joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jun 26, 2015 15:37:58 GMT -5
Rockit, I am talking about my wife's civilian 401K.....sorry, I just trust Vanguard and our personal judgment more than anyone that might employ my wife and their limited fund choices
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 26, 2015 15:59:23 GMT -5
401k plans have limited funds to chose from and HR is coerced by the mutual fund companies to offer high fee funds. Leaving a job gives you the option to roll it over to a self directed IRA where you can pick from many funds. I disagree with this statement. I am on my company 401k plan committee and we spent a lot of time going through each investment option we offered. We included risk, performance, turnover, fees and fund manager risk in our analysis. I too disagree with this. I am in Finance and handle our 401k plans (HR does report to me as well). I do all of the analysis with our third party financial advisor. I just shopped out our plan to 7 companies and am now able to have better investment options as well as lower fees.
To OP, I left 3 401ks with previous employers, one for over 14 years until late last year when I rolled them all into an IRA. The previous plans were invested in Fidelity, Merrill Lynch and BMO Harris. I monitored them as well as compared them to my Vanguard accounts and was comfortable with all, so I left them. The only reason I moved them was that I hired a Personal Financial advisor. He stated that they were all good plans and the fees were within what he would suggest, but we reviewed everything in depth and decided it was a good time to make the move.
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The Captain
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Post by The Captain on Jun 26, 2015 16:08:27 GMT -5
jelloshots4all and Miss Tequila - I believe what you say 100%. However, I used to be a plan administrator in a prior life and have worked for very large corporations my whole career. From what I've observed your experiences are not always the case. That's why you need to look at the investment options. For example - the options my husbands' employer offers just blow. Nothing at all good to say about them. Almost all target date funds based on your age. Higher than normal fees for that sort of fund as well. The employer gives a decent match though, and since my employer is top heavy I can't contribute much on a pre-tax basis (thank GAWD we have a ROTH component). So we use DH's plan to shield some income and get the match. Hell I wish DH have Vanguard or Fidelity funds available.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 26, 2015 16:14:39 GMT -5
There are some plans that do blow, undoubtedly. This is why it is important for Chiver to find out what her options are first before making any decisions.
For me, I've got some pretty good options in my 403bs and with these new changes some even better investments than I had before (and those weren't shabby). At this point, I'm not seeing a good reason to roll them over to IRAs right now.
If the 401k is in a decent plan and the company's negotiated better than normal rates, then even if she needs to cover the administrative fees herself, it might make sense to just let them stay there for awhile. If not, then rolling them over to an IRA or the new company's 401k might make sense. But these are so individualized, that no one can really say for certain what the right move might be for her.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jun 26, 2015 17:15:46 GMT -5
I disagree with this statement. I am on my company 401k plan committee and we spent a lot of time going through each investment option we offered. We included risk, performance, turnover, fees and fund manager risk in our analysis. I too disagree with this. I am in Finance and handle our 401k plans (HR does report to me as well). I do all of the analysis with our third party financial advisor. I just shopped out our plan to 7 companies and am now able to have better investment options as well as lower fees.
To OP, I left 3 401ks with previous employers, one for over 14 years until late last year when I rolled them all into an IRA. The previous plans were invested in Fidelity, Merrill Lynch and BMO Harris. I monitored them as well as compared them to my Vanguard accounts and was comfortable with all, so I left them. The only reason I moved them was that I hired a Personal Financial advisor. He stated that they were all good plans and the fees were within what he would suggest, but we reviewed everything in depth and decided it was a good time to make the move.
Jello when you say " I just shopped out our plan to 7 companies and am now able to have better investment options as well as lower fees."
better investment options compared to what? what a brokerage firm can offer?
Lower fees as compared to what? What a brokerage firm like Vanguard can offer?
Also maybe I am just a simple guy, but rather than have retirement funds at place X, Y, and Z and Vanguard to track....I would rather consolidate them to one or 2 places for ease
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vonna
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Post by vonna on Jun 26, 2015 17:22:17 GMT -5
, however if chiver wants to do back door Roth's, having a rollover IRA bugs that up. Maybe not an issue in a year or two as I understand they are working to close this loop-hole; but she may not want to eliminate this option just yet. She's building herself a more sustainable financial position & should get back to saving by end of year so might want to start a Roth. This is a pretty important caveat -- if Roth IRA's are part of your plan, be careful about rolling your old 401k into a traditional IRA. It may be better to leave the 401k where it is, or roll it into your current 401k.
Unfortunately, one size does not fit all! It really depends on your whole financial picture/plan.
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Post by The Walk of the Penguin Mich on Jun 26, 2015 18:36:02 GMT -5
, however if chiver wants to do back door Roth's, having a rollover IRA bugs that up. Maybe not an issue in a year or two as I understand they are working to close this loop-hole; but she may not want to eliminate this option just yet. She's building herself a more sustainable financial position & should get back to saving by end of year so might want to start a Roth. This is a pretty important caveat -- if Roth IRA's are part of your plan, be careful about rolling your old 401k into a traditional IRA. It may be better to leave the 401k where it is, or roll it into your current 401k.
Unfortunately, one size does not fit all! It really depends on your whole financial picture/plan.
Rolling a 401k does not count against your IRA contribution, if this is what you are implying. Chiver can roll her entire 401k into an IRA in 2015, and still make a contribution to an IRA up to her limit for 2015.
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teen persuasion
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Post by teen persuasion on Jun 26, 2015 18:51:38 GMT -5
This is a pretty important caveat -- if Roth IRA's are part of your plan, be careful about rolling your old 401k into a traditional IRA. It may be better to leave the 401k where it is, or roll it into your current 401k.
Unfortunately, one size does not fit all! It really depends on your whole financial picture/plan.
Rolling a 401k does not count against your IRA contribution, if this is what you are implying. Chiver can roll her entire 401k into an IRA in 2015, and still make a contribution to an IRA up to her limit for 2015. Vonna and Rockit are talking about the Backdoor Roth IRA. If you are above the income limit to contribute to a Roth IRA, you can make a nondeductible contribution to a traditional IRA, and convert it to a Roth. If you have no other traditional IRA monies, it isn't taxable, since you didn't deduct it. If you do have other tIRA monies, it is treated on a prorata basis as part of the total, and it would be partially taxed. So this is done much more cleanly with no other tIRA funds.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 26, 2015 20:00:48 GMT -5
I am a "Rollover IRA" believer. Call T Rowe price and tell them what is happening, and they will help you set up an IRA, and give you all the logistics for getting the money moved. It is even easier when you use the same brokerage house - that is why I suggest T Rowe. You can keep all the same funds and everything.
I don't like leaving money attached to my old employer. I know it isn't in their hands, but it is still connected to their account - if they change options in the plan, you are stuck with their decision, and all. I like a clean break. Same reason I never stayed friends with an ex - might be fine, might be annoying - safe route, shut it down.
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 26, 2015 20:59:20 GMT -5
It was in one of the earlier links, but just to emphasize:
If you are between 55 and 59.5 and think you may need access to any of the money, don't roll it to an IRA. By doing so, you lock yourself into the IRA rules which contain a penalty for withdrawals prior to age 59.5. Leaving an employer after age 55 allows penalty-free access to 401k money. Take a partial withdrawal if you need to first, then later roll over the remainder to give yourself better investment choices if you wish.
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jelloshots4all
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Post by jelloshots4all on Jun 27, 2015 7:18:46 GMT -5
I too disagree with this. I am in Finance and handle our 401k plans (HR does report to me as well). I do all of the analysis with our third party financial advisor. I just shopped out our plan to 7 companies and am now able to have better investment options as well as lower fees.
To OP, I left 3 401ks with previous employers, one for over 14 years until late last year when I rolled them all into an IRA. The previous plans were invested in Fidelity, Merrill Lynch and BMO Harris. I monitored them as well as compared them to my Vanguard accounts and was comfortable with all, so I left them. The only reason I moved them was that I hired a Personal Financial advisor. He stated that they were all good plans and the fees were within what he would suggest, but we reviewed everything in depth and decided it was a good time to make the move.
Jello when you say " I just shopped out our plan to 7 companies and am now able to have better investment options as well as lower fees."
better investment options compared to what? what a brokerage firm can offer?
Lower fees as compared to what? What a brokerage firm like Vanguard can offer?
Also maybe I am just a simple guy, but rather than have retirement funds at place X, Y, and Z and Vanguard to track....I would rather consolidate them to one or 2 places for ease
Joe- compared to the John Hancock plan we previously had. I agree that company 401k plans don't have the options that an individual IRA have. But if your company provides a match, invest in your company 401k
I have never rolled a previous 401k into a new company. As I stated I left them with previous employers until this past year, then I consolidated 3 old plans. I also have a Vanguard account that I contribute to individually, so I agree with you
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 8:33:27 GMT -5
I once rolled over a 401(k) into a new company. Never again. It was a crappy plan and I couldn't get it out till I quit 3 years later (for other reasons). It was before a lot of info was available on the Internet.
Big companies and crappy 401(k)s- GE was the worst in 2002 when I joined a sub. Some options were proprietary funds not traded publicly. No performance information- just current values on the day you looked them up. The company had previously had a 401(k) that let them buy any Fidelity fund. GE acquired them and all new money had to go to the GE plan. I was SO happy when GE sold us to a company with a decent plan. I was able to roll over the money from the old plan (permitted because of the sale) and did, immediately.
Bottom line: take your time. My advice would be not to put it in a new employer's plan.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Jun 27, 2015 10:42:29 GMT -5
I once rolled over a 401(k) into a new company. Never again. It was a crappy plan and I couldn't get it out till I quit 3 years later (for other reasons). It was before a lot of info was available on the Internet.
Big companies and crappy 401(k)s- GE was the worst in 2002 when I joined a sub. Some options were proprietary funds not traded publicly. No performance information- just current values on the day you looked them up. The company had previously had a 401(k) that let them buy any Fidelity fund. GE acquired them and all new money had to go to the GE plan. I was SO happy when GE sold us to a company with a decent plan. I was able to roll over the money from the old plan (permitted because of the sale) and did, immediately.
Bottom line: take your time. My advice would be not to put it in a new employer's plan. I am having the same problem with the choices on my husband's government plan. I can't really get any decent information. My husband has been there 10 years and is hoping to make it to 25 years so he also gets a small pension.
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stillmovingforward
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Post by stillmovingforward on Jun 27, 2015 11:03:12 GMT -5
My advice would be to let the dust settle from your new job but get that money into an IRA at fidelity or Vanguard within 6 months. For a lot of the reasons stated above but also because. ......... my SDH left his 401k at an old employer and now, several years later, we are fighting to get his money back, the 401k money has disappeared, and the federal government has an investigator in the mix. It's really interesting to be part of but we'd sooner just have the money! We for about $20,000 back but the is another $20,000 still unaccounted. Thankfully, the fed guy is on it.
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GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl
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Post by GRG a/k/a goldenrulegirl on Jun 27, 2015 11:04:43 GMT -5
It was in one of the earlier links, but just to emphasize:
If you are between 55 and 59.5 and think you may need access to any of the money, don't roll it to an IRA. By doing so, you lock yourself into the IRA rules which contain a penalty for withdrawals prior to age 59.5. Leaving an employer after age 55 allows penalty-free access to 401k money. Take a partial withdrawal if you need to first, then later roll over the remainder to give yourself better investment choices if you wish. Chiver is just a young'un -- early 30s. "Living, young, and wild, and free..."
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jun 27, 2015 11:13:13 GMT -5
Yeah, but not everyone is. A lot of people get information from lurking on others' threads. What is appropriate for one person may be wholly inappropriate for someone else.
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 1, 2015 14:06:35 GMT -5
okay, so I now have a package of information regarding benefits at termination. here's what it says about 401k: that all sounds pretty generic, so I'm going to plan to read through whatever gets sent to me and call T Rowe Price to ask the direct questions y'all have given me here. first and foremost being - what would it ultimately cost ME to leave it all where it is until I can figure out what the best option is. thanks for the advice
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jul 1, 2015 14:13:13 GMT -5
You bought another house, Chiver? Is there a particular thread where you talk about it?
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chiver78
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Post by chiver78 on Jul 1, 2015 14:37:55 GMT -5
I did, back in January. it's buried quite a ways back in the "updates on houses that are for sale" thread that Blonde Granny started in Smart Spending. I love it, I finally feel like I'm home.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 15:04:01 GMT -5
okay, so I now have a package of information regarding benefits at termination. here's what it says about 401k: that all sounds pretty generic, so I'm going to plan to read through whatever gets sent to me and call T Rowe Price to ask the direct questions y'all have given me here. first and foremost being - what would it ultimately cost ME to leave it all where it is until I can figure out what the best option is. thanks for the advice FYI - TRowePrice was a pain in the butt to get my money back from. They took the longest on the phone because they kept trying to have me keep the money with them. I repeated several times "It does not matter what you offer me, I already told you I am consolidating all my accounts to XYZ provider & you are not XYZ." Finally I got them off of it when I said "Are you refusing to distribute my account to XYZ provider?" I was surprised that they were difficult about it. Only had issues like that with ML before; the big providers never gave me grief for rolling the accounts out to another IRA.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 15:08:54 GMT -5
It was in one of the earlier links, but just to emphasize:
If you are between 55 and 59.5 and think you may need access to any of the money, don't roll it to an IRA. By doing so, you lock yourself into the IRA rules which contain a penalty for withdrawals prior to age 59.5. Leaving an employer after age 55 allows penalty-free access to 401k money. Take a partial withdrawal if you need to first, then later roll over the remainder to give yourself better investment choices if you wish. Hey tallguy, Is that information in an IRS publication somewhere? I'd like to get the details on it. For estate planning reasons, I'd really rather erode my 401K than my cash accounts. I'm not 55 yet, but it might be worth me going back to work for a couple of years to take advantage of this provision. I still have one employer 401K that I have not rolled since it have much lower fees negotiated than my general account rates. Might be worth rolling that into a new employer plan. Thanks for the info & any additional insight you can add!!
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justme
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Post by justme on Jul 1, 2015 16:09:38 GMT -5
okay, so I now have a package of information regarding benefits at termination. here's what it says about 401k: that all sounds pretty generic, so I'm going to plan to read through whatever gets sent to me and call T Rowe Price to ask the direct questions y'all have given me here. first and foremost being - what would it ultimately cost ME to leave it all where it is until I can figure out what the best option is. thanks for the advice I left my job at the end of Nov. I'd say probably a week or so later I started getting mail from the 401k company explaining my options. I left it there because I was looking to buy a place and it is basically all my net worth and I figured it'd be easier than dealing with explaining the rollover. With my luck it'd be right when I found a place. There was contract numbers to call and chat with someone about my options. I still randomly get mail about by options from them. Once I close I'm switching it to vanguard. My plan has good funds and since it's a financial analysis firm I don't see them going bad. But I honestly have no clue if there's admin fees I'm now paying that I can't see.
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Plain Old Petunia
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Post by Plain Old Petunia on Jul 1, 2015 17:01:19 GMT -5
I did, back in January. it's buried quite a ways back in the "updates on houses that are for sale" thread that Blonde Granny started in Smart Spending. I love it, I finally feel like I'm home. Thanks, I will find it. And congrats.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jul 1, 2015 19:16:50 GMT -5
It was in one of the earlier links, but just to emphasize:
If you are between 55 and 59.5 and think you may need access to any of the money, don't roll it to an IRA. By doing so, you lock yourself into the IRA rules which contain a penalty for withdrawals prior to age 59.5. Leaving an employer after age 55 allows penalty-free access to 401k money. Take a partial withdrawal if you need to first, then later roll over the remainder to give yourself better investment choices if you wish.
Another less well-known option: You can avoid the withdrawal penalty at any age, and for any reason, by beginning “substantially equal periodic payments” from an IRA. The catch here is you must continue taking these payments for five years or until you are 59 1/2 (the age you can normally start taking from an IRA penalty free), whichever comes later–even if you no longer need the cash. Incredibly, there are three possible ways to calculate the periodic payout. In the simplest, which produces the smallest annual payout, you divide the IRA’s total value by your remaining life expectancy
www.forbes.com/sites/janetnovack/2013/01/15/11-ways-to-tap-retirement-cash-early-without-a-10-penalty/
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2015 19:41:06 GMT -5
It was in one of the earlier links, but just to emphasize:
If you are between 55 and 59.5 and think you may need access to any of the money, don't roll it to an IRA. By doing so, you lock yourself into the IRA rules which contain a penalty for withdrawals prior to age 59.5. Leaving an employer after age 55 allows penalty-free access to 401k money. Take a partial withdrawal if you need to first, then later roll over the remainder to give yourself better investment choices if you wish. Hey tallguy, Is that information in an IRS publication somewhere? I'd like to get the details on it. For estate planning reasons, I'd really rather erode my 401K than my cash accounts. I'm not 55 yet, but it might be worth me going back to work for a couple of years to take advantage of this provision. I still have one employer 401K that I have not rolled since it have much lower fees negotiated than my general account rates. Might be worth rolling that into a new employer plan. Thanks for the info & any additional insight you can add!! Here's one citation. I haven't looked on the IRS site yet. link
And yes, you absolutely want to spend down your retirement accounts rather than taxable accounts for estate planning. Several reasons why, which I'm guessing you are aware of.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 20:04:21 GMT -5
Thanks tallguy and joemilitary I will look into that more. Will be interesting if I can just start one of them at 55. I would be really happy to burn that money down a little!!
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jul 1, 2015 20:12:37 GMT -5
Hey tallguy, Is that information in an IRS publication somewhere? I'd like to get the details on it. For estate planning reasons, I'd really rather erode my 401K than my cash accounts. I'm not 55 yet, but it might be worth me going back to work for a couple of years to take advantage of this provision. I still have one employer 401K that I have not rolled since it have much lower fees negotiated than my general account rates. Might be worth rolling that into a new employer plan. Thanks for the info & any additional insight you can add!! Here's one citation. I haven't looked on the IRS site yet. link
And yes, you absolutely want to spend down your retirement accounts rather than taxable accounts for estate planning. Several reasons why, which I'm guessing you are aware of.
Why would you want to spend down retirement accounts first? Do you mean "traditional" retirement accounts and not "Roth" type.....or both? I'm confused
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Jul 1, 2015 20:24:49 GMT -5
First, you want the maximum flexibility you can get. Taxable accounts do not have RMD requirements so you are not forced to take money you may not want to take. Second, if there are taxable accounts left for heirs, they get a stepped-up basis. Taxes are avoided. The rules for inherited IRA's or 401k's are a major pain in the butt as I recall, plus there is no stepped-up basis available. A Roth is different from a traditional IRA in those respects. The Roth is tax-free anyway, so is also better to leave to heirs, and also has no RMD's. Those are my main reasons.
My plan is to take most of my withdrawals (when the time comes) from my T-IRA and 401k. If I need extra and don't want to bump up a tax bracket, I may take from the Roth or taxable, but those are likely going to be my last resort.
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joemilitary
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Post by joemilitary on Jul 1, 2015 20:35:10 GMT -5
OK thanks, that makes sense....I have mostly Roths and not worried about anyone inheriting anything
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2015 21:02:46 GMT -5
First, you want the maximum flexibility you can get. Taxable accounts do not have RMD requirements so you are not forced to take money you may not want to take. Second, if there are taxable accounts left for heirs, they get a stepped-up basis. Taxes are avoided. The rules for inherited IRA's or 401k's are a major pain in the butt as I recall, plus there is no stepped-up basis available. A Roth is different from a traditional IRA in those respects. The Roth is tax-free anyway, so is also better to leave to heirs, and also has no RMD's. Those are my main reasons.
My plan is to take most of my withdrawals (when the time comes) from my T-IRA and 401k. If I need extra and don't want to bump up a tax bracket, I may take from the Roth or taxable, but those are likely going to be my last resort. I recently learned about how leaving the deferred tax 401Ks can be to my heirs detriment due to taxation & limitations on how they draw it (that don't account for life changes). I early retired sooner than planned due to being sick of excessive hours, so I was not finalized on all my planning. I can still work if I want or need to, but need to get the accounts re-organized since early retirement would draw down the already taxed money more than I wanted. I wasn't aware of the potential for early withdraw from 401Ks, so I will for sure look into that employer's plan and see if it is allowed; or I could do the substantially equal payments. I will meet with the life/estate planner in September after grandchild fun & duties are done I do care what I leave to my kids and that I do it in a way that isn't confusing or excessively taxed for them. If I am lucky enough to get through old age without medical issues that will suck my estate to zero, I want to maximize the residual that they get. I feel lucky to live in a state where death with dignity is an option, but that only applies with a terminal diagnosis and a few hoops to jump through on time left etc. I am just hoping like hell that I don't end up with Alzheimer or something that makes you non-functional but isn't terminal that puts you into long term care. My grandmother had a terminal illness, had 6 months to live, and lived for 6 years. That took about a million dollars in nursing care (europe) and was much lower cost than what our rates are here for full care living. I did select a private pay facility for her to better meet her needs, but also knowing she had the money to fund it. Never imagined it would be 6 years of care though!!
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