Why New York Women Wish They Lived In Mad Men Era

[djAdvocate]

May 20, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 20, 2015 10:27:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jello Biafra calls this "nostalgia for an age that never existed".  people tend to see all of the stuff that looks attractive about an era and forget all of the stuff that sucked about it.  the truth is, NOBODY wants things the way they were, other than the people that benefited most during that time, and it sure as hell was not the women.

I make it a habit to speak to older people about the way things really were.  I think most people have ideas of the 1950's and 1960's that have been painstakingly crafted from liberal and feminist folklore that are every bit the fantasy as "nostalgia for an age that never existed"- which I do not argue is a real thing.

I read the article differently.  I ASSUMED that the author both knows, and knows we know, that "Mad Men" is the stuff of fantasy from Hollywood.  It is my opinion that the author simply used the show as a device to address the substance at the heart of what's really bothering her: a lack of stability, predictability, and normalcy that comes from traditional (natural) gender roles.  

She cited statistics- they are what they are.  

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now?  There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed". 

i have no idea what you are talking about, as usual.  but i do have at least one thing to say about it:

my family is way more functional than my dad's was.  no disrespect.  loved my dad (RIP), but he had no clue how to parent.  and the same is true for most families i know.  their kids are not on drugs or in juvinile hall, they are getting good grades, they are smart, and they care about the world.

i am sure there were good families growing up, but none that i knew of.  seriously.  most of my friends ended up on drugs and dropping out.

[AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP]

May 20, 2015 18:36:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 20, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

I make it a habit to speak to older people about the way things really were.  I think most people have ideas of the 1950's and 1960's that have been painstakingly crafted from liberal and feminist folklore that are every bit the fantasy as "nostalgia for an age that never existed"- which I do not argue is a real thing.

I read the article differently.  I ASSUMED that the author both knows, and knows we know, that "Mad Men" is the stuff of fantasy from Hollywood.  It is my opinion that the author simply used the show as a device to address the substance at the heart of what's really bothering her: a lack of stability, predictability, and normalcy that comes from traditional (natural) gender roles.  

She cited statistics- they are what they are.  

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now?  There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed". 

i have no idea what you are talking about, as usual.  but i do have at least one thing to say about it:

my family is way more functional than my dad's was.  no disrespect.  loved my dad (RIP), but he had no clue how to parent.  and the same is true for most families i know.  their kids are not on drugs or in juvinile hall, they are getting good grades, they are smart, and they care about the world.

i am sure there were good families growing up, but none that i knew of.  seriously.  most of my friends ended up on drugs and dropping out.

I love my Mom & Dad, too- but in all modesty, my wife and I are better in just about every way than both of our sets of parents.  Our marriage is healthier, are kids are happier, more well-rounded, and better adjusted than we ever were, we're better off financially, and we're far more physically fit.  I like to think we're even more mature spiritually, but I'll leave that judgment to the Man Upstairs.  And He is a Man.    Most of the families I knew were normal. My wife's parents divorced when we were adults- I only knew one kid my entire childhood whose parents were divorced- and his dad was out of the picture, and his mom was very happily re-married and things were very much family-like in his home with any step-dad strife well-hidden. I can honestly say none of my friends "ended up on drugs" (though many "started out" on drugs   . 

[djAdvocate]

May 20, 2015 18:48:58 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 20, 2015 18:36:45 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

i have no idea what you are talking about, as usual.  but i do have at least one thing to say about it:

my family is way more functional than my dad's was.  no disrespect.  loved my dad (RIP), but he had no clue how to parent.  and the same is true for most families i know.  their kids are not on drugs or in juvinile hall, they are getting good grades, they are smart, and they care about the world.

i am sure there were good families growing up, but none that i knew of.  seriously.  most of my friends ended up on drugs and dropping out.

I love my Mom & Dad, too- but in all modesty, my wife and I are better in just about every way than both of our sets of parents.  Our marriage is healthier, are kids are happier, more well-rounded, and better adjusted than we ever were, we're better off financially, and we're far more physically fit.  I like to think we're even more mature spiritually, but I'll leave that judgment to the Man Upstairs.  And He is a Man.    Most of the families I knew were normal. My wife's parents divorced when we were adults- I only knew one kid my entire childhood whose parents were divorced- and his dad was out of the picture, and his mom was very happily re-married and things were very much family-like in his home with any step-dad strife well-hidden. I can honestly say none of my friends "ended up on drugs" (though many "started out" on drugs   . 

well done, Paul.  there is no higher honor than being a good parent.  seriously.  kudos.

[Opti]

May 20, 2015 18:20:36 GMT -5 AgeOfEnlightenmentSCP said:

May 20, 2015 10:27:43 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

Jello Biafra calls this "nostalgia for an age that never existed".  people tend to see all of the stuff that looks attractive about an era and forget all of the stuff that sucked about it.  the truth is, NOBODY wants things the way they were, other than the people that benefited most during that time, and it sure as hell was not the women.

I make it a habit to speak to older people about the way things really were.  I think most people have ideas of the 1950's and 1960's that have been painstakingly crafted from liberal and feminist folklore that are every bit the fantasy as "nostalgia for an age that never existed"- which I do not argue is a real thing.

I read the article differently.  I ASSUMED that the author both knows, and knows we know, that "Mad Men" is the stuff of fantasy from Hollywood.  It is my opinion that the author simply used the show as a device to address the substance at the heart of what's really bothering her: a lack of stability, predictability, and normalcy that comes from traditional (natural) gender roles.  

She cited statistics- they are what they are.  

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now?  There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed". 

Here's the thing, if you are really into traditional gender roles and family values, Mad Men is one of the worst choices you could make IMO. All three main male characters that are married cheat on their wives,

and by season five two of the three are divorced. (Don Draper and Roger Sterling) Pete Campbell the third lead male character has an affair with Peggy, gets her pregnant and never really acknowledges the child or

provides support for the child. Actually there are six main characters listed per the Wiki page and at the end of season five only two of the six are not divorced. One, Peggy, is not even married.

The show wanted to document those changing times including changing gender roles and the acceptance of divorce. Not sure which season had it on the bonus features but there was some nice historical stuff about divorce and when the rate started to rise in the 1960s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men

[weltschmerz]

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now? There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed".

You can't possibly be serious!! It happened to me and just about every woman I know.

But you know best, Paul. You were a fly on the wall in every office, every restaurant, every store, etc., where woman were not only getting their asses pinched and slapped, but were threatened with losing their jobs if they complained.

I don't doubt you, ever.

[djAdvocate]

May 20, 2015 19:14:29 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now? There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed".

You can't possibly be serious!! It happened to me and just about every woman I know.

But you know best, Paul. You were a fly on the wall in every office, every restaurant, every store, etc., where woman were not only getting their asses pinched and slapped, but were threatened with losing their jobs if they complained.

I don't doubt you, ever.

like i say, i have no idea what he is talking about. 

edit: for the record, i think he misused the term nostalgia.  you can't be nostalgic about something that sucks.

[weltschmerz]

May 20, 2015 19:21:03 GMT -5 djAdvocate said:

May 20, 2015 19:14:29 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

You can't possibly be serious!! It happened to me and just about every woman I know.

But you know best, Paul. You were a fly on the wall in every office, every restaurant, every store, etc., where woman were not only getting their asses pinched and slapped, but were threatened with losing their jobs if they complained.

I don't doubt you, ever.

like i say, i have no idea what he is talking about. 

Does anyone?

[busymom]

Leave It to Beaver?!? No way! My Mom & her friends HATED June Cleaver, because really, who wears dresses & pearls when doing housework?

[djAdvocate]

May 20, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5 busymom said:

Leave It to Beaver?!? No way! My Mom & her friends HATED June Cleaver, because really, who wears dresses & pearls when doing housework?

who wears a $5,000 suit while flipping pancakes?


oh, that's right.  Romney.

[weltschmerz]

Ah yes...the good old days!

[djAdvocate]

May 20, 2015 20:01:22 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ah yes...the good old days!

fugly tie for fugly men?

[weltschmerz]

[Opti]

I think the author and the OP might be on a similar page. Neither lived through the 60s and rereading the article I noticed there were a couple recurring themes which likely makes more sense to those who didn't live during those times.

Theme 1: Life was easier for single women, love was easier to find...

Theme 2: Men in the 60s were cooler then men now...

 (Apparently the dressing up thing is so important, it is mentioned three times. )

Theme 3: After hours, though, some of us long for men who can treat us not only as equals to be respected, but as women to be desired — and cherished.

IMO has nothing to do with then or now. If you watch the series, I'm wondering how you are really seeing women cherished by their partners except if you choose to count Peggy and her boyfriends.

[Tennesseer]

May 20, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5 busymom said:

Leave It to Beaver?!? No way! My Mom & her friends HATED June Cleaver, because really, who wears dresses & pearls when doing housework?

June Cleaver learned many things while cleaning her house, like jive:

[zibazinski]

May 20, 2015 19:49:15 GMT -5 busymom said:

Leave It to Beaver?!? No way! My Mom & her friends HATED June Cleaver, because really, who wears dresses & pearls when doing housework?

My Grandma. . Seriously.

[zibazinski]

Perhaps some of the nostalgia is for a time when women weren't expected to work two jobs?

[happyhoix]

May 20, 2015 19:14:29 GMT -5 weltschmerz said:

Ozzy and Harriett, and Leave It To Beaver may have been fantasy- but what do you think is on now? There's no such thing as "Modern Family", either. And Mad Men was a fantasy- there never was a "man's world" where men chased women around the office pinching their asses and yelling at them to get coffee-- that, too, is "nostalgia for an age that never existed".

You can't possibly be serious!! It happened to me and just about every woman I know.

But you know best, Paul. You were a fly on the wall in every office, every restaurant, every store, etc., where woman were not only getting their asses pinched and slapped, but were threatened with losing their jobs if they complained.

I don't doubt you, ever.

My MIL was a secretary in the 50's and she's told me tons of stories about the sexual harassment that took place back then, and how you either allowed yourself to be harassed or found another job, because allowing your boss to fondle your ass was a job requirement back then.

Not going to bother listing her stories here, though, because those people who want to believe it's a fantasy will continue to firmly believe that.

Reminds me of some of the Southerners I live around who insisted black people were happier back in the days of slavery, how slave owners never beat or abused their slaves because they were so valuable, how all the darkies just sang and danced and had fun all day long, not like now.    

[zibazinski]

Well, I know women who lived through those time periods. Like every time, there was good and bad to them. Some envy the women of these periods, some don't.

[happyhoix]

May 20, 2015 15:44:29 GMT -5 Tennesseer said:

May 20, 2015 13:11:22 GMT -5 happyhoix said:

Actually I liked the show, because I was born in 1960, and they captured the 60's and 70's pretty good, at least what I remember, from my child's memory. Smoking everywhere, the pencil skirts and beehive hairdos, the kids in saddle shoes.

I didn't particularly like any of the characters, (well, I liked Peggy, until she got to be too much like Don) but I enjoyed the sense of deja vu, plus it had a train wreck quality about it that made you want to keep watching.

The only way I could see people wanting to relive it, though, would be if they watched it with the sound turned down and focused on the fashions.  

I never watched the show. Did Don Draper ever open-hand slap a woman across the face to put her in her place?

Don't remember Don doing that, but he might have. I do remember a scene where they were having a neighborhood party and the kids were running around inside the house, and one of the dads grabbed someone's little boy (not his own) and slapped him across the face. No one batted an eye, not even the little boy. I'd forgotten how beating kids used to be such a casual activity and pretty much any adult was allowed to do it.

There was also a scene where a doctor was discussing Don's wife's treatment with Don (not with the wife) and the two men were deciding between themselves what needed to be done.

  

[happyhoix]

May 22, 2015 6:56:10 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Well, I know women who lived through those time periods. Like every time, there was good and bad to them. Some envy the women of these periods, some don't.

You're right, I'm sure for all the middle class white men who got to grab their secretary's asses, drink like fish and smoke like chimneys on the job all day while not having to worry about job competition from the minorities and women,  it was a perfectly utopian age.  

[zibazinski]

Well, I had aunts who worked and they had no issues like that. But my grandma had to become a broker because no one would hire her to sell real estate very dumb move because she knew a lot of people and she'd have brought a lot of money to the broker who hired her. Instead she made that money for herself. There's pigs, men and women, even now, to work for. There were good bosses then, too.

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 1:33:27 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Perhaps some of the nostalgia is for a time when women weren't expected to work two jobs?

And could start drinking at noon... Rampant pill and alcohol use among women of that decade.

[Tennesseer]

May 22, 2015 8:39:29 GMT -5 oped said:

May 22, 2015 1:33:27 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Perhaps some of the nostalgia is for a time when women weren't expected to work two jobs?

And could start drinking at noon... Rampant pill and alcohol use among women of that decade.

Mom and her doctor prescribed 'diet' pills. zoom, Zoom, ZOOM!

[zibazinski]

SOME women. Not all. Contrary to common belief, not ALL women hated being a wife and mother. Of course it wasn't denigrated like it is today. Plenty of today's women are boozing and pill popping to deal with their lives.

[billisonboard]

May 22, 2015 8:39:29 GMT -5 oped said:

May 22, 2015 1:33:27 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

Perhaps some of the nostalgia is for a time when women weren't expected to work two jobs?

And could start drinking at noon... Rampant pill and alcohol use among women of that decade.

Musical Inter-lude  

[billisonboard]

 "the problem that has no name."

[Deleted]

May 22, 2015 8:50:33 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SOME women. Not all. Contrary to common belief, not ALL women hated being a wife and mother. Of course it wasn't denigrated like it is today. Plenty of today's women are boozing and pill popping to deal with their lives.

See, this is why I probably always get in trouble in the SAH debate. People assume that 'being a wife and mother' has to look like some 1950s stereotype....

I don't hate being a wife and mother. I LOVE being a wife and mother. I think I would have hated the normed expectations of being a wife and mother in the 1950s. 

And as far as 'natural' gender roles... gender is a social construct. There is no 'natural' gender roles.

[zibazinski]

That I agree with.

[happyhoix]

May 22, 2015 8:50:33 GMT -5 zibazinski said:

SOME women. Not all. Contrary to common belief, not ALL women hated being a wife and mother. Of course it wasn't denigrated like it is today. Plenty of today's women are boozing and pill popping to deal with their lives.

I don't think anyone believes all women hate being a SAHM.  I know a lot of SAHM's right now that love being SAHM's, and a lot of other women that wished they could afford to be SAHM's.

The thing was, back then, women didn't get to choose. My MIL had to quit her job when she got married, because her company didn't employ married women. She went to work for a company that hired married women, but fired them when they got pregnant. My FIL never made a huge salary, so it would have been useful if my MIL could have at least worked part time after she had kids, but that wasn't an option. Instead my FIL worked 3 jobs and DH almost never saw him - he missed almost all DH's little league games and school programs.

Families now have options. They work out what's best for them. So much better.

[zibazinski]

Lots of women worked even as wives and mothers. All 3 of my aunts did. Only 1 stopped working. She had to because that was the rule of that adoption agency. Then.