chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 13:43:10 GMT -5
I've got 2 companies coming to my home next Friday, with a 3rd working on a design before they come out in person. We're just at the feasibility stage of all of this, but now I'm starting to look at the money side of it. I can see cash purchases, solar leases, or 0% down loans to finance the purchase.
which option did you choose, and why? what kind of savings should I expect down the road?
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Aug 19, 2015 13:50:05 GMT -5
Why are you doing it?
Every time we've bothered to do the math it's never made sense. Our electric bill is so low that even with a 20% savings it would take about 15 years to recover the investment. At that point you would need to start replacing them.
Even in AZ the math didn't work. There were existing panels that were part of a solar assist for a former pool (the 2nd owners took out). After investigating I think we were at about a 10 year cost recovery. That would have been just in time to save our renter's utility bills.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 13:59:36 GMT -5
I'm considering all options to save $ in my poorly-insulated house, including having Mass Save come out and do an energy assessment on the place as well. I'm hearing that they will blow insulation into crawl spaces if what's there is insufficient (it was an observation during my home inspection that there wasn't an optimal amount of insulation, but it wasn't a critical item). one of my projects for next summer is to replace all the windows. I'll be looking at Power products then.
so I'm looking at solar for reducing electric costs in the summer. with the dog, I've been running the AC pretty much all the time - not at a freezer temp, either - and my bill's been over $200 each of the past 2 months. in the winter, it was under $30/month. the gas bill, though.....right now, that's $20/month. it was close to $200/month the first few months I was there.
I put my contact information into a form that gave it to a few different solar companies, and now I'm just trying to compare apples to apples among the lot of them. whether it's the right move for me at all is a different discussion entirely.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 19, 2015 14:06:30 GMT -5
I think the insulation problem would need to be tackled first. Even if you're getting "cheap" solar power, you'd still be using more energy than necessary to heat/cool your home. New windows and insulation will probably make the biggest impact. If not, that's the point at which I'd start investigating alternative energy sources.
(I know this doesn't answer the question in the OP... sorry!)
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Aug 19, 2015 14:12:10 GMT -5
How big is the house? That's about what my bills are like for ~2500 sqft, well insulated.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 14:17:52 GMT -5
working on the insulation problem concurrently and the drafty windows are next year's project. I already spent way too much this year on the house. it's just really shocking to my wallet to see the price jump that comes with using AC all the time (I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have the dog...) even at mid-70s temps. I figure it's worth a day of my time to have a couple companies come out to check out the house and run some numbers to see what kind of savings I could get from a solar setup. the local electric company just sucks at life, and they keep raising their rates. my house is in complete sun for almost all of the day, so solar seems like a good idea to pursue. if it doesn't end up making sense, I won't go that route. yogiii, my house is a hair under 1200sf, built in 1960.
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yogiii
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Post by yogiii on Aug 19, 2015 14:20:11 GMT -5
Whatever you do stay away from leasing. They often have long terms 10-20 years and if your roof has a problem, you need one of their "specialists" to put the panels back up.
Solar will just keep getting cheaper, so I'd wait. I hope the insulation and windows give you some decent savings.
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milee
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Post by milee on Aug 19, 2015 14:20:50 GMT -5
Search for other threads on it, but in the past, I've done a pretty lengthy write up on things to consider (that the solar companies aren't going to tell you.)
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ArchietheDragon
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Post by ArchietheDragon on Aug 19, 2015 14:22:31 GMT -5
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 14:24:52 GMT -5
Search for other threads on it, but in the past, I've done a pretty lengthy write up on things to consider (that the solar companies aren't going to tell you.) thanks. I am just really starting to look into this, so I hadn't really paid attention when other people brought it up in threads. I will definitely search for your post(s) yogiii, all 3 of the companies that contacted me offered 20-year leases in their initial pitches. I would absolutely ask for a complete comparison of all pricing options to consider before I did anything for sure. and now I have milee's list to go find and include in my questions (as appropriate) as well.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 19, 2015 14:28:36 GMT -5
Why are you doing it?
Every time we've bothered to do the math it's never made sense. Our electric bill is so low that even with a 20% savings it would take about 15 years to recover the investment. At that point you would need to start replacing them.
Even in AZ the math didn't work. There were existing panels that were part of a solar assist for a former pool (the 2nd owners took out). After investigating I think we were at about a 10 year cost recovery. That would have been just in time to save our renter's utility bills. TD's run the numbers too and they don't work for us either. Granted, we live in the PNW where we don't have the sun that you do in AZ, but I can't imagine that if it doesn't work in AZ, then where would it work? But electricity is cheap here and we figured that it would be a 20+ year payout for us. Not worth it. That being said, our vet has solar panels. The vet's location is different and far enough inland that they don't get quite as much rain as we do in the winter. However, the reason why they do it is because they are more environmentally concerned and not quite as concerned about saving $$ and have flat out said that they're not really saving money. They also drive a Leaf.
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Lizard Queen
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Post by Lizard Queen on Aug 19, 2015 14:28:57 GMT -5
How about a well-placed shade tree? (Obviously, a longer-term solution.) I wonder how much a bigger one would cost to buy/plant? My house doesn't have any insulation in the walls, yet it feels sort of like a cave in the summer due to a big ass oak on the southern corner (plus several other big-ass oaks nearby).
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 19, 2015 14:29:41 GMT -5
working on the insulation problem concurrently and the drafty windows are next year's project. I already spent way too much this year on the house. it's just really shocking to my wallet to see the price jump that comes with using AC all the time (I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have the dog...) even at mid-70s temps. I figure it's worth a day of my time to have a couple companies come out to check out the house and run some numbers to see what kind of savings I could get from a solar setup. the local electric company just sucks at life, and they keep raising their rates. my house is in complete sun for almost all of the day, so solar seems like a good idea to pursue. if it doesn't end up making sense, I won't go that route. yogiii, my house is a hair under 1200sf, built in 1960. Why? According to your numbers, it is pretty much even, in the opposite direction, of what you spent over the winter to heat the house. Just in gas instead of electricity.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Aug 19, 2015 14:31:12 GMT -5
What I would do is update everything that you can update before looking at solar panels. That includes the windows, doors and insulation. Once you get those done, then solar panels may not make sense.
Just because you are making your own electricity is still wasteful if you are losing too much of it due to inadequacies of your home.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 14:35:47 GMT -5
working on the insulation problem concurrently and the drafty windows are next year's project. I already spent way too much this year on the house. it's just really shocking to my wallet to see the price jump that comes with using AC all the time (I wouldn't be doing it if I didn't have the dog...) even at mid-70s temps. I figure it's worth a day of my time to have a couple companies come out to check out the house and run some numbers to see what kind of savings I could get from a solar setup. the local electric company just sucks at life, and they keep raising their rates. my house is in complete sun for almost all of the day, so solar seems like a good idea to pursue. if it doesn't end up making sense, I won't go that route. yogiii, my house is a hair under 1200sf, built in 1960. Why? According to your numbers, it is pretty much even, in the opposite direction, of what you spent over the winter to heat the house. Just in gas instead of electricity. because if I wasn't running the AC at all, my bill would be a ton lower? I loved summers at the old place for utility costs, I was never there so I just left the windows half open. pipes don't burst from being too warm, now...
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 14:37:53 GMT -5
What I would do is update everything that you can update before looking at solar panels. That includes the windows, doors and insulation. Once you get those done, then solar panels may not make sense. Just because you are making your own electricity is still wasteful if you are losing too much of it due to inadequacies of your home. valid. but I'm not absolutely doing solar panels if it doesn't end up making sense. the price quotes I'll get from these companies aren't going to increase as time goes on, IMHO. someone else already said it - the price of this technology will continue to come down. my savings may decrease as I make my house more energy efficient, and it may not end up making sense like you say. but I'm not signing on for anything next Friday when the sales guys come out.
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midjd
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Post by midjd on Aug 19, 2015 14:41:34 GMT -5
How many kWh do you use in a month? $200/mo doesn't seem extreme, but I guess it depends on your electricity rate.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 19, 2015 14:55:59 GMT -5
Why? According to your numbers, it is pretty much even, in the opposite direction, of what you spent over the winter to heat the house. Just in gas instead of electricity. because if I wasn't running the AC at all, my bill would be a ton lower? I loved summers at the old place for utility costs, I was never there so I just left the windows half open. pipes don't burst from being too warm, now... Heat doesn't burst pipes, true, but will open windows be adequate cooling for the dog? I can't fathom anyone not using the AC in summer, especially when I hear the complaints from all over about the heat/humidity.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 15:02:43 GMT -5
How many kWh do you use in a month? $200/mo doesn't seem extreme, but I guess it depends on your electricity rate. last bill was 668 kWh, the month before was 402. looks like Feb/March (the first 2 full months in the house) were around 250 kWh.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 15:04:25 GMT -5
because if I wasn't running the AC at all, my bill would be a ton lower? I loved summers at the old place for utility costs, I was never there so I just left the windows half open. pipes don't burst from being too warm, now... Heat does burst pipes, true, but will open windows be adequate cooling for the dog? I can't fathom anyone not using the AC in summer, especially when I hear the complaints from all over about the heat/humidity. not really, because she's too dumb to not chew her way through the screens. we can't open the largest windows or put a screen on the front door because she would go straight through them. if it were just me, I'd have all the doors and windows open. I love fresh air.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Aug 19, 2015 15:04:41 GMT -5
Why are you doing it?
Every time we've bothered to do the math it's never made sense. Our electric bill is so low that even with a 20% savings it would take about 15 years to recover the investment. At that point you would need to start replacing them.
Even in AZ the math didn't work. There were existing panels that were part of a solar assist for a former pool (the 2nd owners took out). After investigating I think we were at about a 10 year cost recovery. That would have been just in time to save our renter's utility bills. TD's run the numbers too and they don't work for us either. Granted, we live in the PNW where we don't have the sun that you do in AZ, but I can't imagine that if it doesn't work in AZ, then where would it work? But electricity is cheap here a nd we figured that it would be a 20+ year payout for us. Not worth it. That being said, our vet has solar panels. The vet's location is different and far enough inland that they don't get quite as much rain as we do in the winter. However, the reason why they do it is because they are more environmentally concerned and not quite as concerned about saving $$ and have flat out said that they're not really saving money. They also drive a Leaf. It's only a few months of the year for the high electric bill. Sure it's scary in July and August (August was the one month we couldn't open up the windows at night) but through strategic window shade and drape closings, ceiling fans and opening the windows to create cross breezes our bills weren't too bad. Being at 2500' vs Phoenix's 700' and the heat island affect at night all make a difference.
Oh and we're cheap and would keep the thermostat at 80-82 during the summer/fall.
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Chocolate Lover
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Post by Chocolate Lover on Aug 19, 2015 15:07:52 GMT -5
Heat does burst pipes, true, but will open windows be adequate cooling for the dog? I can't fathom anyone not using the AC in summer, especially when I hear the complaints from all over about the heat/humidity. not really, because she's too dumb to not chew her way through the screens. we can't open the largest windows or put a screen on the front door because she would go straight through them. if it were just me, I'd have all the doors and windows open. I love fresh air. Between the 2 allergy seasons and the extra hot or extra cold times, I have a two week window in the spring and in the fall to get fresh air in the house. <<sigh>> When you CAN do it, it's glorious. And you would quote me before I noticed my typo and fixed it
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 15:08:16 GMT -5
How about a well-placed shade tree? (Obviously, a longer-term solution.) I wonder how much a bigger one would cost to buy/plant? My house doesn't have any insulation in the walls, yet it feels sort of like a cave in the summer due to a big ass oak on the southern corner (plus several other big-ass oaks nearby). I actually have one really big tree on either end of the house, shading the upstairs windows. that helps a little, but it's a sauna up there now anyway b/c the AC doesn't really reach. my roommate has a small window AC so he can sleep up there.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Aug 19, 2015 15:14:23 GMT -5
What Bonny said.
In AZ we see all of the marketing schemes, we must be a "target-rich environment". You can but them for cash, on credit, lease them, or lease your roof-space to a solar company. For 2015 the action in AZ has been halted as the Power Companies are back-charging the solar user for the network costs.
But no matter how you pay, there is one big cost that the sales-folks ignore, the time-value of money. Eg, the bill for our total-electric AZ 2000 foot house is about $2000/yr. After all of the govt subsidies, etc, it would cost about $20,000 for solar. The big cost would be the loss the use of $20,000. I keep it in the SP500 where it doubles about every 7 years. So it will be about $160,000 in 20 years. I could pay my $2000/yr for the next 80 years with that $160k. There is no "cross-over", no "payback" in 15 years yada. It just keeps costing money. Worse yet, you only get electricity in the day time, at night you still buy from the Power Company.
Indirectly we are using a small fraction of solar, the power companies in AZ own solar fields, 100+ acre fields of panels that are set to track the sun. They feed the network by day, allowing us to avoid pulling from the Hydro Dams and turbines, thus saving them for night-time use. If solar is to have any future, I see then fields as more practical. But if you REALLY want to get no-carbon, 24 hour a day, reliable power, add more nuclear plants - in AZ we have been getting over 20% of our power from nuclear plants for 40 years.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 19, 2015 15:20:59 GMT -5
on the old message board there was poster that had a lot of experience in this.
If I remember right, he said the panels deteriorate up to 5% a year, the hotter the climate the faster the rate.
I know everyone who contacted me in an effort to sell me a system pointed to the lifetime warranty, I remember the late 80"s the solar hot water systems lifetime warranties.
How many of those are still around for the warranty??
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 15:25:59 GMT -5
I'm considering all options to save $ in my poorly-insulated house, including having Mass Save come out and do an energy assessment on the place as well. I'm hearing that they will blow insulation into crawl spaces if what's there is insufficient (it was an observation during my home inspection that there wasn't an optimal amount of insulation, but it wasn't a critical item). one of my projects for next summer is to replace all the windows. I'll be looking at Power products then. so I'm looking at solar for reducing electric costs in the summer. with the dog, I've been running the AC pretty much all the time - not at a freezer temp, either - and my bill's been over $200 each of the past 2 months. in the winter, it was under $30/month. the gas bill, though.....right now, that's $20/month. it was close to $200/month the first few months I was there. I put my contact information into a form that gave it to a few different solar companies, and now I'm just trying to compare apples to apples among the lot of them. whether it's the right move for me at all is a different discussion entirely. We did the MassSave program and there is definitely some difference in the upstairs where the heat leaks like a sieve. Downstairs, eh. We got new windows when we moved in but the walls are uninsulated so not that much of a help. DH just saw on the news yesterday(?) about people getting solar panels but the people who put them on didn't do appropriate work, or think about, reinforcing and adjusting the weight distribution so more roofs are caving in because of the extra weight on the roofs. Just a thought when you are looking into it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 15:34:25 GMT -5
I'm considering all options to save $ in my poorly-insulated house, including having Mass Save come out and do an energy assessment on the place as well. I'm hearing that they will blow insulation into crawl spaces if what's there is insufficient (it was an observation during my home inspection that there wasn't an optimal amount of insulation, but it wasn't a critical item). one of my projects for next summer is to replace all the windows. I'll be looking at Power products then. so I'm looking at solar for reducing electric costs in the summer. with the dog, I've been running the AC pretty much all the time - not at a freezer temp, either - and my bill's been over $200 each of the past 2 months. in the winter, it was under $30/month. the gas bill, though.....right now, that's $20/month. it was close to $200/month the first few months I was there.
I put my contact information into a form that gave it to a few different solar companies, and now I'm just trying to compare apples to apples among the lot of them. whether it's the right move for me at all is a different discussion entirely. Holy mother! Who do you have for these? I have Reading Municipal for my electric and I was bitching that the bill was $85 for the last billing period!!! We have to have to have the A/C running continuously for DH because of the MS. He can't tolerate heat. The gas is balanced billing and that's $66 a month, for now. I know the Cape is more expensive but WOW!! Call MassSave. The insulation they blew in really did make a difference in the heat loss for my upstairs. The A/C is like yours where it doesn't seem to do shit in summer but the heating, there is definitely a difference in the winter. I don't need a jacket and 5 blankets when sitting at my desk. Make sure that you have National Grid for your electric or gas though. They did the heating evaluation part but couldn't do the electric part because it's a municipal provider.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Aug 19, 2015 15:50:35 GMT -5
thanks, @empressspunkles. the roof is brand new, and the structure was reinforced as part of the renovations with the flip. you can see the new beams in the crawl space, we went poking around during home inspection. I can easily see people not considering the additional weight on the roof though... hopefully people learn from that story! umm....I have Eversource, aka NSTAR. the Cape is ridiculously more expensive for utilities than Metrowest was....which is complete BS b/c there's a power plant right here at the other end of the Canal. but no, that power has to be sent up to wherever it goes, and we pay thru the nose for what we use. I have National Grid for gas, so it's been running $20.xx/month since we turned the heat off. whatever minimal gas for cooking and hot water use, it seems quite steady. I started filling out the Mass Save form online, but it was asking for way more detail than I can remember offhand. I'll finish filling it out probably Friday when I'm at home during the day.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Aug 19, 2015 16:26:49 GMT -5
We are on an equalizer plan $220.00. here in Phoenix, Since my wife is home all the time now, I can tell that every light in the house is on, except in my office where I now using a 10 watt bulb in the lamp over the keyboard. I can say this without even going to look.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2015 16:45:45 GMT -5
thanks, @empressspunkles. the roof is brand new, and the structure was reinforced as part of the renovations with the flip. you can see the new beams in the crawl space, we went poking around during home inspection. I can easily see people not considering the additional weight on the roof though... hopefully people learn from that story! umm....I have Eversource, aka NSTAR. the Cape is ridiculously more expensive for utilities than Metrowest was....which is complete BS b/c there's a power plant right here at the other end of the Canal. but no, that power has to be sent up to wherever it goes, and we pay thru the nose for what we use. I have National Grid for gas, so it's been running $20.xx/month since we turned the heat off. whatever minimal gas for cooking and hot water use, it seems quite steady. I started filling out the Mass Save form online, but it was asking for way more detail than I can remember offhand. I'll finish filling it out probably Friday when I'm at home during the day. Good. Part of our roof is brand new after a pine tree fell on it before we bought it, hence why we have no trees, they cut them all down after that. NSTAR, I believe, is part of the utilities that cover the program so you can get the free home assessment for heating AND electric. Eh, they gave us lightbulbs anyway, he didn't feel like taking them back. We also got a low-flow showerhead and sink thingies. Water bill is nice and cheap!
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