Iceland's President Says His Country is Better Off

[Virgil Showlion]

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VirgilBot TP v0.02 Started Thread Port on 12/27/2010

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[Virgil Showlion]

midwesterner123
Message #1 - 11/29/10 10:05 PM



[www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-26/iceland-faring-much-better-after-permitting-banks-to-fail-grimsson-says.html] Iceland Better off letting banks fail

Iceland·s President [search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Olafur%20R.%20Grimsson&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1&partialfields=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&lr=-lang_ja] Olafur R. Grimsson said his country is better off than Ireland thanks to the government·s decision to allow the banks to fail two years ago and because the krona could be devalued.

·The difference is that in Iceland we allowed the banks to fail,· Grimsson said in an interview with Bloomberg Television·s [search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Mark%20Barton&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1&partialfields=-wnnis:NOAVSYND&lr=-lang_ja] Mark Barton today. ·These were private banks and we didn·t pump money into them in order to keep them going; the state did not shoulder the responsibility of the failed private banks.·

·Iceland is faring much better than anybody expected,· Grimsson said.

How far can we ask ordinary people -- farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses -- to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks,· said Grimsson. ·That question, which has been at the core of the Icesave issue, will now be the burning issue in many European countries.·

Looks like Ireland may be following Iceland's lead on this one. Remember some years ago Ireland's people didn't even want into the EU or Euro, and politicians where the ones that made that happen. If I were a gambling man, I'd bet the whole EU and Euro experiment is falling apart before our very eyes.

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Veteran_Lender
Message #2 - 11/29/10 10:19 PM

AWESOME!!! Who's next? Tell the Central Banks where they can go and what to do when they get there!

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traelin0
Message #3 - 11/29/10 10:37 PM

AWESOME!!! Who's next? Tell the Central Banks where they can go and what to do when they get there!

Ireland is a safe bet, but with a more bottom-up approach.

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midwesterner123
Message #4 - 11/29/10 11:54 PM



[] Icelanders don't need EU Iceland has faired better since not joining the EU with the finanical collapse.

European Parliament, Strasbourg - 7 July 2010

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Tommy La
Message #5 - 11/30/10 01:05 AM



"How far can we ask ordinary people -- farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses -- to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks" U.S. should have done what Iceland did but we are too ripe with corruption. The people of the U.S. said NO to the bailouts and the politicians took bribes and did it anyway. In the U.S., seats in congress and the senate are sold for $100 million each so the business execs own our government and use their puppet politicians to destroy legislation and rob the treasury. Now we are bankrupt, in a depression and the economy is just getting worse. Crime waves, no credit. It doesn't get any worse than this. All the things President Bush said would happen were true. The lie was, he said it would happen if we DIDN'T bail out the banks when in fact, it would happen and worse if we DID. But, he's the one that hired Goldman Sachs to run our treasury and pressured capitol hill to write the blank checks after lying to the public that there is no money to bail out social security. Corruption and Greed are rampant in America and the poor are suffering worse than ever before. Now they are increasing the retirement age, decrease Social Security and Medicaire benefits and discussing ending food stamps, welfare and unemployment programs just so the rich people (who got rich by lying, cheating and stealing) can avoid paying taxes. The rich see the end coming so they are grabbing all they can before we implode and since they own the government, they are getting away with it clear and free.

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frank the impaler
Message #6 - 11/30/10 01:14 AM

Goldman Sachsenstein created these debt bombs and now they want to paid to dismantle them

[Virgil Showlion]

Ahamburger
Message #7 - 11/30/10 04:52 AM

I luv it. Blame, blame, blame!! It wasn't the people fault for overspending! No it's all because of the stein's. That's right they tricked us.. Here's a thought. Quit spending money you don't have. Simple. To late now though, can't fix it, might as well just give up and cry about the evil cartel's that made us spend this money and use our houses as ATM's..

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traelin0
Message #8 - 11/30/10 04:56 AM

I luv it. Blame, blame, blame!! It wasn't the people fault for overspending! No it's all because of the stein's. That's right they tricked us.. Here's a thought. Quit spending money you don't have. Simple. To late now though, can't fix it, might as well just give up and cry about the evil cartel's that made us spend this money and use our houses as ATM's..

Iceland is probably going to be the free speech capital of the world. Check the 7 page article out in Forbes. Soon, very soon if what Assange says is true, there won't be empty cries of "blame the little guy" anymore. It sounds to me that if govt. isn't going to rein in big banks, Assange will do it for them.

blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/wikileaks-julian-assange-wants-to-spill-your-corporate-secrets/

I quote Arthur Schopenhauer:

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

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traelin0
Message #9 - 11/30/10 05:00 AM

Anyone wanna place bets on which bank will go under due to its own malfeasance, and after Assange's Wikileak next year? I'm betting on Goldman Sachs. BYE!

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Ahamburger
Message #10 - 11/30/10 05:06 AM

I'm not "blaming the little guy" I'm stating a FACT. If people would have kept their spending in check, we wouldn't be in this mess. Funny thing is that my generation had little to do with this yet I'm willing to take responsibility for my peers that weren't listing to me when I was saying, quit spending your money. I hope that Assage takes it to them, I just wish that people would wake up and realize they are in control of their own life.

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traelin0
Message #11 - 11/30/10 05:16 AM

I'm not "blaming the little guy" I'm stating a FACT. If people would have kept their spending in check, we wouldn't be in this mess. Funny thing is that my generation had little to do with this yet I'm willing to take responsibility for my peers that weren't listing to me when I was saying, quit spending your money. I hope that Assage takes it to them, I just wish that people would wake up and realize they are in control of their own life.

People wouldn't have been able to overspend if the govt. didn't have the ability to print at will, or allow fractional reserve lending on demand deposits. That's why we had the definition of "money" explicitly spelled out in the Constitution. Human nature hasn't changed. The Founders knew this and it's also why Adam Smith explained that capitalism goes hand in hand with morality (Theory of Moral Sentiments). We each have individual responsibilities; but, simultaneously, the govt. is there to protect my individual liberties from harm by others. They failed because they print unconstitutional paper, a la theft by fiat.

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Ahamburger
Message #12 - 11/30/10 05:22 AM

So the government should have controlled us so that we weren't given the option to overspend? I luv it, just keep putting the responsibility on others, pass the buck please!

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #13 - 11/30/10 05:26 AM

So the government should have controlled us so that we weren't given the option to overspend? I luv it, just keep putting the responsibility on others, pass the buck please!

No. The Founders knew, simply put, that mankind must have a rule of law; a rule of law that is there to protect individual liberties. When a govt. sponsors crony capitalism, which they do by emitting worthless bonds and issuing paper by fiat in a fractional reserve lending system, it becomes a property rights, fraud, and counterfeiting issue. It exacerbates the boom/bust cycles of economies. If the system is running on all cylinders and functioning strictly within the rule of law, booms and busts are henceforth dramatically reduced and people can't overspend to the point of supersaturation of the economic system. This is classical liberalism dude, Adam Smith style.

Govt. in a free society, according to Smith, has three and only three taskers. 1) Fund public works projects that are otherwise unprofitable. 2) Protect individual liberties. 3) Common defense. Live within that ruleset and it is not possible to have dramatic booms and busts. Overissuance of currency is classic property rights infringement and it allows, say, my neighbor to buy a house he cannot afford from a bank that legally shouldn't be holding the note, because they can commit fraud by overextending their balance sheets with my demand deposit tenfold. Unfortunately, no govt. has ever really achieved this.

It is our fault, but mostly to the extent that the populace is too ignorant to elect good representatives to uphold the Constitution.

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Ahamburger
Message #14 - 11/30/10 05:36 AM



I hear you about liberalism, of course when the constitution was written there were still slaves, which my country helped free!

When a govt. sponsors crony capitalism, which they do by emitting worthless bonds and issuing paper by fiat in a fractional reserve lending system, it becomes a property rights, fraud, and counterfeiting issue.

You do realize that bonds were first issued to pay for WW1 right? There were many busts before the first bonds were ever issued. In fact if not for government bonds, things might be a whole lot different now.

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traelin0
Message #15 - 11/30/10 05:40 AM

You do realize that bonds were first issued to pay for WW1 right? There were many busts before the first bonds were ever issued. In fact if not for government bonds, things might be a whole lot different now.

You're right, but remember, economies are complex and bonds are only one cog in the gear. If fractional reserve lending on demand deposits is not abolished, and money is printed, well, you see where I'm going. All of the aforementioned issues are property rights issues, hence issues of liberty. Jefferson said that if he could have one amendment, it'd be to take away the ability of govt. to issue bonds. The effect, naturally, would be to dramatically reduce the numbers of wars and welfare programs.

I hear you about liberalism, of course when the constitution was written there were still slaves, which my country help free!

If I were still on P&M, I could elaborate on this and explain why slavery was not immediately abolished. The paradox is that America would not exist today without the 3/5 Compromise. That is all the Convention delegates could agree on.

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Ahamburger
Message #16 - 11/30/10 05:42 AM



Sorry.. I hit post instead of spell check.

allows, say, my neighbor to buy a house he cannot afford from a bank that legally shouldn't be holding the note,

No what allows your neighbor to do this is the very constitution that you are saying was set up for the rule of law. Freedom is what gives your neighbor this right, it's his will that should be strong enough to say NO i can't afford this house.

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traelin0
Message #17 - 11/30/10 05:47 AM

No what allows your neighbor to do this is the very constitution that you are saying was set up for the rule of law. Freedom is what gives your neighbor this right, it's his will that should be strong enough to say NO i can't afford this house.

If liberty and property rights are upheld, banks can't overleverage and extend a crappy buyer credit for a home without what you called a "hard loan" back then. We're talking 40% down payments. And homes were a lot more affordable because speculation is naturally decreased and the markets controlled supply and demand. See, govt. sends the wrong signals to the markets when they centrally plan our housing market via Fannie, and interest rates via the FED. What I am trying to say is that the Founders knew the only way liberties could be protected is via a free market and a govt. which (in part) existed to enforce said property rights. That includes using hard money as the medium of exchange so that it couldn't be printed willy nilly, which IMO can be evolved to a different monetary system if and only if (IFF for you math geeks) gold is traded on a physical-only market.

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Ahamburger
Message #18 - 11/30/10 05:48 AM

The effect, naturally, would be to dramatically reduce the number of wars and welfare programs.

That would also require that no one would ever want to attack and try to harm you.

I could elaborate on this and explain why slavery was not immediately abolished.

Trust me I understand why. What my point is, is that there is a starting point, and you move forward. I would be great to be able to have it perfect all the time, however, that's impossible. All you can do is try and make things better. If it doesn't work, you tweak it and try again. It's a process. Since we have been pushing through with human rights the whole time, I just don't get how our freedoms are being destroyed. It makes no sense if you look at the way things were, and are now.



I see you edited some of your posts. So I will follow suit

That includes using hard money as the medium of exchange so that it couldn't be printed willy nilly.

Umm, the US has always had paper money.. Which has always been printed when needed.

[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_currency] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_American_curre?ncy

[en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_United_States] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bank_of_the_Un?ited_States

The First Bank was a [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank] bank chartered by the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress] United States Congress on February 25, 1791. The charter was for 20 years. The Bank was created to handle the financial needs and requirements of the central government of the newly formed United States, which had previously been thirteen individual states with their own banks, currencies, financial institutions, and policies.

In the last decade of the eighteenth century the United States had just three banks but more than fifty different currencies in circulation: English, Spanish, French, Portuguese coinage, scrip issued by states, cities, backwood stores, and big city enterprises. The values of these currencies were wildly unstable, thereby making it a paradise for politically indifferent currency speculators thriving on uncertainty.

Some things to think about..

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #19 - 11/30/10 05:51 AM

That would also require that no one would ever want to attack and try to harm you.

That's why we had regulars and militia prior to the Militia Act of 1903. We became the most powerful, egalitarian republic the world has ever known, well before foreign wars. The 19th century was by far our greatest in terms of everything from real GDP to liberty.

Trust me I understand why. What my point is, is that there is a starting point, and you move forward. I would be great to be able to have it perfect all the time, however, that's impossible. All you can do is try and make things better. If it doesn't work, you tweak it and try again. It's a process. Since we have been pushing through with human rights the whole time, I just don't get how our freedoms are being destroyed. It makes no sense if you look at the way things were, and are now.

You can't have human rights if everything is centrally planned. We devolved, not evolved. Slavery was on its way out the door before the Civil War. Go look at the Census of 1860, not to mention the fact that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, it was fought over States' Rights and the Tariff Act of 1832 that became a disaster for the South's cotton exports.

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Ahamburger
Message #20 - 11/30/10 05:52 AM

See, govt. sends the wrong signals to the markets when they centrally plan our housing market via Fannie, and interest rates via the FED.

It's true, however, what do you do when people are crying out that it's their constitutional right to own a home? Again, back to the freedom thing.

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traelin0
Message #21 - 11/30/10 05:54 AM

It's true, however, what do you do when people are crying out that it's their constitutional right to own a home? Again, back to the freedom thing.

Well, if you have a spineless electorate, you produce a spineless bureaucracy. Which gets back to my point that the people are to blame, but not for the reasons most people think. America suffers from a crisis of morality and ignorance of the role of govt.

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Ahamburger
Message #22 - 11/30/10 05:54 AM

You can't have human rights if everything is centrally planned.

Everything is planned around the constitution. Are you saying that we have no human rights in NA??

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Ahamburger
Message #23 - 11/30/10 05:57 AM

Which gets back to my point that the people are to blame

So we agree, if people made better choices we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. So we need to educate people on making better choices with their freedoms. Not tell them that it's not their fault, that it's all the evil centrals bankers fault. When you take away peoples responsibility you tell them that it's okay to do it again.

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traelin0
Message #24 - 11/30/10 05:57 AM

Everything is planned around the constitution. Are you saying that we have no human rights in NA??

I am saying that in effect we have enslaved the free in order to "free" the world. Think about it for a bit.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #25 - 11/30/10 05:59 AM

So we agree, if people made better choices we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. So we need to educate people on making better choices with their freedoms. Not tell them that it's not their fault it all the evil centrals bankers fault. When you take away peoples responsibility you tell them that it's okay to do it again.

Actually at this juncture, the only way to teach them is via Mother Nature. People will not understand until they are wandering in the desert. The system is rotten to the core and it must die and people are going to have to feel the pain, which BTW has been greatly exacerbated by the FED and govt.

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Ahamburger
Message #26 - 11/30/10 06:00 AM

I am saying that in effect we have enslaved the free in order to "free" the world. Think about it for a bit.

I have thought about it. Lots. To me it just keeps coming back to the fact that people don't want to admit that we are in control and could have done lots to help our own countries but decided that someone else was to blame.

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Ahamburger
Message #27 - 11/30/10 06:04 AM

The system is rotten to the core and it must die and people are going to have to feel the pain, which BTW has been greatly exacerbated by the FED and govt.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I feel that we can still com back from this. We can use what we have to empower ourselves and truly become an enlighten society. Going back to wondering the desert?? You want to talk about govt control. Look at how we lived before we fled to this great land in the first place. That was govt control.

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traelin0
Message #28 - 11/30/10 06:04 AM

I have thought about it. Lots. To me it just keeps coming back to the fact that people don't want to admit that we are in control and could have done lots to help our own countries but decided that someone else was to blame.

We were in control, and yes I do understand what you are saying to a degree. But we have no control over our govt. anymore. Or should I say, those who understand the proper role of any govt. no longer has control of it. This is the cycle of every major nation-state in the history of the world. We are indeed living in very interesting times.

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traelin0
Message #29 - 11/30/10 06:07 AM

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I feel that we can still com back from this. We can use what we have to empower ourselves and truly become an enlighten society. Going back to wondering the desert?? You want to talk about govt control. Look at how we lived before we fled to this great land in the first place. That was govt control.

I do believe the Internet can usher in a Renaissance but it's not going to alleviate the massive pain of a crack-up boom and insolvency crisis. It really is as revolutionary as the Gutenberg and I would also say we were in the Dark Ages last century, just like prior to the Gutenberg. All mankind did was warmonger in the 20th century. But it is a very, very fine timeframe in which we have to choose here. We only have so much time in America to usher in either profound good or profound evil.

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Ahamburger
Message #30 - 11/30/10 06:09 AM

We were in control

Again, we have to agree to disagree. We still hold the power. If not, why are we able to sit here talking about this, and in China we would have most likely been in jail by now for even talking about the govt in such a manner? The very least all of these post would have been removed from here. That is if we could even afford a CPU, the internet, ect,ect.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #31 - 11/30/10 06:11 AM

Again, we have to agree to disagree. We still hold the power. If not, why are we able to sit here talking about this, and in China we would have most likely been in jail by now for even talking about the govt in such a manner? The very least all of these post would have been removed from here. That is if we could even afford a CPU, the internet, ect,ect.

There are different levels and manifestations of control. Woodrow Wilson learned really quickly that propaganda and brainwashing was far more effective than brute force for instance. Goebbels in fact took his ideas and applied them to Nazi Germany. With respect to control, the same goes with our govt. now, in terms of gradualist dependence. Look at how dumbed down people are, due to craptastic public education.

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Ahamburger
Message #32 - 11/30/10 06:12 AM

I do believe the Internet can usher in a Renaissance but it's not going to alleviate the massive pain of a crack-up boom and insolvency crisis.

I agree, what we can do is use the internet to educate people on making better choices and make them realize that we still have it the best and what we have is worth fighting for. Not revolution style, but renaissance style!

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traelin0
Message #33 - 11/30/10 06:13 AM

I have to hit the sack, I'll check in tomorrow.

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Ahamburger
Message #34 - 11/30/10 06:14 AM

The same goes with our govt. now, in terms of gradualist dependence.

Which is failing miserably, austerity?

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Ahamburger
Message #35 - 11/30/10 06:15 AM

I have to hit the sack, I'll check in tomorrow.

Great talking to ya! Have a good night brother!

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midwesterner123
Message #36 - 11/30/10 01:00 PM

I luv it. Blame, blame, blame!! It wasn't the people fault for overspending! No it's all because of the stein's. That's right they tricked us.. Here's a thought. Quit spending money you don't have. Simple. To late now though, can't fix it, might as well just give up and cry about the evil cartel's that made us spend this money and use our houses as ATM's..

You should consider getting a job at Goldman Sachs, they would love a spokesman's like yourself. You speak the party line and in lock step views of the bankers that screwed over everyone. Let I remind you Canada may at the moment be immune a little from this, but it will affect you guys just as much as it will Europe, Asia and USA. This is global financial empire, and it has no bounds. Sure individuals have some part to play in this, but what your saying is like blaming someone that got mugged it's their fault because they went for a walk in the shady area of town at night, so it's their fault they got mugged.

Ahamburger, I think you should take a step back from this all and see how the system is broken, and we the people have little say so what happens anymore. You look at polls and they are all in favor of no bailouts. You must ask how this can happen if majority is against it.

I'm not "blaming the little guy" I'm stating a FACT. If people would have kept their spending in check, we wouldn't be in this mess. Funny thing is that my generation had little to do with this yet I'm willing to take responsibility for my peers that weren't listing to me when I was saying, quit spending your money. I hope that Assage takes it to them, I just wish that people would wake up and realize they are in control of their own life.

Again, your blaming the little guy that owes some responsibility, but it's more like 90% banks, and 10% individuals. This bankers are like drug dealers of money, they hand it out to anyone. If we had honest non fiat money that was not debt based, we wouldn't be here. Loan officers make loans based on risk and ability to pay back, so why did they hand it out to everyone? Cause money is cheap, made out of thin air the moment it's created by banks or Fed. If money was backed by gold you bet your bottom dollar they wouldn't have made such bad loans. It was pushed program from the top down. Encouraged by mega banks.

One can't fully understand who's to blame unless you understand how money is created, and how pulls the purse strings. You would then realize that it's a win win for the bankers cause if it defaults it was never theirs and something they collected interest on in which they never had the possession or right to do other than legal bs laws that give them that right after the Federal Reserve was created.



Traelin0, I see you have cover much of this already.

[Virgil Showlion]

Veteran_Lender
Message #37 - 11/30/10 02:05 PM

Goldman Sachsenstein created these debt bombs and now they want to paid to dismantle them

It's-- Gol-damn salaryman-Shacho and the reference to Goldman Sachs is perfect. I absolutely want these crooks to pay ten-fold for all they've done.



Hey boys (we KNOW you GS-types read us here because you're completely paranoid)... much like Iceland, the USA can also vanquish dollar and debt and get along on a humbler self-sustenance. Want us to try? We would be HONORED to leave you holding the bag on the debt YOU created and YOU bought instruments as investment in, using OUR money so YOU could skim the profits.



Isn't it INTERESTING that the Goldman Sachs IPO in 1999 coincided with the enactment of the Gramm Leach Bliley Act, the elimination of all competition in the financial sector, a rise of Wal-Mart as an oligarchy and the "oil" crisis? Heck... you'd think it was all planned... in dark pools...

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midwesterner123
Message #38 - 11/30/10 02:47 PM

Hey boys (we KNOW you GS-types read us here because you're completely paranoid)... much like Iceland, the USA can also vanquish dollar and debt and get along on a humbler self-sustenance. Want us to try? We would be HONORED to leave you holding the bag on the debt YOU created and YOU bought instruments as investment in, using OUR money so YOU could skim the profits.

VL, their scared shirtless. They know that time is coming they will have to pay the piper, and the whole world is pointing fingers at this company. JP Morgan is next, and hopefully like Ron Paul suggested recently, if we don't get an Audit of Fed it will probably self destruct on it's own.

I can't be certain, but after being on these boards for awhile, I'm fairly certain the views that some individuals have are against everything this country USA is about. They openly support things that are disinfo, or insider globalist agenda. I think MT is more creditable as a reliable news source nowadays and we have some trolls posting stuff that would suggest they are either just still in the dark about such matter and have bought the mainstream media spin hook line and sinker, or more likely we have some that purposely try to mislead. I for one do think these big boy visit here from time to time or have some illegit posters on here pushing the propaganda.

Don't worry all you crooks out there, we the people will make sure you are exposed to all, and will not drop these issues until everyone knows why they have lost everything when this thing comes crashing down. You big boys miscalculated, and we the people have the power.

VL, I bet these big shots are really frightened that the gig is almost up, and the truth is out there more and more everyday shinning the light of liberty on them. Rats and Vipers I say, spat.

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AnotherPost
Message #39 - 11/30/10 03:35 PM

If I were a gambling man, I'd bet the whole EU and Euro experiment is falling apart before our very eyes.

Maybe, maybe not. Someone should tell Iceland however.

From the same article:

Grimsson, who said Iceland·s talks to join the European Union are ongoing, in January this year blocked a $5.2 billion deal to cover British and Dutch depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts. The move prompted Fitch Ratings to downgrade the island·s debt to ·junk· as a normalization of international relations grew more remote. Iceland·s Finance Ministry on Nov. 16 said the country may now be weeks away from a ·final resolution· to the Icesave dispute as it secures broad lawmaker backing for a new accord.

Yea, Iceland is doing just great. They borrowed $5 billion from the IMF, their governement has junk bond status, they hope to join the failing EU and when the Icesave bank issue gets resolved it wont be the Icelandic tax payer but bond holders elsewhere in the world that pay the tab.

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midwesterner123
Message #40 - 11/30/10 03:52 PM

So we agree, if people made better choices we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. So we need to educate people on making better choices with their freedoms. Not tell them that it's not their fault, that it's all the evil centrals bankers fault. When you take away peoples responsibility you tell them that it's okay to do it again.

The world is under the grips of debt slavery. It's not slavery like yesteryear, it's a slavery we embrace because of some perks and rewards we perceive. Banks and elites control the purse strings of most all nations of the world now. You must realize we have a financial empire now, not one with brute force in most cases. These bankers control the planet because they understand fiat money, debt based monetary system, and fractional reserve banking. If the people understood this, we would be outraged. You have to understand that this is a tricky system, based on us not understanding how it works. With interests accumulated over years this gives them absolute power of credit, currency, and ability to purchase any asset they choose. Media is their favorite, it gives them a platform to control the content we see and hear. Control the news in a sense, but I'd rather use the term influence the news, and bury stories that our unfavorable to power structure. This is main reason we have put up with this for so long, it's psychological and monetary in nature. I great big hoax and trick. We don't rebel because we come to realize this work to death cycle is normal, and what we all do. At the end of the day, most retire with little, and what they think they own (private property) is not really theirs, (property taxes).

I am saying that in effect we have enslaved the free in order to "free" the world. Think about it for a bit.

Actually at this juncture, the only way to teach them is via Mother Nature. People will not understand until they are wandering in the desert. The system is rotten to the core and it must die and people are going to have to feel the pain, which BTW has been greatly exacerbated by the FED and govt.

Hats off to you, you really get this stuff, and are filling in the gaps people don't understand.

I have thought about it. Lots. To me it just keeps coming back to the fact that people don't want to admit that we are in control and could have done lots to help our own countries but decided that someone else was to blame.

Yes and no. You must go back in history and see how this all started. Banking cartel in Europe has been trying to take this nation for first 100 years of history, and we fought back. Once they seized control (Federal Reserve) the media was their tool to calm us, and mold our minds to their bidding. Those of us awake to this, understand the wonderful job these goons have done to our minds, and having us except so much that is false reality. This is why not major uprising has happened, plus they have keep us fat with goodies and entertainment all the while using us to create this world wide financial empire.

See, the major difference between us awake and your ideals is that we see how we are in a debt slavery system, and are slaves. Because you can go on vacation, buy a home, and have a job you don't see it that way. You pay more to banks and taxes than you realize, and you get nothing back. This is your indentured servitude fees.

My question to you ahamburger is are you familiar and read about debt based monetary system, fractional reserve banking, and the history of the banking of the USA? If not, I don't expect you to get what traelin0 and I are trying to point out.

Again, we have to agree to disagree. We still hold the power. If not, why are we able to sit here talking about this, and in China we would have most likely been in jail by now for even talking about the govt in such a manner? The very least all of these post would have been removed from here. That is if we could even afford a CPU, the internet, ect,ect.

1st because internet is hard to control as of now, and if they did people would rebel so it must be done slowly. Second, MSN MT ha

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midwesterner123
Message #41 - 11/30/10 04:09 PM

There are different levels and manifestations of control. Woodrow Wilson learned really quickly that propaganda and brainwashing was far more effective than brute force for instance. Goebbels in fact took his ideas and applied them to Nazi Germany. With respect to control, the same goes with our govt. now, in terms of gradualist dependence. Look at how dumbed down people are, due to craptastic public education.

Absolutely. These Nazi programs have not gone away, but further explored and with mass media it's been projected on all of us. If you can brainwash Germany with out in the open propaganda, and leaflets, books, theater, banners, ect. Imagine what they can do now, and how they would be smarter to guide humanity to their agenda, rather than outright brute force. You can't take on USA externally, you must slowly destroy her from the inside, and using media to change our morals and values, and dumb us down so we except this NWO. Tell a people we are the land of the free enough times, and they will believe it even if TSA is groping their wives and children and putting them in naked body scanners. Does a free nation have government wiretapping of all phone calls run through a central database, or a patriot act in which you just couldn't be a patriot if you didn't agree with it. I'm sorry to say it, and it's sounds harsh and unreal, but we all have been subjects of the greatest mind control or social engineering experiment known to man. Many are starting to wake up, I suggest if this sounds too out there for you, you instead of tossing it aside, look into what we speak.

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traelin0
Message #42 - 11/30/10 04:38 PM

JP Morgan is next, and hopefully like Ron Paul suggested recently, if we don't get an Audit of Fed it will probably self destruct on it's own.

I don't think we're going to need an audit of the FED. Our govt. is too crooked to listen to Dr. Paul, so Assange will just have to leak it. Washington cannot be relied upon to do the least thing right. Like a mosquito, ignore the buzzing and they'll go the way of the dodo. One way or another the truth will come out. It always does, it's just a matter of time.

I'm thinking an investment in a publicly traded lamppost company may be a good portfolio addition.

[Virgil Showlion]

midwesterner123
Message #43 - 11/30/10 04:45 PM

I don't think we're going to need an audit of the FED. Our govt. is too crooked to listen to Dr. Paul, so Assange will just have to leak it. Washington cannot be relied upon to do the least thing right. Like a mosquito, ignore the buzzing and they'll go the way of the dodo. One way or another the truth will come out. It always does, it's just a matter of time.

I've read little bits and pieces of this Wiki leaks, and the financial banks being exposed next. Do you or anyone else understand exactly what this will do, or ramifications of this? Will this affect gold and silver price or confidence in the USA dollar? I know we don't know what's in them yet, but if someone could put this in English better than I and summarize what's going on that would be great. Thanks.

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AnotherPost
Message #44 - 11/30/10 05:03 PM

The total value of all the gold ever mined in the world is about $6 trillion. So to be completely fair when we abolish fiat money we should divide all that gold evenly among everyone. So lets see $6 trillion divided by the worlds population is... !!!!!///?. I think I will keep my fiat money.

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traelin0
Message #45 - 11/30/10 05:03 PM

I've read little bits and pieces of this Wiki leaks, and the financial banks being exposed next. Do you or anyone else understand exactly what this will do, or ramifications of this? Will this affect gold and silver price or confidence in the USA dollar? I know we don't know what's in them yet, but if someone could put this in English better than I and summarize what's going on that would be great. Thanks.

Noone can know for sure because Assange is very cautious about "leaking" before the leak. There are too many variables, such as what bank is it? What is the content of the leak (e.g., will it include emails linking back to Treasury?) Will the leak tie the bank to collusion with other entities? Will the leak tie the bank to international entities? And so on and so forth.

If it's, say, Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan, it could potentially destroy the dollar as we know it, and that would be a good thing, regardless what financial pundits espouse.

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traelin0
Message #46 - 11/30/10 05:04 PM

The total value of all the gold ever mined in the world is about $6 trillion. So to be completely fair when we abolish fiat money we should divide all that gold evenly among everyone. So lets see $6 trillion divided by the worlds population is... !!!!!///?. I think I will keep my fiat money.

That would be because you're not thinking in terms of sterilization; you're thinking in terms of a classical gold standard, and you're thinking we'd have to tie gold to anything other than the monetary base or MZM. See, there's going to be default in one way or another on many debt obligations. There is no free lunch. Gold needs to be the international standard whereby all currencies are measured. All currencies as mediums of exchange would float against it, and gold would be the ultimate store of value, such that one could gauge how well or how poorly a nation-state is managing its currency. The problem is not gold; the problem is the lack of distinct division between the medium of exchange from the store of value functions of Money. Think of it in terms of the meter being the standard for measurement of length. The dollar, yen, yuan, etc. would be measured in terms of goldgrams.

As Ingo Bischoff said on The Daily Bell's website, Americans will have a much harder time grasping the roles of Money and Gold than the rest of the world, because they have had the exorbitant privilege of exporting inflation since the establishment of Bretton Woods I.

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midwesterner123
Message #47 - 11/30/10 05:11 PM



Traelin0, just found this interview from Assange. Sounds like this could be big, said a big USA bank is involved, and if I was to guess it's Goldman Sach, or JP Morgan. Best stock up on some metals before this release. Any thoughts?

[blogs.forbes.com/andygreenberg/2010/11/29/an-interview-with-wikileaks-julian-assange/] An Interview With WikiLeaks’

You·ve been focused on the U.S. military mostly in the last year. Does that mean you have private sector-focused leaks in the works?

Yes. If you think about it, we have a publishing pipeline that·s increasing linearly, and an exponential number of leaks, so we·re in a position where we have to prioritize our resources so that the biggest impact stuff gets released first.

So do you have very high impact corporate stuff to release then?

Yes, but maybe not as high impact·I mean, it could take down a bank or two.

That sounds like high impact.

But not as big an impact as the history of a whole war. But it depends on how you measure these things.

Here's where what he said gets good!!!!!!!

These megaleaks, as you call them, we haven·t seen any of those from the private sector.

No, not at the same scale as for the military.

Will we?

Yes. We have one related to a bank coming up, that·s a megaleak. It·s not as big a scale as the Iraq material, but it·s either tens or hundreds of thousands of documents depending on how you define it.

Is it a U.S. bank?

Yes, it·s a U.S. bank.

One that still exists?
Yes, a big U.S. bank.

The biggest U.S. bank?

No comment.

When will it happen?

Early next year. I won·t say more.

What do you want to be the result of this release?

[Pauses] I·m not sure.

It will give a true and representative insight into how banks behave at the executive level in a way that will stimulate investigations and reforms, I presume.

Usually when you get leaks at this level, it·s about one particular case or one particular violation. For this, there·s only one similar example. It·s like the Enron emails. Why were these so valuable? When Enron collapsed, through court processes, thousands and thousands of emails came out that were internal, and it provided a window into how the whole company was managed. It was all the little decisions that supported the flagrant violations.

This will be like that. Yes, there will be some flagrant violations, unethical practices that will be revealed, but it will also be all the supporting decision-making structures and the internal executive ethos that cames out, and that·s tremendously valuable. Like the Iraq War Logs, yes there were mass casualty incidents that were very newsworthy, but the great value is seeing the full spectrum of the war.

You could call it the ecosystem of corruption. But it·s also all the regular decision making that turns a blind eye to and supports unethical practices: the oversight that·s not done, the priorities of executives, how they think they·re fulfilling their own self-interest. The way they talk about it.

How many dollars were at stake in this?

We·re still investigating. All I can say is it·s clear there were unethical practices, but it·s too early to suggest there·s criminality. We have to be careful about applying criminal labels to people until we·re very sure.

Can you tell me anything about what kind of unethical behavior we·re talking about?

No.

From this article, I'm guessing we are talking about a Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan Bank. Let's hope so, but we shall have to wait and see.

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traelin0
Message #48 - 11/30/10 05:13 PM

Traelin0, just found this interview from Assange. Sounds like this could be big, said a big USA bank is involved, and if I was to guess it's Goldman Sach, or JP Morgan. Best stock up on some metals before this release. Any thoughts?

No, other than the fact that it's a sad day in the world when America has to rely on an ex-Aussie hacker to get justice. People should be investing with total objectivity; that is, one should invest according to the way the world is, and not what they want it to be or the way it's been throughout their lives. It's an effort in futility to convince others with reason when reason no longer exists in a ubiquitous fashion. As my main man Jefferson said: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear." People let greed and fear run their lives. Profit off it.

[Virgil Showlion]

AnotherPost
Message #49 - 11/30/10 06:09 PM

The dollar, yen, yuan, etc. would be measured in terms of goldgrams.

Who/what decides the relative value of each currency- perhaps a central bank? With gold being the "ultimate store of value" what happens when one or a limited number of entities decides to corner the market? Why wouldn't a country with large gold production capacity become the new oil cartel and influence the value of everyone else's economy by controlling access to the gold? For that matter why don't we use oil as the global standard- its going to a rare as gold some day.

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traelin0
Message #50 - 11/30/10 06:17 PM

Who/what decides the relative value of each currency- perhaps a central bank?

The markets. Central banks are outdated 17th century constructs.

With gold being the "ultimate store of value" what happens when one or a limited number of entities decides to corner the market?

It can't be done in a physical only exchange (see below). We use paper exchanges with crazy low margin, such that the PM futures are levered up by some ungodly ratio. The Hunt brothers tried to corner a paper market.

Why wouldn't a country with large gold production capacity become the new oil cartel and influence the value of everyone else's economy by controlling access to the gold?

Because most of the gold in the world is in private hands and always will be. Gold is a strange creature. The higher its valuation in paper currencies, the tighter the handgrip around it. It functions in the inverse of everything else we know. It is the quintessential metric of political and monetary instability (not inflation/deflation) so it functions in a feedback loop. A floating gold market can only function with this private investiture. The Europeans and Easterners know this and are encouraging private ownership of gold because they know how broken the monetary system is. Furthermore, they know the only path to sanity is a standard whereby gold is the ultimate metric of paper. Paper will never go away, it's too useful as a medium of exchange, plus the bankers would never allow it.

For that matter why don't we use oil as the global standard- its going to a rare as gold some day.

Because gold is only good for one thing: Money. And that is because of its physical and instrinsic properties. You don't want to use an energy supply for anything other than energy. It's not easily storable, either. We can't pragmatically store vials of oil in our homes.

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cheapgenes
Message #51 - 11/30/10 06:41 PM

Ahamburger when Barney Frank took out the controls that were set in place at the end of the depression, this was the rich, who have bought politicians, setting everyone up for the big fall. The rich knowing what would happen, set themselves up to make big money off of the meltdown, which they created. The SUPER RICH have always been in control. It is still master and slave. If you are not among the SUPER RICH, you are a slave. Some slaves do make 250K per year. They aren't rich.

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traelin0
Message #52 - 11/30/10 06:49 PM

Ahamburger when Barney Frank took out the controls that were set in place at the end of the depression, this was the rich, who have bought politicians, setting everyone up for the big fall. The rich knowing what would happen, set themselves up to make big money off of the meltdown, which they created. The SUPER RICH have always been in control. It is still master and slave. If you are not among the SUPER RICH, you are a slave. Some slaves do make 250K per year. They aren't rich.

The problems are much greater than any one man or any one political faction. It is the death by 1,000 cuts. All of this was understood by the men who founded this nation. Madison once said that when the three branches of govt. fail, the fourth will be there to regain control. I didn't truly grasp the depth of his statement until I witnessed the power of the Internet.

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AnotherPost
Message #53 - 11/30/10 07:41 PM

Because most of the gold in the world is in private hands and always will be.

Maybe, but the largest gold producing country in the world today is who-- the Chinese. I doubt they have any interest in creating a level playing field for currency.

The markets.

Bring on the gold derivatives!

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traelin0
Message #54 - 11/30/10 08:23 PM

Bring on the gold derivatives!

That's paper, a la LBMA and COMEX. They're going to burn. I envision a scenario where COMEX is so insolvent that paper gold futures are worthless and the only immediate price discovery mechanism will be local and physical. Why do I suspect this? Because I'm a numismatist and it's what I've done for years. Monetary history is both fascinating and predictable, provided one knows where to look.

Maybe, but the largest gold producing country in the world today is who-- the Chinese. I doubt they have any interest in creating a level playing field for currency.

They can't create a level playing field for currency, only gold can. No matter how much they produce, gold builds a meritocracy under a free-floating scenario. That's the only way the international system could work. And if you follow Chinese news, they already know it. It wouldn't do any good for one nation to hold all the gold at the state level, because then the rest of the world would have nothing to store their value in, and the system would collapse just like the one now. It would be a rush to the exits for anything with intrinsic value that the other nation-states possess; you'd then have terribly flawed international trade policies like now. Perhaps coupled with a reinstitution of the Real Bills Doctrine would make it "flow" a little better, but I wouldn't count on going back to less control for politicians.

[Virgil Showlion]

midwesterner123
Message #55 - 11/30/10 08:33 PM

That's paper, a la LBMA and COMEX. They're going to burn. I envision a scenario where COMEX is so insolvent that paper gold futures are worthless and the only immediate price discovery mechanism will be local and physical. Why do I suspect this? Because I'm a numismatist and it's what I've done for years. Monetary history is both fascinating and predictable, provided one knows where to look.

Physical is always best bet, but what about mining companies stocks with holding of reserves unmined still? If you own that company, the land in which the gold or silver is still in the ground is an asset, and you are part owner. No matter what manipulation goes on, one would think this to be a good gamble, much better than ETF's because it has access to those reserves.

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traelin0
Message #56 - 11/30/10 08:35 PM

Physical is always best bet, but what about mining companies stocks with holding of reserves unmined still? If you own that company, the land in which the gold or silver is still in the ground is an asset, and you are part owner. No matter what manipulation goes on, one would think this to be a good gamble, much better than ETF's because it has access to those reserves.

It depends on a variety of variables. What if the nation-state decides to nationalize gold production? It happens all the time. That's why individual gold confiscation would *never* happen in America. Less than 2% of Americans own any form of gold, so the State would go after the means of production and possibly the corporations which possess a lot of physical.

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midwesterner123
Message #57 - 11/30/10 08:42 PM

It depends on a variety of variables. What if the nation-state decides to nationalize gold production? It happens all the time.

I've thought of that already. USA and Canada for me are safer. Australia, and parts of Europe and maybe Russia seeing as things are changing there would be my second choices. I'm not a fan of most third world nations, i believe they will nationalize for sure once price hits a high margin. Mexico, Bolivia, South Africa are probably the worst IMO. China could easily Nationalize metals and that wouldn't surprise me one bit. What til prices get higher, you'll see alot more of that happening.

I'll stick with my top choices as prime places to place my bets. If your invested in the nations I suggested to get out of, I'd really consider getting out before they nationalize. South Africa is always been a mess, Bolivia and Mexico are narcotic States, and China will do as China pleases.

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Duffminster
Message #58 - 11/30/10 08:53 PM

iceland did the right thing for its people and its nation by rejecting the global banking cartel's "solution." Ireland and the other EU members do not have the same lattitude because of their physical and economic proximity to the European super powers and their economic and political interdependency. Not without out right and sustained successful revolution will the right thing be done among the larger bank cartel controlled nations. One should invest based on those assumptions in my opinion. EQE, eternal quantitative easing, like Japan.

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cheapgenes
Message #59 - 11/30/10 09:01 PM

tralin0 - what do you think about the wikileaks? They're saying it's a bad thing, but I'm not sure that it's not for the best. We have been lied to and lied to for so long. Maybe it is better for all to be transparent. The truth will set you free.

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traelin0
Message #60 - 11/30/10 09:12 PM

tralin0 - what do you think about the wikileaks? They're saying it's a bad thing, but I'm not sure that it's not for the best. We have been lied to and lied to for so long. Maybe it is better for all to be transparent. The truth will set you free.

I was severely chastised on P&M for taking the position that no secrecy is good secrecy if the Constitution is being violated. Not one person defended me and I'd bet most of those lobbing the ad hominems never even served. If the Constitution is meaningless, which by the reactions of our officialdom, it is, then why even bother having soldiers swear an oath to it? Just get on with the despotism and be done with it. It's a complete moral dilemma for those folks who served.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #61 - 11/30/10 09:17 PM

I've thought of that already. USA and Canada for me are safer. Australia, and parts of Europe and maybe Russia seeing as things are changing there would be my second choices. I'm not a fan of most third world nations, i believe they will nationalize for sure once price hits a high margin. Mexico, Bolivia, South Africa are probably the worst IMO. China could easily Nationalize metals and that wouldn't surprise me one bit. What til prices get higher, you'll see alot more of that happening.

OK, well now you're asking for me to opine. Australia is already being heavy-handed with certain miners, and America is one of the worst places to invest in gold mining operations if you're worried about govt. sanity in the developed world. Yes, the gold reserves in Alaska make Dahlonega and Sutter's Mill blush by comparison (the untapped reserves are TREMENDOUS), but individuals are also panning for gold up there. Canada is a great bet IMHO. Lots of resources, non-imperial govt. THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND IS NOT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM, INVESTMENT ADVICE.

I'll stick with my top choices as prime places to place my bets. If your invested in the nations I suggested to get out of, I'd really consider getting out before they nationalize. South Africa is always been a mess, Bolivia and Mexico are narcotic States, and China will do as China pleases.

This is again not investment advice, however, Mexico has some great silver plays if one is a risky fellow.

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Ahamburger
Message #62 - 11/30/10 09:34 PM



Got off work early today.

Which I see mid, is your biggest problem, you have somehow rooted this all back into the us being debt slaves because we have to work. You will always have to work, it is up to YOU to make good decisions. There are LOTS of people on here who have made money through this mess. If people made better choices, there wouldn't be a debt problem. Since I see you are finally agreeing that it's not all the bankers fault, you see what I'm saying, your just in denial about it still. It's called 50/50.

As far as the history of the US monetary system. You must have missed the wiki link I posted to the first bank of the US. Which was a private central bank set up by congress in 1791. Why? Because there were 50 different currency floating around the new nation, and people were taking advantage of the situation. You seem to be the one that is misinformed. There has always been a central bank in the US just in different forms. The original Us currency was printed to pay for the war for independence. That's right they just printed money to pay for the debt. So if you think abolishing the FED and going back to the way it was before 1791 think of this. Your say, NY dollars could be worth 1/16 of what say a Wis. dollar would be worth. If you think there would be less manipulation this way, I find anything you say hard to believe.



cheapgenes.. You think the super rich want to stop making money?? Interesting. That's what would happen with the "big fall" as you put it.

I didn't truly grasp the depth of his statement until I witnessed the power of the Internet.

Bingo!!!

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traelin0
Message #64 - 11/30/10 10:07 PM

As far as the history of the US monetary system. You must have missed the wiki link I posted to the first bank of the US. Which was a private central bank set up by congress in 1791. Why? Because there were 50 different currency floating around the new nation, and people were taking advantage of the situation. You seem to be the one that is misinformed. There has always been a central bank in the US just in different forms. The original Us currency was printed to pay for the war for independence. That's right they just printed money to pay for the debt. So if you think abolishing the FED and going back to the way it was before 1791 think of this. Your say, NY dollars could be worth 1/16 of what say a Wis. dollar would be worth. If you think there would be less manipulation this way, I find anything you say hard to believe.

Just a couple historical corrections and by no means is it meant to be nitpicking, so please do not take it as such. We really had a central bank before the First BUS. It was a short-lived experiment known as the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_North_America] Bank of North America, borne out of the old Articles. It failed. The First BUS was primarily constructed by Alexander Hamilton (a self-avowed Monarchist), much to the disdain of Thomas Jefferson (see [www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=58942] this letter to GEN Washington), to pay back war debt of the former Colonies. It had a 20 year charter and also outlived its usefulness. The Second BUS was borne out of the end of the War of 1812, in 1816. Unfortunately Pres. Madison made a mistake here, God bless the man except this one fatal flaw, and even more unfortunately, Marshall screwed up by upholding its Constitutionality in [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCulloch_v._Maryland] McCulloch. It was finally killed by GEN Jackson and, even though we had the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Bank_Act] National Bank Act of 1863, we had no central bank until 1913.

The FED was created by JP Morgan so that he didn't have to bail the US out of bankruptcy anymore, which he had done twice, in 1893 and 1907 (see [seekingalpha.com/article/97694-j-p-morgan-bailouts-date-back-to-1893] reference). It has also outlived its usefulness. It is impossible to centrally plan an economy. The 19th century was our greatest for a reason; yet we fought 3 wars (excluding the maritime wars like the Quasi War) in the 19th century and shrugged it off like a flea (albeit after some pain, like the Long Depression of 1873, and the Panic of 1819)!

Read the letter from TJ to GW. It is absolutely humbling to read what true genius this man was and I consider myself thoroughly blessed to be, like him, a (formerly) native Virginian. He knew exactly what bankers were up to (global currency), even back then. 1791 people, 1791, and he "got it".

It may be said that a bank, whose bills would have a currency all over the states, would be more convenient than one whose currency is limited to a single state. so it would be still more convenient that there should be a bank whose bills should have a currency all over the world. but it does not follow from this superior conveniency that there exists any where a power to establish such a bank; or that the world may not go on very well without it.

Jefferson lost, but we are winning. Central banks are useless, obsolete, mercantilist constructs borne out of the 17th century Bank of England. It was, perhaps, the primary reason Jefferson wanted to secede from the worthless Crown. I wish we'd finally wash our hands of those Monarchist mercantilists today, TBH.

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Ahamburger
Message #65 - 11/30/10 10:10 PM

They have been destroyed in the past

Why are you so sure this one won't be someday? I understand the situation. I wonder if you do; 6% of your taxes. Just think about it. I have a question.. Where do you think the US would be right now if not for the ability to print money to pay off debt? Again the Fed was set up by congress to deal with banking issues.

According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is independent within government in the sense that "its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived from the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Congress] U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight. Additionally, the members of the Board of Governors, including its chairman and vice-chairman, are chosen by the [en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_the_United_States] President and confirmed by Congress

Have a good day in your debt slave fantasy. I'm going to go spend the rest of my half day off with my family!

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AnotherPost
Message #67 - 11/30/10 10:21 PM

No matter how much they produce

I don't see how this can be absolutely true. If gold was available in an unlimited supply it would be no more valuable than air and have no more relevance as a standard of value as it would free float to zero.

If you define gold as the standard of value for the world there's a good chance someone will find a way to create it or counterfeit it.

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traelin0
Message #68 - 11/30/10 10:36 PM

I don't see how this can be absolutely true. If gold was available in an unlimited supply it would be no more valuable than air and have no more relevance as a standard of value as it would free float to zero.

Gold is not so rare that there's not enough to go around; yet it is also not unlimited in supply. That's the beauty of it, and it also serves no other purpose except (for the most part) jewelry. Furthermore, 96-98% of the gold ever mined still exists, and in the aggregate the number of oz. per capita is relatively constant, due to technology and the market's will to profit. Physical gold, however, will necessarily be revalued to counterbalance the prevailing insolvency crises. This is one thing the ECB has done right; they mark their gold to the market and it fluctuates on their balance sheet in terms of % of central bank reserves. America is heaped in the past; we still fix our reserves at $42.22/oz. because we defaulted on the world.

The last thing I will say is this, and it's somewhat off topic, and I will not elaborate after I post it. When nation-states and central banks buy gold, they do so in bulk, in the multi-tonnes. They also DO NOT buy it at the paper spot price. It is the rule of quantity, and when I say "rule of quantity", think in terms of "multiplied many times over". Central banks in countries which have experienced hyperinflation are not stupid. I will also say this; Oil flows through Gold. Always has, always will, and that was revealed through Aramco.

If you define gold as the standard of value for the world there's a good chance someone will find a way to create it or counterfeit it.

There will always be those with nefarious intent. However, we have very sophisticated technology, such as ultrasonic gold bar testing, that alleviates a lot of the problems. It is by far easier to counterfeit paper and worse yet, bytes. The markets always find a way to fill the gap. It is the creative genius of Man, provided he is free, to overcome problems.

[Virgil Showlion]

Ahamburger
Message #69 - 12/01/10 03:50 AM



I don't get you traelin0, you say that a world currency is bad, yet your talking about replacing all currency with gold?

BTW thanks for this...

It's no fantasy,

The FED was created by JP Morgan so that he didn't have to bail the US out of bankruptcy anymore, which he had done twice, in 1893 and 1907

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traelin0
Message #71 - 12/01/10 04:07 AM

I don't get you traelin0, you say that a world currency is bad, yet your talking about replacing all currency with gold?

No, gold would be the standard by which all currencies would be measured. In other words, gold is 100% demonetized, only physical gold markets exist, and the USDX is replaced with, say, the AUX.

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Ahamburger
Message #72 - 12/01/10 04:49 AM

Ahh, I see traelin0, thanks for clearing that up.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #73 - 12/01/10 04:53 AM

Ahh, I see traelin0, thanks for clearing that up.

No problemo.

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rovo
Message #74 - 12/01/10 05:01 AM

Just for yuks, let's say we eliminate the Federal Reserve system. Then what?

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Ahamburger
Message #75 - 12/01/10 05:06 AM

Then what?

Great question rovo!!!!! ANYONE??

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rovo
Message #76 - 12/01/10 05:10 AM

Do we transfer the powers of the Federal Reserve to the Treasury which is a political branch? Do we just forget about the functions of the Federal Reserve?

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AnotherPost
Message #77 - 12/01/10 11:06 AM



Regardless of how we measure or regulate the overall money supply it does not change the single greatest economic problem the US and the world face. This problem is also the source of much of the frustration expressed on this board. Dramatic income and wealth inequality now exists in virtually every country. The amount of economic power (and associated political power)and wealth vested in a very few people is staggering. This will not change any time soon.

Debt is a problem for governments and individuals, but even as this gets resolved the pain involved will not be shared by the very rich- who will just get richer.

This concentration of wealth does/will control much of what happens in the world politically and economically.

The one thing you can say conclusively about gold and the Golden Rule- those who have it make the rules.

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midwesterner123
Message #78 - 12/01/10 03:18 PM

Just for yuks, let's say we eliminate the Federal Reserve system. Then what?

Great question Rovo. There is a bigger question to this also, are we a constitutional republic, and do we care anymore. If are still, then according to the constitution it states:

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, [boards.msn.com/glossary.html#IMPOST] Imposts and [boards.msn.com/glossary.html#EXCISE] Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common [boards.msn.com/constmiss.html] Defence and general [boards.msn.com/glossary.html#WELFARE] Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, [boards.msn.com/glossary.html#IMPOST] Imposts and [boards.msn.com/glossary.html#EXCISE] Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

Then we have Dr. Ron Pauls statements: [immortalityroad.wordpress.com/2008/09/19/ron-paul-says-that-federal-reserve-bank-is-unconstitutional/] Ron Paul Says Federal Reserve Is Unconstitutional

Rep. Ron Paul in an interview on Glenn Beck last night said that the Fed was never in the plan of the Founding Fathers who drafted the Constitution.

He said that in 1913 the Congress shirked their constitutional responsibilities concerning the nation·s money and handed it over to a private corporation in the form of a central banking system. The Federal Reserve System is not a part of our federal government, and there is no reserve of real money (gold and silver), and it is not constitutional.

These bankers have been given authority by the people·s representatives in Congress to print paper money, and now electronic money, out of nothing. There is nothing backing the money up. Check out Ron Paul speaking on these things here: .

They have built an economic house of cards that is not real. And the Fed now cannot let it fall. The world would be thrown into a depression so severe that the middle class would cease to exist overnight, services would grind to a halt, and an ice cold panic would ensue. The rich men don·t want that, for their greatest fear are the marauding mobs. This is the reason that the Fed will do anything to keep the house of cards standing, even though it is only an illusion.

In 1913, the American people trusted their elected representatives in Congress to truly look out for their best interests. But they were deceived by the mostly rich men who were in Congress that year. For Congress in the dark of night, during a recess, passed the Federal Reserve Act. And President Woodrow Wilson did not have the peoples· back, for he did not veto it. Wilson was in the hip pocket of the rich men, relying on the advice of Colonel House, who had the rich men·s best interests at heart.

So, the Federal Reserve system is unconstitutional, and must be undone since it's a fraud for the bankers to control our money supply. Just look at the dollar, it says federal reserve not, not USA currency. So first before answering your question about what next, we must address that this entity is illegal to the supreme rule of the land, the USA constitution, and therefore it's our duty as patriots to make sure we return to the founding principles of the republic.



To address your question as to what's next:

[Virgil Showlion]

midwesterner123
Message #79 - 12/01/10 03:19 PM



Continued: #78

Great question rovo!!!!! ANYONE??

We have functioned without a central banking cartel before, and it's worked. Sure nothing is perfect, but it did work. Taking away the power from the Fed and placing it into congress and the treasury's hands is the step we should all strive for. What's next? Hopefully a return to sound money supply. One can argue about if we want a fiat system, or not, but the main issue is no private bank should be profiting off of our labors.

What's next then, I would say going back to the way we ran things before the central banks, and kicking out the banking cartel.

Whether we like it or not, the way things seem to be going is the metals will more than likely back our currencies again. China and Russia are taking steps to accumulate gold. The fed with it's printing policies will more than likely self destruct along with many mega banks in derivatives like JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs. I'm sure smaller banks will take over at that point. It's a house of cards, and we must start thinking about solutions for our nation, and others involved in this global fiat money scam, and when it's all exposed the ramifications involved. Having an idea of what to do, and where we are going is half the battle. I think the free markets will readjust metals as a standard world currency until we can get a footing on backing our own currency with gold. However it works out, Gold is king here, and in order to create economic stablity even if temporary, I believe that a return to metals backing our money is not just a suggestion, but will probably happen on it's own.

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traelin0
Message #80 - 12/01/10 03:38 PM

Just for yuks, let's say we eliminate the Federal Reserve system. Then what?

If we were doing so in an orderly fashion, the first thing that would have to happen is sterilization of Federal Reserve Notes. There are a number of ways to do this, but eventually what it boils down to is the govt. would have to replace the FRNs with United States Notes, to be directly issued by the Treasury via the BEP. It is not a pain-free process and if I can find a very old post I made on this, I'll dig it up; I laid out a quick and dirty formula based on older statistics. Savers would get punished, but they are already being discreetly punished when they are saving with an increasingly worthless medium of exchange that also serves as the de facto store of value.

The classical gold standard enthusiasts want to go back to the time where we are using gold and/or silver as both our medium of exchange and store of value. It wouldn't work because politicians will NEVER be able to control their spending habits unless the markets discourage it, such as in a floating standard, and eventually the fixed valuation of gold would have to be inflated (again), or gold flows would be unbalanced between nation-states (again), or when all bets are off and our politicians take us to war, they'd just suspend the gold standard and reissue fiat paper (again). I just don't think it's possible to reinstitute a classical gold standard without also prohibiting Treasury from issuing bonds. Again, there are too many branches on the decision tree to discuss in one thread.

Point being is you can't just abolish the FED without having a plan of sterilization, unless of course we just want to default on our debt obligations and foment WW3. The other thing that I would personally do is reopen the Mint and establish it as a Cabinet level position, or better yet place it back under the State Dept. But that is another topic entirely.

Dr. Paul has a pretty clever way of bypassing some of the above by creating competition in currencies, that is, repealing legal tender laws so that we can use whatever the hell we want to for transacting. Great idea, I love it, but good luck convincing Congress of that.

Do we transfer the powers of the Federal Reserve to the Treasury which is a political branch? Do we just forget about the functions of the Federal Reserve?

The powers of the Federal Reserve are unconstitutional and shouldn't be transferred to anyone. It is by far and away the most powerful central bank in our nation's history, which partially explains why we've had the worst depressions and recessions on its watch. It is not possible for a handful of men to "manage" interest rates or even to guide them in an efficient manner. If the markets were dictating interest rates, we would have never had this debt burden to begin with because borrowing would have been near impossible at the rates the markets would have demanded. When you get right down to it, we don't want such an incestuous relationship between govt. and banking. It has gotten to the point where the crack dealers (banks) have gotten the addict (govt. and certain segments of the electorate) so addicted to the drug, that the crack dealer is running the show.

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traelin0
Message #81 - 12/01/10 03:57 PM

We have functioned without a central banking cartel before, and it's worked. Sure nothing is perfect, but it did work.

Yes, however, it's not that simple. We had a much more independent, informed, and moral electorate in the past. When we had economic panics, people weren't begging for unemployment bennies, welfare, etc., because for the most part you still had near-full employment. We didn't need a minimum wage because govt. wasn't destroying the money supply, so wages were more stable in relation to prices of non-discretionaries. And here's something else to consider that most people often overlook. Most of the advances we made in the second half of the 20th century were expedited by our debt-based monetary system. People/corporations would borrow and borrow to fund R&D; eventually that catches up with you.

We have become an impossibly impatient society and I really doubt people would be willing to shave off a couple years of R&D, where companies would primarily fund it through internal capital like the period from 1900-1910. That's the tradeoff with a stable monetary system. There is no free lunch and progress can take a bit longer (although not a lot, if you look at the railroad boom, Industrial Revolution, etc.). But how many Americans are willing to live off the fruits of current labor instead of pulling it forward and living for today? I just don't see this ending well for those with the entitlement mentality. Austerity shouldn't be necessary, it should have been the norm. But try telling that to people who have been sitting on unemployment for 2 years and aren't willing to do what it takes to get a job.

Whether we like it or not, the way things seem to be going is the metals will more than likely back our currencies again.

I don't see this happening in America, for the reasons I outlined above. The past shows us the path forward but that does not mean it is the exact path. You can't have a classical gold standard or a gold exchange standard without preventing the govt. from borrowing. Good luck getting that Amendment ratified. It would be great but it's a pipe dream.

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midwesterner123
Message #82 - 12/01/10 04:07 PM



Traelin0, I agree the solution is multi steps or directions. Hopefully it's done before things get really bad. I think though that unless we prove we are turning the tide back to constitutional government and prove that wholeheartedly, confidence in US Dollar will fail unless backed by metals. I agree that in time we can discuss if a fractional reserve system is something we can all agree on, and to what degree, so long as there is no profit involved by private bankers, and what checks and balances do we put on congress for spending? Many more questions to ask. Dismantle many of the burdensome agencies of the Federal Government, and state governments, and create a new institution working with treasury, or expand treasury with new checks and balances for audits, accountability, and spending caps. We need to think outside the box in this one, but #1 problem is the private banking cartel, get them out of the way, and then we can work towards solutions. I for one think Gold and Silver backed money is the way to go for now in order to create a stable environment for business again, then once established, another system could work.



Some questions to throw out there assuming the fed is dismantled or self destructs:

1. Do we back our currency with gold, silver, oil or basket of commonities?

2. Do we expand the treasury, or create a new agency to deal with spending caps can controls, accountability, internal and external independent audits, and cash flows statements breaking down where money is going and who is receiving what funding to the dollar?

3. Should there be a new budget committee in congress working with treasury to stabilize dollars, and work with trade agreements or tariffs if need be.

4. Do we drift away from keynesian economics, and centrally managed economy, to a austrian view, or a combo of both. Is laize Fare the way to go?

5. Do we need an economic bill of rights, or a new amendment to the constitution regarding finance and banking institutions considering the impact they have over the entire process and arguably more dangerous than standing armies according to Thomas Jefferson?

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs. [www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Thomas_Jefferson/] Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

7. If fiat money is used, what rate of inflation is acceptable to the public as a hidden taxation and agreed upon as in the best interest of the economy as a whole, if we even need this at all?



This system now is a house of cards, and in order to avoid a new dark ages, I think we need to address some serious questions, and how we want this new economic system to look and work for us.

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traelin0
Message #83 - 12/01/10 04:23 PM

1. Do we back our currency with gold, silver, oil or basket of commonities?

Like I said, if you want a gold-exchange standard or classical gold standard, the only way it would work is to prohibit the issuance of govt. bonds. That is highly unlikely unless state assemblies start the move toward a Constitutional Convention. So the only other sustainable way forward is with free-floating gold, and you split the medium of exchange and store of value roles of money. And at that point paper gold markets would have to be suspended. Don't think of it as a gold standard. Think of it as gold being the standard whereby all other currencies are measured. It would be to currencies as the meter is to length. This is ultimately what Europe and Asia want, which means it's likely what we will get.

Europe could destroy the dollar overnight if it really wanted to. Very easily in fact. What they could do is re-mark their gold reserves to a much higher valuation and the COMEX would be toast. The ECB surely knows this but I doubt Parliament does. In any event, gold will necessarily be revalued because it's all about the debt burdens. And I hinted at what a final revaluation will look like, when I talked about what central banks pay for it in bulk. Martin Armstrong's latest is dead-on, 100%, what I have been theorizing (www.martinarmstrong.org/files/Indirect%20v%20Direct%20Stimulus%2011-21-2010.pdf).

It sounds like you want to go back to the classical gold standard. Again, highly unlikely, but if by some miracle it were to happen, all you'd need to do is prohibit the issuance of govt. bonds and eliminate fractional reserve lending on demand deposits. You don't need any other bloated govt. programs, etc., in fact you'd dramatically shrink govt. by the very fact that gold chains a govt. to its original intent. Good luck convincing a politician of that!

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midwesterner123
Message #84 - 12/01/10 04:37 PM

It sounds like you want to go back to the classical gold standard. Again, highly unlikely, but if by some miracle it were to happen, all you'd need to do is prohibit the issuance of govt. bonds and eliminate fractional reserve lending on demand deposits. Good luck convincing a politician of that!

Agreed, wouldn't be easy, but think with education it is possible. We are entering a new era, and things are changing. Americans are rediscovering their history and their freedoms. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss this. I think even the NWO globalist are considering Gold standard, at least for now with recent comments at IMF. I think they know they are losing, and only way to get confidence back, and set up their world government would be to have a stable one world currency, and that would be gold, or gold backed paper. I see your point, but globalist are losing this game, and we are awakening to their plans. This would serve them well, because it would calm the people down, and give them more credit with their agenda. Hopefully people see through this, but I think it's a very real situation we could face. Heck China and Russia are dumping dollars and buying metals. I agree with some of your assessment, but some very real new things are changing too. Hard to say right now, but looking better for a gold backed currency.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #85 - 12/01/10 04:40 PM

I think even the NWO globalist are considering Gold standard, at least for now with recent comments at IMF.

No mid, that's what I am trying to explain. They are not talking about a gold standard the way most people think of it. They are talking exactly about what I have been recommending. My thought process is based on the notion of "Freegold". And it was the World Bank's President, Zoellick, who was talking about gold. Read what he said, he is talking about the same thing as me, but he is not describing it in detail so that the masses can digest it. He even said the 19th century gold standard is dead.

Hard to say right now, but looking better for a gold backed currency.

Not gonna happen unless our govt. collapses and politicians discover morality overnight, and prohibit US Treasuries from being emitted. The process I am outlining completely separates the paper/digital medium of exchange, call it "NewDollar", from the store of value, "Freegold". Go to FOFOA's blog, he explains it all. It is the only way forward without radically overturning society and govt. as we know it.

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Virgil Syonid
Message #86 - 12/01/10 08:37 PM

Mid, three posts deleted by me (11/30/10) per the new agreement. This isn't a joke.

- Virgil (Mod)

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midwesterner123
Message #87 - 12/01/10 08:46 PM

Mid, three posts deleted by me (11/30/10) per the new agreement. This isn't a joke.

- Virgil (Mod)

Virgil, I didn't go over the 15 yet today?? Are you sure you aren't looking at yesterdays posts and today's combined? Not trying to break rules, I pretty darn sure I didn't go over yet, and looked at posting history and didn't see that either? You can delete this post once you read it.

It's per calendar date. You had 18 messages for 11/30/10. Click on your name and your message history comes up. You're fine so far today.

- Virgil (Mod)

Ok, Sorry about that, must have miscounted.



Sorry to do this on here, but does editing ones post and adding more information consider another post, I was doing that yesterday, and think it may have shown up as more posts than I actually did.

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Virgil Syonid
Message #88 - 12/01/10 08:48 PM

It's per calendar date. You had 18 messages for 11/30/10. Click on your name and your message history comes up. You're fine so far today.

- Virgil (Mod)

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Virgil Syonid
Message #89 - 12/01/10 09:22 PM

Sorry to do this on here, but does editing ones post and adding more information consider another post, I was doing that yesterday, and think it may have shown up as more posts than I actually did.

It's OK to edit existing posts and add new info. Editing doesn't show up as new posts.

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whathappentothegeometro
Message #90 - 12/01/10 10:00 PM



How about the oil standard back by gold?

Just thinking out loud while I read these posts.

[Virgil Showlion]

traelin0
Message #91 - 12/01/10 10:08 PM

How about the oil standard back by gold?

That's sort of what we have now, people just don't "see" it. To understand it all, it's probably good to start with the below links, and go through his archives.

fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/10/its-flow-stupid.html

fofoa.blogspot.com/2010/10/flow-addendum.html

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Ahamburger
Message #92 - 12/02/10 05:53 AM



After reading all of that, let's through this hat in the ring.



What some think will happen, already could have if it wasn't for something... Buffet admitted that BH would have fallen. Wonder why he wants to give something back? A life of profiteering with a wake up call maybe? WHO OWNS WHO? Fed made $9 trillion in emergency overnight loans:

[money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_release/index.htm] money.cnn.com/2010/12/01/news/economy/fed_reserve_data_rel>

Man I sure do love me some apples..

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anonymous888
Message #93 - 12/02/10 06:16 AM

Great post unfortunately in America the Banks and almost every corporation (GM, AIG, etc.) is too BIG to FAIL, whats next Bail Outs for the Rich, oops, we did that already...

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Ahamburger
Message #94 - 12/02/10 06:44 AM

whats next Bail Outs for the Rich, oops, we did that already

.. Nice one. Now that is what I call getting owned.



I think we should write these rich people that are saying they are giving back and demand that they start(or maybe start one for them) a facebook, myspace, twitter, blogingwhatzmohoozer; showing exactly what they are doing with these billions of dollars! With that kind a cheddar they could fix a lot of bad areas in the US. Scratch that, the WORLD!!!

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traelin0
Message #95 - 12/02/10 04:30 PM

I think we should write these rich people that are saying they are giving back and demand that they start(or maybe start one for them) a facebook, myspace, twitter, blogingwhatzmohoozer; showing exactly what they are doing with these billions of dollars! With that kind a cheddar they could fix a lot of bad areas in the US. Scratch that, the WORLD!!!

I'm ready to emigrate to Canada, LOL.

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Ahamburger
Message #96 - 12/03/10 05:39 AM

I'm ready to emigrate to Canada, LOL.

Welcome to the land of beavers, eh!

[Virgil Showlion]

midwesterner123
Message #97 - 12/18/10 03:06 PM



[realitylenses.blogspot.com/2010/12/bust-is-better-than-bailout-iceland-is.html] Bust Is Better Than a Bailout

Here are some reports and opinions about why Ireland (and Greece, and all the other countries lining for IMF/EU/etc. bailout) should default instead of mortgage their country and the next generations.

Iceland Is No Ireland as State Kept Free of Bank Debt
Nov. 26 (Bloomberg) -- Iceland·s President Olafur R. Grimsson [...] said ·The difference is that in Iceland we allowed the banks to fail,· [...] ·These were private banks and we didn·t pump money into them in order to keep them going; the state did not shoulder the responsibility of the failed private banks.·
[...]
As a consequence, ·Iceland is faring much better than anybody expected,· Grimsson said. The Icelandic state·s liability on foreign depositor claims stemming from Icesave accounts at failed Landsbanki Islands hf should be put to a national referendum, he said.

·How far can we ask ordinary people -- farmers and fishermen and teachers and doctors and nurses -- to shoulder the responsibility of failed private banks,· said Grimsson. ·That question, which has been at the core of the Icesave issue, will now be the burning issue in many European countries.·

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midwesterner123
Message #98 - 12/18/10 03:09 PM



[] Punish the Bankers! :45 seconds in.

Punishing people that have been directly implicit in setting off a global financial crisis has been a trend seen across Europe. Rogue trader Jerome Kerviel, responsible for one of the biggest banking frauds ever, was sentenced to at least three years in prison and ordered to pay back the nearly $7 billion that he lost for his bank. It's intended to be a stern message to French banks and traders that irresponsible and risky trading and financial irregularities won't be tolerated. And back in May, Iceland took similar measures. And yet in America, you don't see bankers arrested, instead you see them getting bailed out.

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midwesterner123
Message #99 - 12/18/10 03:18 PM



[] Nigel Farage: Euro Empire Collapsing 1:50 into video

RussiaToday--December 01, 2010--Another Eurozone country might need a financial bailout soon. Italy - which is the third largest economy that uses the Euro currency - has started plunging in the same direction as Greece and Ireland. It comes as fresh protests sweep across Europe - with people angry at facing tough cuts to pay for it all. RT talks to European Parliament member Nigel Farage, who's the leader of the UK Independence Party.

[Virgil Showlion]

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VirgilBot TP v0.02 Completed Thread Port - 99 post(s) in 346 seconds.

Final post: Message #99 - 12/18/10 03:18 PM

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[midwesterner (banned)]

Iceland's Financial Crisis How it all began (1/2) (NWO ECONOMICS SERIES/ Destruction Of Nations)



Iceland's Financial Crisis, After Bankruptcy (2/2) (NWO ECONOMICS SERIES/ Destruction Of Nations)



An explaination of the Icelandic banking crisis, a lesson to learn from.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Iceland panel wants charges over 2008 bank collapse

www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE68A1JP20100911

Iceland should bring negligence charges against former ministers over its banking collapse in 2008, a committee of the Althingi parliament said on Saturday, but was split on who should stand trial.

Five of the nine members of the committee want charges brought against former prime minister Geir Haarde, ex-foreign and finance ministers Ingibjorg Solrun Gisladottir and Arni Mathiesen, and former business minister Bjorgvin Sigurdsson.

Iceland's parliament will now decide whether to bring charges. If it decides to go ahead, it would be the first time the Landsdomur -- a special court set up in 1905 to try government ministers accused of crimes -- has sat.

"I cannot comment on the probability of the ministers being put in front of the Landsdomur. I need time to read this report," Prime Minister Johanna Sigurdardottir told reporters.

In late 2008, Iceland's three main banks collapsed under a mountain of debt built up during a decade of overseas expansion, sending the economy into a tailspin.

In April this year, an official investigation into the banking collapse accused Haarde, central bank head David Oddsson and a number of other former officials of gross negligence.

In their report, the investigators said that as a result of rapid overseas expansion, Iceland's main banks -- Kaupthing, Glitnir and Landsbanki -- became too big for the island's economy and the authorities should have reacted.

The parliamentary panel has since been mulling whether to recommend legal action.

The crash left Iceland dependent on overseas aid, led by the International Monetary Fund. It is also saddled with more than $5 billion in debt to Britain and the Netherlands that has complicated its economic recovery plans and could hold up its negotiations to join the European Union

[traelin0]

traelin0
Message #80 - 12/01/10 03:38 PM

[/i]
If we were doing so in an orderly fashion, the first thing that would have to happen is sterilization of Federal Reserve Notes. There are a number of ways to do this, but eventually what it boils down to is the govt. would have to replace the FRNs with United States Notes, to be directly issued by the Treasury via the BEP. It is not a pain-free process and if I can find a very old post I made on this, I'll dig it up; I laid out a quick and dirty formula based on older statistics. Savers would get punished, but they are already being discreetly punished when they are saving with an increasingly worthless medium of exchange that also serves as the de facto store of value.[/size][/quote]
Just curious if anyone recalls this post I made, and the rumormill already starting in the halls of Congress?

Instead, Treasury would issue and spend into circulation United States Notes. The existing "FOMC" would be replicated in Treasury with a mandate identical to The Fed's, with one important addition - a requirement that their operations be neither inflationary or deflationary.

www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=175557

I would like to say I'm surprised that it took anyone other than Ron Paul in Congress this long to understand what we are facing and how to at least temporarily address some of our issues; but I'm not. The fact of the matter is that govt. is not going to give up its ability to print, so the best compromise is to allow gold to float freely as the standard by which those United States Notes are measured, hence the state of devaluation of each nation-state's currency.

[midwesterner (banned)]

No bailouts in Iceland

Listen up, this is a good one, and explains the real debt enslavement that was trying to be set up there, and will if we don't learn from this, it will be our future if we don't understand how Iceland got out of this, and follow step with the global banking cartels.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert on Iceland



Gotta love Max, Decoy you'll like this one!!

[midwesterner (banned)]

Now I post a lot about Iceland because we need to understand this situation, and what's coming to the rest of us. This on a much larger scale is coming, and we must learn from this situation and understand how Iceland found a way out.

[midwesterner (banned)]

Iceland has been tough with creditors and kind to itself. Ireland may wish it had done the same

21.12.2010

www.economist.com/node/17732935?story_id=17732935

A new article in The Economist argues that Ireland could learn something from Iceland on how to handle financial difficulties.

The Economist points out, for one, that on the Misery Index (unemployment plus inflation), Iceland's level of "misery" has been steadily declining, and this year went below Ireland's, which is on its way up.

"Evidence of economic recovery in Iceland means the Irish can no longer persuade themselves that things are worse elsewhere," the article says in part. "Figures released on December 7th showed that Iceland’s GDP rose by 1.2% in the third quarter (Ireland’s third-quarter GDP rose by 0.5%, according to figures published on December 16th). The Icelandic central bank’s benchmark interest rate has fallen to 4.5%, from a peak of 18%. The halving of the dollar value of the Icelandic krona at the height of the crisis pushed inflation as high as 18.6%. It has since fallen close to the central bank’s 2.5% target. The 'misery index', a crude grading that sums unemployment and inflation rates, suggests Iceland is now doing better than Ireland (see chart)."

Iceland’s recuperation seems to offer two big lessons for Ireland and other troubled euro-zone countries. The first is that the extra cost to a country of not standing by its banks can be surprisingly small. Iceland let its banks fail and its GDP fell by 15% from its highest point before it reached bottom. Ireland “saved” its banks and saw its output drop by 14% from peak to trough.

A second lesson is that the benefits to a small country of being part of a big currency union are not all they were once cracked up to be. When panicky investors were rushing out of small currencies in the autumn of 2008, the euro seemed a haven. There was much talk in Iceland of fast-tracked membership of the European Union and, ultimately, the euro. Two years on, the euro looks more like a trap for countries struggling to regain export competitiveness. Greece and Ireland have lost the confidence of markets, even though both issue bonds in euros. Iceland’s voters are cooler about joining the EU and the euro.

Both lessons have to be heavily qualified. Iceland let its banks fail out of necessity, not choice.

Even so, that Iceland’s economy has done little worse than Ireland’s is still a triumph. It has been tough with its creditors and disregarded some international norms—and recovered. Ireland has stood by its banks to the benefit of the wider European banking system. Its reward has been “rescue” loans at an interest rate that makes it hard to fix its finances. The next Irish government may look at Iceland and decide to play hardball with Europe.

[neohguy]

An interesting article in todays The Automatic Earth by Ashvin Pandurangi. His views on sovreign debt:
theautomaticearth.blogspot.com/

A Spectre Still Haunts Europe ... and America

But this time it's not necessarily Communism, or any other label used by humans to conveniently understand their complex forms of socioeconomic organization. It's the spectre of an unrelenting reality, emerging from the depths of history, with no plans to follow but its own. What exactly, then, is reality and why does it have its own plans? These are not easy questions to answer, but many brilliant minds have had much to write and say on the topic. It may be safe to say with near certainty that, if nothing else, reality is constantly evolving and always lingering in the furthest boundaries of our comprehension.

The famous German philosopher, Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, is most readily identified with using the dialectic process to describe reality. It is the process in which opposing forces of nature push and pull with each other in a very non-linear fashion, until one rapidly gives way to the other or there is a synthesis of both. This framework, of course, is itself a simplifying abstraction used to understand the complex evolution of historical processes, but it also reflects a deep truth that many people fail to recognize throughout their lives.

Although Hegel rediscovered and thoroughly popularized the dialectic method within the social sciences, he somewhat naively believed that human ideas, as a reflection of God's thoughts, were the driving force of reality's evolution. Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels adopted Hegel's method in their socioeconomic analysis, but they completely "turned it on its head". As Marx explained:
My dialectic method is not only different from the Hegelian, but is its direct opposite. To Hegel, the life-process of the human brain, i.e. the process of thinking, which, under the name of 'the Idea,' he even transforms into an independent subject, is the demiurgos of the real world, and the real world is only the external, phenomenal form of 'the Idea.' With me, on the contrary, the ideal is nothing else than the material world reflected by the human mind, and translated into forms of thought." (Capital, Volume 1, Moscow, 1970, p. 29).


One of the the hot topics in the "material world" right now is the European Union and its increasingly imminent disintegration. Toxic debts from sovereign nations across this region can no longer be serviced at their true cost, so everyone is clamoring to find the "best" way to subsidize such debt and avoid a wholesale restructuring, in which all the imaginary wealth on the balance sheets of major banks would simply evaporate. Many commentators are enraged at the idea that U.S., French or German taxpayers would have to subsidize the profligate ways of Greece, Ireland and those soon to follow in their footsteps. At the very least, these bailouts should be preceded by or conditioned with strict austerity measures designed to bring an end to the failed welfare/entitlement state and re-establish values of "personal responsibility".

Some of the more astute commentators are enraged at the idea that Greek, Irish and other EU citizens will soon be forced to live with much fewer public benefits and much higher taxes to keep malicious banks and their crony governments in power. They correctly point out that such a path of austerity is "economic suicide" and will only lead to more suffering in the long-run. Instead, they advocate that these countries should refuse to honor their unproductive debts to banks, break away from the monetary union and reissue their own national currency. While this "option" will certainly lead to uncertainty, disorder and a significant destruction of both real and imaginary wealth in the short-term, it represents the only true path to a just and sustainable future.

However misguided the bailout/austerity advocates may be, or correct the "sovereign defaulters" may be, they both seem to place themselves outside of a larger dialectic process. For the latter especially, it is absurd that anyone could possibly think bailouts conditioned on harsh austerity measures could be a good path forward for the countries involved. Why can't these people see that too much debt is the problem, and subsidizing existing debt or adding more debt will not solve it? Isn't it clear by now that TBTF banks are parasites, constantly sucking productive capital out of the global economy, and no amount of austerity will positively impact sovereign debt problems as long as they remain in operation? Perhaps the answers to those questions lie outside the realm of conscious human decision, and in the realm of complex historical evolution.
There is an ever-present debate which occurs over big government vs. small government, public entitlements vs. privatized markets, public spending vs. austerity, etc. These concepts are typically perceived as independent ideas that exist so humans can choose one over the other, but they are actually two sides of the same coin, one side being necessary for the other side to exist. Looking at only the most recent period of history, it was the credit bubble and subsequent housing crash which created the "need" for European states to respond forcefully with deficit spending.

This universal spending across the developed world, in turn, contributed to the runs on sovereign bond markets in the Eurozone, creating the "need" for regional/global institutions to respond forcefully with plans of bailouts and/or austerity. Despite these measures, the housing markets across these countries remain extremely fragile and bond markets across Europe continue to show symptoms of an incurable disease. The dialectic evidence is right in front of our eyes, where it will remain, as one force rapidly gives way to another.
The opposing forces of modern times are different from those of Marx and Engels only in form, but never in function. It is the ongoing clash between the increasingly rich and increasingly poor, the extractors of economic rents and the sellers of debt, the oppressors and the oppressed. Whatever the specific characterization of the simple dialectic involved, it must be viewed as a direct product of historical processes that have evolved over time. There should be absolutely no surprise at the fact that people hold diametrically opposed ideas on how nations around the world should proceed to deal with their debt issues. They are just ideas, after all, and they reflect an underlying tension in the material relations of human existence.

The general outcome of our current dialectic struggle will not be governed by these ambitious ideas, but by the natural forces of antagonistic evolution. Large swaths of unproductive private and public debt will not be repaid, and sovereign countries will default on their obligations. International monetary, political or strategic unions that rely on economic stability, mutual trust and confidence will not be preserved in any meaningful form. Citizens of the developed world will not stand in a single-file line and receive their bitter dose of austerity in an orderly fashion. These things are almost 100% certain, and no amount of conscious planning or top-down decision-making will make them less likely to occur.
I realize that the points made above, taken to their logical extreme, could imply that human beings have no "control" over their collective future, and therefore effectively no "free will". This implication, among many other things, could render the relentless criticisms of commentators around the world, including me, acts of zero importance or influence. If the future is set to evolve from complex, oppositional forces of nature, then there is nothing left to do but wait and watch it all unfold. Indeed, the enigma of free will, and the nature of reality itself, have been painstakingly analyzed by both scientists and philosophers alike, with no firm conclusions ever reached.

Personally, I find it at least worth noting that people are always obsessing about the differences between what is and what could have been. Despite the fact that history continues to repeat itself at the most fundamental levels, humans never seem to learn from the past, change their collective behaviors and break the "vicious" cycle. It seems we always address our systemic problems with too little, too late, and are then left with intractable predicaments to face. European politicians and financial analysts may yap all day about what should be done to solve their sovereign debt problems, or what they plan to do, but I am only interested in what will happen, and that seems to be a process increasingly disconnected from even the most clever ideas or plans of human beings.
Our individual actions, however, are not unimportant or meaningless. Regardless of whether they result from freely-constructed decisions or a complex deterministic process, they are the constituents of our future. The theoretical underpinnings of reality may become largely irrelevant in terms of our practical ability to remain secure and healthy in the upcoming years. Furthermore, there are certainly many people out there with extremely flawed and/or dangerous ideas. On the off chance that our freely-chosen words and actions actually do have influence, it would be unwise not to speak out against such ideas. So I remain critical of misguided policies and opinions and do not hesitate to express such views, but I will always try to temper my personal judgments with a broader understanding of historical evolution. For that process is truly a spectre that no person can tame.

[vl]

One of the the hot topics in the "material world" right now is the European Union and its increasingly imminent disintegration.

Read more: notmsnmoney.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=moneytalk&action=display&thread=454#ixzz19PzeaJ94

The "hotter" topic is-- how does one claim a 'loss' on an investment consisting of a debt to a nation caused by and now held by-- that same investor?
Iceland proved that you can 'ice' your bank and when you do, birds still fly and people still make an economy.

CLOSE the banks, eliminate ALL central banks, recover Earth.

[comokate]

Dec 28, 2010 9:54:57 GMT -5 @vl said:

CLOSE the banks, eliminate ALL central banks, recover Earth.

I agree V.L., but short of a Revolution, how do you pry the greedy hands of the few, off of the resources of many ?

[midwesterner (banned)]

Iceland ranks 15th in World Bank and IFC ‘Doing Business 2011’ economy list

Monday, 8 November 2010
iceland.world-countries.net/archives/24582

According to a new report released by The World Bank and the International Finance Corporation (IFC) entitled ‘Doing Business 2011’, Iceland currently ranks in 15th place for the easiest economy to do business in.
The Economy Rankings assessment list, which was conducted between June 2009 and May 2010, involves 183 countries and takes into account various legal aspects related to each respective country and how these impact upon starting and operating a local business.

The list averages each country’s rankings in regards to 9 specific topics: Starting a Business; Dealing with Construction Permits; Registering Property; Getting Credit; Protecting Investors; Paying Taxes; Trading Across Borders; Enforcing Contracts and Closing a Business.