? Very odd. But that money might go a lot farther in a less expensive area.
|
|
kittensaver
Junior Associate
We cannot do great things. We can only do small things with great love. - Mother Teresa
Joined: Nov 22, 2011 16:16:36 GMT -5
Posts: 7,983
|
Post by kittensaver on Aug 26, 2015 17:27:55 GMT -5
No one is expected to live off just that. Ah, but unfortunately yes they are. On a meta-level, "everyone" out there expects "the government" to care for the neediest in our society. But they don't want to pay for it!
But if that's all you have, you rent a room or live frugally. Many/most already do. Don't forget that "a room" is a ZERO bedroom with an astronomical FMR compared to the size of a disability check. PART - but clearly not all - of our homeless problem can be traced back to the gap/disconnect between rent payments and the lack of affordable housing. I'm NOT addressing the scammers of the world - they get no sympathy from me. I'm addressing the truly disabled who are stigmatized every day and from every angle in our culture. ETA: and some of the stigma they have to live with and try to fend off is being lumped in together with "system scammers" - just sayin'.
Never worked? No savings or family? Very odd. Why is this odd? Do you actually KNOW any severely psychiatrically disabled people? If you did, you would have observed their issues and barriers and would understand why they can't get or stay employed, and why sometimes their families must distance themselves in order to survive and not crack themselves. If you don't believe me, take a gander at PatStab's posts. They are heartbreaking but perfectly illustrate what I'm talking about.
But that money might go a lot farther in a less expensive area. Are you suggesting that someone with few or no work/life skills, many complicated issues and barriers and no social support systems just up and move to a "less expensive area"? How do you propose they do that when they have no financial resources? If your child or your relative was severely disabled would you propose to send them off to an area where there are no services and supports for them?  And ETA: how do you think the NIMBY-ers in those communities would take to having severely disabled people with multiple problems and barriers shipped off to them simply because they are in a LCOLA? 
|
|
mroped
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 17, 2014 17:36:56 GMT -5
Posts: 3,453
|
Post by mroped on Aug 26, 2015 17:52:30 GMT -5
People draw pensions because they put money in that fund and/or was matched by their employer.
None of the defense contractors spend their money towards the product that they make.
Moreover, their very highly priced products sometimes don't work ie F35.
Healthcare is amongst the basic human rights. Nobody's asking and nobody is given a golden parachute plan from the public funds. On the other hand CEOs and what nots at the defense contractors walk away with millions in bonuses for a job"well done". How well is it done if it still not working? And is useless too!
The Aarmy turned it down, so did the Navy and Marines and yet somehow they manage to bilk the government for it.
The government, of course through public funding, funds the research for all this useless toys.
A while back I read an article that stated that Northrop was given $125 billion for the research in the matter of the F35.
There are decent size countries in this world that don't have a GDP that size! And we spend it on something that would bring about destruction? All the while we are suppose to neglect our elderly and ill and children and poor?
How about those that went and served this country and got hurt by the very weapons that we are funding? Are we suppose to forget about all that and yet spend woodles on things that are not always necessary just so we can claim that we are the most powerful nation in the world?
Define powerful for me please!
|
|
The Captain
Junior Associate
Hugs are good...
Joined: Jan 4, 2011 16:21:23 GMT -5
Posts: 8,717
Location: State of confusion
Favorite Drink: Whinnnne
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 27, 2015 8:48:34 GMT -5
keep in mind that this program is designed to go after the CHRONICALLY HOMELESS (because they constitute a large percentage of the overall cost of homelessness, even though they are a small fraction of the overall population), not the TRANSIENT HOMELESS. there is no reason the program could not be applied to other populations, but if it only appears to make a small dent in the overall numbers, that might be why. Wait? Are you talking about the Chicago program(s)? I thought they attempted to address both (like with the rent assistance - that would address possible transient homeless by preventing it, right? |
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,165
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on Aug 27, 2015 10:59:21 GMT -5
keep in mind that this program is designed to go after the CHRONICALLY HOMELESS (because they constitute a large percentage of the overall cost of homelessness, even though they are a small fraction of the overall population), not the TRANSIENT HOMELESS. there is no reason the program could not be applied to other populations, but if it only appears to make a small dent in the overall numbers, that might be why. Wait? Are you talking about the Chicago program(s)? I thought they attempted to address both (like with the rent assistance - that would address possible transient homeless by preventing it, right? i was talking about HOUSING FIRST. that is what started in Utah. did Chicago do something different? |
|
