Opti
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Post by Opti on Apr 18, 2015 19:10:06 GMT -5
I wonder if he would have gone down in flames less if he hadn't used the phrase "celebrate your white heritage". That makes it more exclusionary than the typical Black History month posters I see at the library. They aren't directed to just blacks, they simply state things like February is Black history month.
I think he would have done better if he was actually sincere, to simply post some blurbs about white historic figures during March with no fanfare. I've seen many "Black History Month" messages with some sort of "celebrate your heritage" verbiage included on/in on them. Crap, I live in a vacuum again? I'll pay more attention next February. I mostly see posters in the library and don't remember such verbiage.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Apr 18, 2015 19:26:27 GMT -5
It's not just slavery. Somebody posted a link to an article in the last couple days that talked about a county in Georgia that just had their first integrated prom last year. In 2013 and prior they were still having segregated white and black proms. In two thousand fucking thirteen! Let that sink in for a minute. I was born three decades ago and thought segregation was something you only read about in history classes because it died before I was born. Way to keep it backwards Georgia! A suburban county of ours in Mississippi had its first mixed race senior prom just three years ago. 'It has always been that way to have separate proms' they said. Never underestimate the power of 'tradition'
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 18, 2015 19:29:00 GMT -5
You and others are repeat this like a mantra, but what is it based on?
History is history. When I learned about Watt inventing the steam engine, Edison inventing the incandescent lightbulb, Alexander the Great conquering the Medes, the last thing on my mind was a "white man" inventing the steam engine, a "white man" inventing the lightbulb, a "white man" conquering the Medes. The lessons were about what happened. How great inventions, rulers, empires, ideas, etc. shaped the history of western nations, not how "white men" shaped history.
Am I somehow more connected to all these historical events because I'm white? Should a black student of history despair that Eurasian ancestry was integral to accomplishing them?
You can't introduce "Black History Month" without reinforcing the message "blacks did these things; whites did everything else". Race should become relevant only when discussing the conflicts between races. Issues such as slavery in the US, the Underground Railroad, the US Civil War, the civil rights movement, etc. can't ignore race, for example. Insofar as I know, these topics feature prominently in US history classes for precisely this reason. Outside of race-on-race conflicts, what makes the nascent democracies of old Europe "white history", or the Industrial Revolution "white history", or the French rebellion against the aristocracy "white history" besides our forcing students to view it through that lens by segregating it from "black history"?
Why are the histories of all these things not simply "history"?
I say history is only "effectively White History" in your mind and the minds of those who choose to segregate history into 'black' and 'white'. If your goal is to inspire black kids to emulate great men/women, or to help them feel like a more integral part of society, you're not doing them any favours.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Apr 18, 2015 19:47:03 GMT -5
You and others are repeat this like a mantra, but what is it based on? History is history. When I learned about Watt inventing the steam engine, Edison inventing the incandescent lightbulb, Alexander the Great conquering the Medes, the last thing on my mind was a "white man" inventing the steam engine, a "white man" inventing the lightbulb, a "white man" conquering the Medes. The lessons were about what happened. How great inventions, rulers, empires, ideas, etc. shaped the history of western nations, not how "white men" shaped history. Am I somehow more connected to all these historical events because I'm white? Should a black student of history despair that Eurasian ancestry was integral to accomplishing them? You can't introduce "Black History Month" without reinforcing the message "blacks did these things; whites did everything else". Race should become relevant only when discussing the conflicts between races. Issues such as slavery in the US, the Underground Railroad, the US Civil War, the civil rights movement, etc. can't ignore race, for example. Insofar as I know, these topics feature prominently in US history classes for precisely this reason. Outside of race-on-race conflicts, what makes the nascent democracies of old Europe "white history", or the Industrial Revolution "white history", or the French rebellion against the aristocracy "white history" besides our forcing students to view it through that lens by segregating it from "black history"? Why are the histories of all these things not simply "history"? I say history is only "effectively White History" in your mind and the minds of those who choose to segregate history into 'black' and 'white'. If your goal is to inspire black kids to emulate great men/women, or to help them feel like a more integral part of society, you're not doing them any favours. So even one of the smartest posters doesn't get it.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 18, 2015 19:49:33 GMT -5
So even one of the smartest posters doesn't get it. Explain it to me, by all means. I've been very specific in my criticisms.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 19:51:08 GMT -5
Just out of a morbid sense of curiosity... I have to wonder: "Would it be such a bad thing if (for example) a black kid used Nikola Tesla as his role model / person to aspire to be like? Or Albert Einstein? Or Galileo Galilei?"
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Apr 18, 2015 20:01:30 GMT -5
So even one of the smartest posters doesn't get it. Explain it to me, by all means. I've been very specific in my criticisms. Your entire spiel is from the point of view of a white male. And on top of that not going to explain anything about it- you aren't stupid- you know exactly the point- and for some reason you have a problem with it- I would suggest an introspective assessment.
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EVT1
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Post by EVT1 on Apr 18, 2015 20:04:52 GMT -5
Just out of a morbid sense of curiosity... I have to wonder: "Would it be such a bad thing if (for example) a black kid used Nikola Tesla as his role model / person to aspire to be like? Or Albert Einstein? Or Galileo Galilei?" Not morbid or weird- Tyson was a fan of all of them. One of the smartest men out there- the religious nuts hate him.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 20:06:25 GMT -5
Just out of a morbid sense of curiosity... I have to wonder: "Would it be such a bad thing if (for example) a black kid used Nikola Tesla as his role model / person to aspire to be like? Or Albert Einstein? Or Galileo Galilei?" Not morbid or weird- Tyson was a fan of all of them. One of the smartest men out there- the religious nuts hate him. I know... that's why I used those specific examples! (I also wondered if anyone else knew)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 20:07:17 GMT -5
Folks you don't know that we are all slaves.
Look at the estate tax law that was passed, it helped 5500 families save 1/4 trillion dollars.
These are the wealthiest of the wealthy and it will help them have even more control of all of us, black, white, Hispanic, and every other race in this country.
It's all about money and power, none of us have a chance, keep this in mind, all this other stuff is just to keep us all in pour places. Are you suggesting we'll be doing a LOT of drinking?
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 18, 2015 20:14:59 GMT -5
Just out of a morbid sense of curiosity... I have to wonder: "Would it be such a bad thing if (for example) a black kid used Nikola Tesla as his role model / person to aspire to be like? Or Albert Einstein? Or Galileo Galilei?" Is there something wrong with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Frederick McKinley Jones, or Mark Dean as a role models for the youth of today?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 18, 2015 20:17:37 GMT -5
Of course it never occurred to you to think that. Nor did it to me. You and I are part of the dominant class. The point was more that because white society has been dominant in this country from the beginning, including the part of society that wrote and publicized the events in our history, there has never been a shortage of reporting on what white people have done, and race never needed to be mentioned. There has been a shortage of reporting on what other races have done. Whether it was intentional (as in, if it wasn't US, it can't be any good) or something more simple, it is still evident. And to be fair, I was referring to U.S. history, so the references to Alexander and Europe are not really relevant to this particular discussion.
I agree that race should not be relevant in most issues. Sadly, it still is for many people. And while it would be nice if there had never been any type of prejudice, and if many black kids had not grown up in a society that openly treated them and their culture as less, that's not where we are, or were. I see Black History Month as a pretty simple way to counter the negative messages many heard for a long time. It may not help much, but it can't really hurt.
As opposed to at least part of the media presenting it as "whites did everything?"
I've personally never paid much attention to it, but it's not as though there is an intent to illuminate EVERY accomplishment throughout history. Just some, to illustrate that, "Yes, our people did stuff too." Hard to see that as a negative message.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2015 20:31:08 GMT -5
Just out of a morbid sense of curiosity... I have to wonder: "Would it be such a bad thing if (for example) a black kid used Nikola Tesla as his role model / person to aspire to be like? Or Albert Einstein? Or Galileo Galilei?" Is there something wrong with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Frederick McKinley Jones, or Mark Dean as a role models for the youth of today? Never said there was. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of limiting to one race (black, in my question), during a "(insert race) History Month". The fact that I want to INCLUDE the three I mentioned is in no way to suggest that those you mentioned are unworthy, in any way, shape, or form (Well... except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet).
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 18, 2015 20:45:27 GMT -5
Is there something wrong with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Frederick McKinley Jones, or Mark Dean as a role models for the youth of today? Never said there was. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of limiting to one race (black, in my question), during a "(insert race) History Month". The fact that I want to INCLUDE the three I mentioned is in no way to suggest that those you mentioned are unworthy, in any way, shape, or form (Well... except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet). It doesn't mean their accomplishments to date should be dismissed either. The good thing about being alive is the two out of the three I mentioned can speak directly to and interest the youths of today. Not so much for Tesla, Einstein and especially Galileo Galilei!
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 18, 2015 20:46:23 GMT -5
Is there something wrong with Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Frederick McKinley Jones, or Mark Dean as a role models for the youth of today? Never said there was. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of limiting to one race (black, in my question), during a "(insert race) History Month". The fact that I want to INCLUDE the three I mentioned is in no way to suggest that those you mentioned are unworthy, in any way, shape, or form (Well... except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet). Just curious. Has there been a whitewash of historical accomplishments by persons of those nationalities? And while it may be perfectly appropriate to emphasize the accomplishments of those nationalities, is there the same "need" to combat prejudicial attitudes and misinformation?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Apr 18, 2015 21:07:05 GMT -5
Explain it to me, by all means. I've been very specific in my criticisms. Your entire spiel is from the point of view of a white male. And on top of that not going to explain anything about it- you aren't stupid- you know exactly the point- and for some reason you have a problem with it- I would suggest an introspective assessment. I'm humbled by your faith in my power of introspection.
Of course it never occurred to you to think that. Nor did it to me. You and I are part of the dominant class. The point was more that because white society has been dominant in this country from the beginning, including the part of society that wrote and publicized the events in our history, there has never been a shortage of reporting on what white people have done, and race never needed to be mentioned. There has been a shortage of reporting on what other races have done. Whether it was intentional (as in, if it wasn't US, it can't be any good) or something more simple, it is still evident. And to be fair, I was referring to U.S. history, so the references to Alexander and Europe are not really relevant to this particular discussion.
I agree that race should not be relevant in most issues. Sadly, it still is for many people. And while it would be nice if there had never been any type of prejudice, and if many black kids had not grown up in a society that openly treated them and their culture as less, that's not where we are, or were. I see Black History Month as a pretty simple way to counter the negative messages many heard for a long time. It may not help much, but it can't really hurt.
As opposed to at least part of the media presenting it as "whites did everything?"
I've personally never paid much attention to it, but it's not as though there is an intent to illuminate EVERY accomplishment throughout history. Just some, to illustrate that, "Yes, our people did stuff too." Hard to see that as a negative message.
Has there been a shortage of reporting on what other races have done? By what standard? Are we keeping tabs on which race did what? Does Dr. Albert Einstein score one point for the Whites and Dr. Charles Drew score one point for the Blacks? You say "sadly," race is relevant to these issues. You say racism abounds and some people openly treat blacks as inferiors. And your response: let's fix things with racism of the opposite polarity. We'll perpetuate the notion that blacks are different from whites, "black history" is separate from "white history", but we'll emphasize mainly the positive aspects of "black history" and what harm can that cause? What harm is there in showing up at US schools with a pool of black role models suitable for black kids? Heaven knows we don't want to combat the racists' view that the accomplishments of white men belong now and ever more to whites, the accomplishments of black men belong now and ever more to blacks. We don't want to tear down the notion that Neil Armstrong was every bit as suitable a role model for black kids as for white kids. What you're ostensibly arguing in this thread is that we should combat racism with tribalism. You're hoping that black kids take away the message "Yes, our people did stuff too." at the same time you're hoping they don't take away the messages "Here are some of 'your people' to emulate, because that Albert Einstein, he's 'our people'." and "It doesn't matter if you're black or white... *lol* Seriously though, kids, it does, and we're going to emphasize that fact at every opportunity.". I can't say with certainty what percentage will walk away with what message, but I can tell you with certainty it won't be 100% walking away with the former. Why not show us specific examples of where this is happening. And better yet, explain how the message "whites didn't quite do everything" is supposed to fix things, especially without driving home the point that "white history" belongs to white people?
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 18, 2015 21:31:53 GMT -5
Actually it would be, "No, we're not less than...." That is a clear distinction to me. Does it seem subtle to you?
I don't really see that as a likely takeaway. One percent? Less?
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weltschmerz
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Post by weltschmerz on Apr 18, 2015 22:23:24 GMT -5
True, I was never Personaly refused service. But what does that mean exactly? As I and others pointed out there is still discrimination and will always be because people fear what they cannot understand or because they are too narrow minded. I know that the "Black History Month" is nothing but encouragement to look deeper into the issues that blacks as a race went through but as oldcoyote pointed out that is in the past and there is nothing we can do about the past. What we can do is look at today and the future and educate ourselves and those around us about being fair and square and treat all equally no mater the color of their skin, creed or heritage. All are the same. When is that going to hapen? Probably never but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I grew up in a place where discrimination based on any thing was inexistent. Hard as it may be to believe it just simply didn't exist so I never understood why people discriminate against each other based on things like the color of skin or religious beliefs. You want a "Black History Month"? Fine, have two of them but for the love of God please stop Al Shapton and Jesse Jackson and the likes of and their stupid speeches. They do nothing but try to score political points by playing on the past. Love Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks and Nelson Mandela for their courage and accomplishments but playing over and over the fact that there was slavery and discrimination and so many other things makes me feel pity for the blacks as a race and I do not want that! They do have the same potential, the same opportunities so why play that card anymore? And the reference to the"Holocaust Museum" is nothing like a whole month. THAT is a museum and you go there if you want or you just don't go. Is not like every time you turn your TV or computer on all you see "holocaust museum, - learn about it, read about it, etc" that' s what it gets me: the constant nagging and reminding for that month. That and Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson's faces! I can't stand the two of them. and yeah, as a side question for those in the "know": who decided that the Jewish as a people are "the chosen people"? Just wondering! Perhaps THAT's why we need Black History Month. Those are the only ones you know.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 18, 2015 22:39:57 GMT -5
Pink Cashmere and TheHaitian, Please continue with your comments, I look forward to hearing more about your experiences.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 18, 2015 22:58:46 GMT -5
I think it is important to note that black history month started back in the 1920's as black history week. I think it is hard to look at it in today's light & say it's stupid, when back then things were very different. Blacks were still consider less than whites, segregation was alive and well. I think all the people mentioned earlier in this thread hadn't done anything to make them famous, if they had even been born yet.
I'm also guessing there was an effort, especially in the south, to gloss over the entire slavery thing. Either that or it was the other way & people still acted like abolishing slavery was a mistake. Think about the way people tend to gloss over segregation & act like we should all just forget about that. There are people still alive today that remember segregation, that remember the govt having to step in to force schools to allow black children to attend, that remember MLK being shot, that remember the KKK. Even if that isn't a big deal today & not like that today, you can't expect people that were alive during that time to think it is no big deal & we should just all get over the racism thing because that is the past. Heck, even 20 years ago many people didn't think they would see a black president in their lifetime.
So imagine your 60 years out of slavery, still be treated unequally, & people want you to pretend like the whole slavery thing was no big deal. So they made their own week, which eventually became a month. And, now we have a month dedicated to remember these things. Is that really so bad? Having that week/month probably helped to drive the end to segregation. Seems like a good thing IMO.
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 18, 2015 23:05:28 GMT -5
Pink Cashmere and TheHaitian, Please continue with your comments, I look forward to hearing more about your experiences. Well, when you've got posters like Robert flippantly using offensive words, you might drive a few posters off the thread. Now your left with a bunch of white people arguing amongst themselves as to whether black history month is warranted or worthwhile. Because it is so unfair that a race that was historically enslaved, treated as less than human, & even today fights against racism has a month dedicated to being proud of their heritage. Yeah, the blacks have been so lucky in this country & it just isn't fair to all the whites.
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OldCoyote
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Post by OldCoyote on Apr 18, 2015 23:20:26 GMT -5
Angel, I thought that this was very honest discussion, several had comments, I would like to see more comments from TheHaitian and Pink Cashmere.
No where did I see hate or much anger That is until I read your post.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Apr 18, 2015 23:23:09 GMT -5
Angel, I thought that this was very honest discussion, several had comments, I would like to see more comments from TheHaitian and Pink Cashmere. No where did I see hate or much anger That is until I read your post. You only see what you want to see. Robert not Bobby insulted Pink Cashmere and The Haitian. That is why they left. That you cannot see the insult does not mean they were not insulted..
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Angel!
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Post by Angel! on Apr 18, 2015 23:36:08 GMT -5
Angel, I thought that this was very honest discussion, several had comments, I would like to see more comments from TheHaitian and Pink Cashmere. No where did I see hate or much anger That is until I read your post. Reread post #42. Both Carl & Pink found it offensive. Both had enough self control to say nothing other than to point out that it was offensive. They didn't say anything directly, so I will. Robert used extremely offensive words, acknowledged that they could be offensive but said "so what". The "so what" is he is offending people, a lot. He is knowingly using racist terms, which actually makes it worse. If I'm wrong, then TheHaitian or @pinkcshmere, then feel free to correct me or PM me & I will change or remove my post. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth if I am totally off base. But, I found the post out of line, so I can only imagine how you might feel.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 0:12:34 GMT -5
Never said there was. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of limiting to one race (black, in my question), during a "(insert race) History Month". The fact that I want to INCLUDE the three I mentioned is in no way to suggest that those you mentioned are unworthy, in any way, shape, or form (Well... except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet). It doesn't mean their accomplishments to date should be dismissed either. The good thing about being alive is the two out of the three I mentioned can speak directly to and interest the youths of today. Not so much for Tesla, Einstein and especially Galileo Galilei! Where did I ever say they should be? Please feel free to point it out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 0:16:29 GMT -5
Never said there was. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of limiting to one race (black, in my question), during a "(insert race) History Month". The fact that I want to INCLUDE the three I mentioned is in no way to suggest that those you mentioned are unworthy, in any way, shape, or form (Well... except for the fact that Tyson and Dean aren't dead yet... so their "life's accomplishments" can't actually be tabulated yet). Just curious. Has there been a whitewash of historical accomplishments by persons of those nationalities? And while it may be perfectly appropriate to emphasize the accomplishments of those nationalities, is there the same "need" to combat prejudicial attitudes and misinformation? It's the exclusionary tactic employed by the pushers of "Black History Month". Look to THESE people as people to emulate... ignore anyone else. How about, instead people look for good people to emulate. Not "good Black people" or "good White people" or "good Asian people" or "good {any other skin color} people"... just plain old simple "good people" with no unnecessary limiter getting in the way of the "good" and the "people".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 0:20:18 GMT -5
Angel, I thought that this was very honest discussion, several had comments, I would like to see more comments from TheHaitian and Pink Cashmere. No where did I see hate or much anger That is until I read your post. Reread post #42. Both Carl & Pink found it offensive. Both had enough self control to say nothing other than to point out that it was offensive. They didn't say anything directly, so I will. Robert used extremely offensive words, acknowledged that they could be offensive but said "so what". The "so what" is he is offending people, a lot. He is knowingly using racist terms, which actually makes it worse. If I'm wrong, then TheHaitian or @pinkcshmere, then feel free to correct me or PM me & I will change or remove my post. I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth if I am totally off base. But, I found the post out of line, so I can only imagine how you might feel. Before I was Cosby'd I would have actually removed the post... I found it that bad... but I'm not a Mod anymore so, I'll just leave my comment as "I agree with everything you said (especially the bolded)".
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tallguy
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Post by tallguy on Apr 19, 2015 2:00:22 GMT -5
Just curious. Has there been a whitewash of historical accomplishments by persons of those nationalities? And while it may be perfectly appropriate to emphasize the accomplishments of those nationalities, is there the same "need" to combat prejudicial attitudes and misinformation? It's the exclusionary tactic employed by the pushers of "Black History Month". Look to THESE people as people to emulate... ignore anyone else. How about, instead people look for good people to emulate. Not "good Black people" or "good White people" or "good Asian people" or "good {any other skin color} people"... just plain old simple "good people" with no unnecessary limiter getting in the way of the "good" and the "people". That's not really the point though. As was stated, the beginnings were 90 years ago. While there still exists a societal undercurrent of black inferiority in some places today, and certainly did 40 years ago when it was expanded to a month, I can't even imagine what it was like 90 years ago. How many great examples were there for black people to look up to then? More to the point, how many were well-known enough to serve as examples of how to break through white dominance and still excel, particularly in areas other than entertainment and sports? And how badly were these examples needed for the average black citizen who may not have believed they themselves could excel within the societal limitations? Again, I have never really paid attention to it, since it is not really relevant to me, but I am not going to assume that it is not important to someone with a different frame of reference than mine. I can certainly see how it could be.
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marvholly
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Post by marvholly on Apr 19, 2015 5:33:01 GMT -5
i took a LOT of history courses in high school and college to 'balance' a reading course with my time intensive lab courses (B.S.).
As I recall EVERY month is White History month as mostly white people wrote the texts, taught the courses, kept the records (cencus, diaries, letters......). To have a black history month does seem right to me to highlight Black contributions (even if oral history) and somewhat balance the perspectives emphasized.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2015 5:48:52 GMT -5
It's the exclusionary tactic employed by the pushers of "Black History Month". Look to THESE people as people to emulate... ignore anyone else. How about, instead people look for good people to emulate. Not "good Black people" or "good White people" or "good Asian people" or "good {any other skin color} people"... just plain old simple "good people" with no unnecessary limiter getting in the way of the "good" and the "people". That's not really the point though. As was stated, the beginnings were 90 years ago. While there still exists a societal undercurrent of black inferiority in some places today, and certainly did 40 years ago when it was expanded to a month, I can't even imagine what it was like 90 years ago. How many great examples were there for black people to look up to then? More to the point, how many were well-known enough to serve as examples of how to break through white dominance and still excel, particularly in areas other than entertainment and sports? And how badly were these examples needed for the average black citizen who may not have believed they themselves could excel within the societal limitations? Again, I have never really paid attention to it, since it is not really relevant to me, but I am not going to assume that it is not important to someone with a different frame of reference than mine. I can certainly see how it could be. I disagree... it's exactly the point. Black people made important additions to history... so did Chinese people, and Korean people and Irish people... and yes... White people. Stop with the segregation. Make it simply "people". You know what the first step in the healing process is? STOP SCREWING WITH THE WOUND. That's all this "{insert race here} {insert cause/event here}" crap does... it keeps screwing with the wound.
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