EVT1
Junior Associate
Joined: Dec 30, 2010 16:22:42 GMT -5
Posts: 8,596
|
Post by EVT1 on May 30, 2015 20:30:59 GMT -5
So what? You are missing the point. Richard has no idea what the fuck he is talking about- somehow he mixed the death penalty with sucicidal people and went off the deep end. Not the first time he has had an insane argument
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,159
|
Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 20:41:22 GMT -5
Well, his phrasing was awkward. I'll grant you that.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 20:46:47 GMT -5
So what? You are missing the point. Richard has no idea what the fuck he is talking about- somehow he mixed the death penalty with sucicidal people and went off the deep end. Not the first time he has had an insane argument
LOL... actually djAdvocate is the one that skewed things off the deep end.
|
|
deziloooooo
Senior Associate
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
Posts: 10,723
|
Post by deziloooooo on May 30, 2015 22:17:47 GMT -5
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nebraskas-death-penalty-repealed-veto-override-n365456done. Nebraska just became the 19th state to abolish the death penalty. kudos to the great state of Nebraska. Nebraska's Death Penalty Repealed With Veto Override By Tracy Connor and Elizabeth Chuck
Nebraska became the first conservative state in more than 40 years to abolish the death penalty on Wednesday when lawmakers boldly voted 30-19 to override the governor's veto.
There are 10 inmates on Nebraska's death row — the 11th died this week — but the state has not executed anyone since 1997 and only recently ordered the drugs necessary to carry out a lethal injection. It's the 19th state to abolish capital punishment.
Lawmakers across the political spectrum came together to pass a repeal bill three times. Gov. Pete Ricketts, a first-term Republican, then vetoed the legislation on Tuesday. Thirty senators were needed to override him.
Their vote was preceded by hours of debate — with opponents and proponents quoting Bible passages and reading emails from constituents to support their position.
"The death penalty in Nebraska is broken. It's time to repeal it," said Sen. Jeremy Nordquist, a Democrat, who voted to end capital punishment. major defeat for the Governor. On another web site I believe the Governor said that he is still going to proceed with the carrying out the sentences ..actually trying to speed them up if possible..even though the legislature over rode his veto..Seems he doesn't believe in the "wwill of the people.." ior demcrate doings..seems he is more in mind of being the all knowing dictator of all..Hopefully the electorate might want to show him their fury when the time comes for reelection if he is interested in rerunning..I really know squat about Nebraska and their voting habits..
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2015 22:41:01 GMT -5
www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/nebraskas-death-penalty-repealed-veto-override-n365456done. Nebraska just became the 19th state to abolish the death penalty. kudos to the great state of Nebraska. Nebraska's Death Penalty Repealed With Veto Override By Tracy Connor and Elizabeth Chuck
Nebraska became the first conservative state in more than 40 years to abolish the death penalty on Wednesday when lawmakers boldly voted 30-19 to override the governor's veto.
There are 10 inmates on Nebraska's death row — the 11th died this week — but the state has not executed anyone since 1997 and only recently ordered the drugs necessary to carry out a lethal injection. It's the 19th state to abolish capital punishment.
Lawmakers across the political spectrum came together to pass a repeal bill three times. Gov. Pete Ricketts, a first-term Republican, then vetoed the legislation on Tuesday. Thirty senators were needed to override him.
Their vote was preceded by hours of debate — with opponents and proponents quoting Bible passages and reading emails from constituents to support their position.
"The death penalty in Nebraska is broken. It's time to repeal it," said Sen. Jeremy Nordquist, a Democrat, who voted to end capital punishment. major defeat for the Governor. On another web site I believe the Governor said that he is still going to proceed with the carrying out the sentences ..actually trying to speed them up if possible..even though the legislature over rode his veto..Seems he doesn't believe in the "wwill of the people.." ior demcrate doings..seems he is more in mind of being the all knowing dictator of all..Hopefully the electorate might want to show him their fury when the time comes for reelection if he is interested in rerunning..I really know squat about Nebraska and their voting habits.. i don't think he has the authority to do that, actually. but we'll see.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2015 22:42:15 GMT -5
So what? You are missing the point. Richard has no idea what the fuck he is talking about- somehow he mixed the death penalty with sucicidal people and went off the deep end. Not the first time he has had an insane argument
LOL... actually djAdvocate is the one that skewed things off the deep end. how so. were you or were you not comparing state power to kill with individual power to commit suicide?
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2015 22:43:40 GMT -5
no, but you are advocating for them to have the power to do so on our behalf, which inexorably leads there. that is the part YOU are missing. No. I am advocating that they be able to do so on behalf of the individual requesting it by his/her own individual actions/choices. oh. so, if a prisoner objects to it, then you are opposed to the death penalty? (that was a joke, in case you were wondering)
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 23:01:21 GMT -5
No. I am advocating that they be able to do so on behalf of the individual requesting it by his/her own individual actions/choices. oh. so, if a prisoner objects to it, then you are opposed to the death penalty? (that was a joke, in case you were wondering) By the very nature of doing the thing that makes them a prisoner, they have already approved of the action... deeds are more exemplary than words... everyone knows that. (and yes, I knew you were joking... but I addressed it anyway )
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 30, 2015 23:02:17 GMT -5
LOL... actually djAdvocate is the one that skewed things off the deep end. how so. were you or were you not comparing state power to kill with individual power to commit suicide? You however were the one intentionally misinterpreting what others have said (your reply to me, Reply #18) into fanciful flights of illogic.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2015 23:30:16 GMT -5
oh. so, if a prisoner objects to it, then you are opposed to the death penalty? (that was a joke, in case you were wondering) By the very nature of doing the thing that makes them a prisoner, they have already approved of the action i strenuously disagree that criminals approve of their punishment. the state has a standard it must meet in order to dole that punishment out, and that is completely independent of the crime. it is ONLY dependent on the ability of the state to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and given the very high number of errors in capital punishment convictions, i see no reason to trust the state. however, i would not want it to be the case even if the state were 100% accurate in convictions, for reasons i have already stated.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 30, 2015 23:32:16 GMT -5
how so. were you or were you not comparing state power to kill with individual power to commit suicide? You however were the one intentionally misinterpreting what others have said (your reply to me, Reply #18) into fanciful flights of illogic. you didn't answer the question. is that what you were trying to say or not? again, Richard, i am REALLY TRYING to understand you. please do NOT refer back to earlier posts, or we will spend all evening arguing when a simple yes or no will suffice. edit: tyia
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,159
|
Post by tallguy on May 30, 2015 23:51:22 GMT -5
By the very nature of doing the thing that makes them a prisoner, they have already approved of the action i strenuously disagree that criminals approve of their punishment. the state has a standard it must meet in order to dole that punishment out, and that is completely independent of the crime. it is ONLY dependent on the ability of the state to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and given the very high number of errors in capital punishment convictions, i see no reason to trust the state. however, i would not want it to be the case even if the state were 100% accurate in convictions, for reasons i have already stated. Not to in any way speak for Richard, but I can give you my interpretation of it. In place of the words "approve of" can we substitute "consent to?" If a person commits an act which has the death penalty as a possible punishment, can they not be said to consent to that punishment if they are caught and convicted? They may not think they will be caught, but by committing the offense do they not accept all ensuing possibilities of that act?
If the possible death penalty is not acceptable to them they would not commit the offense. But then we are back to it being a deterrent, which almost all agree it is not.
|
|
billisonboard
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 20, 2010 22:45:44 GMT -5
Posts: 37,476
Member is Online
|
Post by billisonboard on May 30, 2015 23:51:24 GMT -5
So we don't agree. No problem. We do agree... the one I struck thru didn't apply. ETA: things "slash separated" (like and/or) to me denote similarities or ability to be used interchangeably in the location they reside in. "Murder/suicide" don't fit that criteria in that sentence... because one is "the unwanted loss of life by the one that was alive" whereas the other one is the exact opposite (the wanted taking of life by the one that was alive). I stand corrected. I should have used a dash.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 0:09:55 GMT -5
By the very nature of doing the thing that makes them a prisoner, they have already approved of the action i strenuously disagree that criminals approve of their punishment. the state has a standard it must meet in order to dole that punishment out, and that is completely independent of the crime. it is ONLY dependent on the ability of the state to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and given the very high number of errors in capital punishment convictions, i see no reason to trust the state. however, i would not want it to be the case even if the state were 100% accurate in convictions, for reasons i have already stated. They may disapprove VERBALLY, but their freely chosen ACTIONS speak much louder than their mouths. What's that old saying? "Actions speak louder than words"?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 0:22:21 GMT -5
You however were the one intentionally misinterpreting what others have said (your reply to me, Reply #18) into fanciful flights of illogic. you didn't answer the question. is that what you were trying to say or not? again, Richard, i am REALLY TRYING to understand you. please do NOT refer back to earlier posts, or we will spend all evening arguing when a simple yes or no will suffice. edit: tyia My apologies. I believed my answer was inferred by my "you however..." and lack of stating that I was not. Yes. I was comparing the two, because in this instance they ARE comparable. Because in this instance, and ONLY in this instance, the "state power to kill" is the weapon of the individual TO commit suicide.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 0:31:11 GMT -5
you didn't answer the question. is that what you were trying to say or not? again, Richard, i am REALLY TRYING to understand you. please do NOT refer back to earlier posts, or we will spend all evening arguing when a simple yes or no will suffice. edit: tyia My apologies. I believed my answer was inferred by my "you however..." and lack of stating that I was not. Yes. I was comparing the two, because in this instance they ARE comparable. Because in this instance, and ONLY in this instance, the "state power to kill" is the weapon of the individual TO commit suicide. you have a curious view of either state power or suicide, but thanks for answering the question.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 0:33:14 GMT -5
i strenuously disagree that criminals approve of their punishment. the state has a standard it must meet in order to dole that punishment out, and that is completely independent of the crime. it is ONLY dependent on the ability of the state to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. and given the very high number of errors in capital punishment convictions, i see no reason to trust the state. however, i would not want it to be the case even if the state were 100% accurate in convictions, for reasons i have already stated. They may disapprove VERBALLY, but their freely chosen ACTIONS speak much louder than their mouths. What's that old saying? "Actions speak louder than words"? i believe that consent is either verbal or written. if i commit a crime, i am not consenting to punishment. if you are, that will make prosecution rather easy.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,159
|
Post by tallguy on May 31, 2015 0:38:27 GMT -5
Okay, I give up. I admit it. You guys are right. I thought I had it, but he lost me there.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 0:42:15 GMT -5
Okay, I give up. I admit it. You guys are right. I thought I had it, but he lost me there.
he is starting with the false premise that "crime is consent to punishment" and concluding with "therefore murder is consent to suicide/death". both the premise and the conclusion are false. crime is consent to nothing. punishment is inherently non-consensual.
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 0:52:37 GMT -5
They may disapprove VERBALLY, but their freely chosen ACTIONS speak much louder than their mouths. What's that old saying? "Actions speak louder than words"? i believe that consent is either verbal or written. if i commit a crime, i am not consenting to punishment. if you are, that will make prosecution rather easy. If a woman is having vigorous (on her part) sex with you (you are just laying there, she's doing all the "work") but has never said or written "I consent to having sex with you"... has she consented... or not?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 0:55:48 GMT -5
Okay, I give up. I admit it. You guys are right. I thought I had it, but he lost me there.
he is starting with the false premise that "crime is consent to punishment" and concluding with "therefore murder is consent to suicide/death". both the premise and the conclusion are false. crime is consent to nothing. punishment is inherently non-consensual. Incorrect. I am stating the true and factual premise that commission of a crime is acceptance (and even request) of the punishment (if caught). Both are true.
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,159
|
Post by tallguy on May 31, 2015 1:19:46 GMT -5
i believe that consent is either verbal or written. if i commit a crime, i am not consenting to punishment. if you are, that will make prosecution rather easy. If a woman is having vigorous (on her part) sex with you (you are just laying there, she's doing all the "work") but has never said or written "I consent to having sex with you"... has she consented... or not? Wouldn't the question in that case be, "Did you consent to sex with her?"
|
|
tallguy
Senior Associate
Joined: Apr 2, 2011 19:21:59 GMT -5
Posts: 14,159
|
Post by tallguy on May 31, 2015 1:35:19 GMT -5
Okay, I give up. I admit it. You guys are right. I thought I had it, but he lost me there.
he is starting with the false premise that "crime is consent to punishment" and concluding with "therefore murder is consent to suicide/death". both the premise and the conclusion are false. crime is consent to nothing. punishment is inherently non-consensual. I'm not sure I would agree with that. I certainly do not agree with the suicide tangent he took, but the premise of crime consenting to possible punishment is not far-fetched. It would require that the criminal be imbued with the ability to look ahead logically in order for that to be articulated, but I think it can be implied. The choice to not commit a crime for fear of consequence certainly exists. Isn't this just the converse of that?
|
|
Deleted
Joined: May 1, 2024 22:31:13 GMT -5
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 1:53:58 GMT -5
If a woman is having vigorous (on her part) sex with you (you are just laying there, she's doing all the "work") but has never said or written "I consent to having sex with you"... has she consented... or not? Wouldn't the question in that case be, "Did you consent to sex with her?" No. In this type of case, we are dealing with the consent of the "actor" only. Whether HE is willing or not is irrelevant to whether on not SHE is. He says "consent is either verbal or written". I contend that actions can be considered consent.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 10:30:45 GMT -5
i believe that consent is either verbal or written. if i commit a crime, i am not consenting to punishment. if you are, that will make prosecution rather easy. If a woman is having vigorous (on her part) sex with you (you are just laying there, she's doing all the "work") but has never said or written "I consent to having sex with you"... has she consented... or not? perfect example. if a woman does not CONSENT to that sex, it can be construed as rape.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 10:32:24 GMT -5
he is starting with the false premise that "crime is consent to punishment" and concluding with "therefore murder is consent to suicide/death". both the premise and the conclusion are false. crime is consent to nothing. punishment is inherently non-consensual. I'm not sure I would agree with that. I certainly do not agree with the suicide tangent he took, but the premise of crime consenting to possible punishment is not far-fetched. It would require that the criminal be imbued with the ability to look ahead logically in order for that to be articulated, but I think it can be implied. The choice to not commit a crime for fear of consequence certainly exists. Isn't this just the converse of that? there is no consent in crime. it is inherently non-consensual at all levels. the victim does not consent to the crime, and the perpetrator does not consent to punishment. if either were the case, there would be no need for a legal system. it is actually quite a simple concept, imo.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 10:33:12 GMT -5
Wouldn't the question in that case be, "Did you consent to sex with her?" No. In this type of case, we are dealing with the consent of the "actor" only. Whether HE is willing or not is irrelevant to whether on not SHE is. He says "consent is either verbal or written". I contend that actions can be considered consent. i contend that that attitude could land you in jail.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 10:34:17 GMT -5
he is starting with the false premise that "crime is consent to punishment" and concluding with "therefore murder is consent to suicide/death". both the premise and the conclusion are false. crime is consent to nothing. punishment is inherently non-consensual. Incorrect. I am stating the true and factual premise that commission of a crime is acceptance (and even request) of the punishment (if caught). Both are true. incorrect. both are false. there is no consent in crime. that is actually what makes it crime.
|
|
djAdvocate
Member Emeritus
only posting when the mood strikes me.
Joined: Jun 21, 2011 12:33:54 GMT -5
Posts: 75,129
Mini-Profile Background: {"image":"","color":"000307"}
|
Post by djAdvocate on May 31, 2015 10:35:32 GMT -5
Richard: if you are not going to budge, neither am i, and this is going to devolve into playground "you're wrong" echoing.
so, are we done?
|
|
zibazinski
Community Leader
Joined: Dec 24, 2010 16:12:50 GMT -5
Posts: 47,866
|
Post by zibazinski on May 31, 2015 12:29:01 GMT -5
I'm so confused!
|
|