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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 17:28:39 GMT -5
Not many. The attention given to false accusations is way out of proportion to the number of them that happen compared to overall instances of rape.
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 24, 2015 8:47:53 GMT -5
Not many. The attention given to false accusations is way out of proportion to the number of them that happen compared to overall instances of rape. Like anything else, it only takes one to spoil it for the legit claims. I mean just recall the discussions about welfare/food stamps on here.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 24, 2015 10:57:23 GMT -5
Not many. The attention given to false accusations is way out of proportion to the number of them that happen compared to overall instances of rape. How can we know the proportion of false allegations when we can't even agree on what is rape and what is not (i.e. drunken sex where neither side gives consent and/or was too blackout drunk to even know)? False allegations don't need to be intentionally false, they could easily be "I was unconscious" when the reality was "I was blacked out and can't remember, and so assume I was unconscious", because to the individual they have no real way of knowing. Particularly as we discuss the specific point of campus parties, nearly all of the reports we hear about are not "I was totally conscious and remember everything vividly". It's about what a drunk person recollects and often includes claims of unconsciousness...when they really have no way of knowing if they were unconscious or blacked out drunk. So again, I ask, how can we know the proportion of false accusers if we can't even define whether an accusation is false or not, even in situations where we simply create hypotheticals so all facts are known we seem unable to agree whether a crime occurred and if so who committed it (and typically these hypotheticals are exactly the situations people seem to feel is such a problem such as campus parties).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 14:03:16 GMT -5
Not many. The attention given to false accusations is way out of proportion to the number of them that happen compared to overall instances of rape. Like anything else, it only takes one to spoil it for the legit claims. I mean just recall the discussions about welfare/food stamps on here. No, not like anything else. People don't look at false accusations of theft and say "that ruins it for all the legit claims of theft". When it comes to rape and welfare people are looking for excuses to pile on.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 25, 2015 14:53:44 GMT -5
Like anything else, it only takes one to spoil it for the legit claims. I mean just recall the discussions about welfare/food stamps on here. No, not like anything else. People don't look at false accusations of theft and say "that ruins it for all the legit claims of theft". When it comes to rape and welfare people are looking for excuses to pile on. When was the last time you saw a theft allegation make national headlines only to find out that the accuser knowingly made a false accusation? Media attention is a pretty significant piece of the whole "one person ruins it for everyone". Similarly, the focus of the media attention is important. Theft is typically "this one person is bad and did something wrong". Rape allegations tends to largely portray "frats and other groups of college males are just waiting to rape unsuspecting women".
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2015 18:38:52 GMT -5
hoops902 Optimist has presented the statistics on this thread and people have rationalized them away. MJ and yourself easily say "one person ruins it for everyone" indicating an understanding that false accusations are not the norm, but you feel very comfortable saying one false accusation justifies the bias. It's a choice and too many people come down on the side of wanting to ignore rape or rationalize it away.
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quince
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Post by quince on Mar 25, 2015 19:00:19 GMT -5
I think a big difference between rape and other crimes is that VERY FEW PEOPLE volunteer to be beaten, house broken into, or things taken away, so when they have bruises and broken bones, things are missing, or something has been reduced to ashes, people are unlikely to say, are you sure you didn't ask for that? People DO shake their heads at people driving in the "wrong side of town", not locking their doors, wearing piles of jewelry in sketchy neighborhoods, leaving their laptops on the seat of their car, so it isn't like the behavior of the victim is only examined and criticized in cases of rape, but because people DO willingly have sex, if the rape in question doesn't also include obvious injuries or several witnesses to the struggle, it will definitely be called into question. Despite the picture people have in their head of rape, it is usually not the stranger in the bushes with the knife. Because it is not always obvious to everyone a rape victim is, indeed, a victim, the criticizing and examining of the choices of the victim, which is NORMAL, turns into questioning whether or not there was even a crime.
Because in many cases of rape all you have is the word of the accuser vs that of the accused, and no decisive physical evidence of anything except possibly that there was a sexual encounter, the fact that people do lie about being victimized does put things into doubt, and it's harder to investigate than when someone burns down their own building for insurance money.
This doesn't mean that sex without consent is OK, and I am a big fan of the model of explicit consent for casual encounters. I have a problem with the characterization of rape as something that is done by a man to a woman, and I have a problem with the idea that a drunk male is responsible, while a drunk female is a victim. Also, some people have encounters that others might classify as rape, but the "victim" does NOT, which makes it extra-special.
I don't think that broadening the definition of rape to include any sex had when both parties weren't 100% enthusiastic and under the influence of not a drop of any substance, ever, is a good idea- it dilutes the clear-cut WRONG of non-consensual sex. I have actually seen people say that threatening to leave someone if there is no sex in the relationship is like rape, since it's putting pressure on them to have sex.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 25, 2015 23:28:03 GMT -5
hoops902 Optimist has presented the statistics on this thread and people have rationalized them away. MJ and yourself easily say "one person ruins it for everyone" indicating an understanding that false accusations are not the norm, but you feel very comfortable saying one false accusation justifies the bias. It's a choice and too many people come down on the side of wanting to ignore rape or rationalize it away. You're confusing "justifies the bias" with "is reality". I don't believe people are rationalizing away any good statistic. Statistics are posted, and people examine the validity of them. If I post that 100% of the women in my survey have never even had someone attempt to rape them...then you find out that my survey is simply based on 5 women I asked...pointing out that my statistics, while true, are completely meaningless isn't "rationalizing them away", it's recognizing that statistics are only as good as far as they represent truth in the greater population. It would be like me saying "X number of women in a survey claim they've been raped, there were Y convictions for rape last year, therefore Y-X is the number of false rape allegations"...right? Of course not, because rape convictions aren't a valid stand-in for rapes which actually occurred, just like claims of rape aren't valid stand-ins for rapes which occurred. Frankly, I would posit that any "rape stats" which aren't a direct result of a conviction, and therefore a measure not of rape, but of rape convictions is likely going to be a meaningless statistic. Several of us have pointed the same thing out over and over again, which is that to this point, nobody has actually been able to actually agree when a rape has or hasn't occurred in many of the cases we're focusing on (campus parties, blackout drunks, etc). How good can a statistic be if you can't even define the event you're measuring? We aren't talking about some obscure tiny subset, we're talking about the vast majority of the events/rapes here that fall into this undefined measure. And specifically, we're talking about a vast majority of these events where the potential victim likely does not actually know if they've been raped, because we're talking about many/most of these situations involving drinking, passing out, or blacking out. Here's the typical example: Girl goes to a college house party. Girl drinks. Girl has no memory of the night after a certain point. Girl wakes up in a bed in the house partially clothed with clear indication there was sexual intercourse. Was she raped? How does this girl answer the person giving the survey when they ask her if she was raped? We're talking about situations where the vast majority of potential victims have no actual memory of the potential crime. I'm not all that concerned that rape victims who say "I was completely sober, someone held a knife to my throat and raped me" are simply making up a fictitious story. I'm specifically concerned about people who make assumptions that crimes were committed against them, then hold those assumptions out to be fact, expecting society to take their assumed victimization as a sign of criminal activity and then trying to explain away why the crime isn't reported or prosecuted or anything else...as if we are just to take their word that it happened completely absent of any facts.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 25, 2015 23:42:47 GMT -5
::I think a big difference between rape and other crimes is that VERY FEW PEOPLE volunteer to be beaten, house broken into, or things taken away, so when they have bruises and broken bones, things are missing, or something has been reduced to ashes, people are unlikely to say, are you sure you didn't ask for that? People DO shake their heads at people driving in the "wrong side of town", not locking their doors, wearing piles of jewelry in sketchy neighborhoods, leaving their laptops on the seat of their car, so it isn't like the behavior of the victim is only examined and criticized in cases of rape, but because people DO willingly have sex, if the rape in question doesn't also include obvious injuries or several witnesses to the struggle, it will definitely be called into question. Despite the picture people have in their head of rape, it is usually not the stranger in the bushes with the knife. Because it is not always obvious to everyone a rape victim is, indeed, a victim, the criticizing and examining of the choices of the victim, which is NORMAL, turns into questioning whether or not there was even a crime.::
The big difference between these other crimes and rape is that we report crime rates for other things based on actual reported crime rates...but in cases of rape, some people want to say "oh ignore actual reported crime, let's just do a survey and ask people".
::Because in many cases of rape all you have is the word of the accuser vs that of the accused, and no decisive physical evidence of anything except possibly that there was a sexual encounter, the fact that people do lie about being victimized does put things into doubt, and it's harder to investigate than when someone burns down their own building for insurance money.::
I'm willing to give people even more benefit of the doubt. I don't think many people "lie" intentionally about rape, I think there's just a presumption on most people's parts that when they get drunk and don't remember, they wake up thinking "oh, I passed out at the point I stopped remembering things". I think similarly when people get blackout drunk and had a smaller number of drinks than usual, they are quick to say "i was drugged" or something similar. It's based on perception, and people base that perception often on how they would act if sober. For example, if I get blackout drunk and wake up next to my wife after clearly having sex, my presumption is that I got drunk, must have gotten lucky, and just forgotten about it...I don't think she raped me, because having sex with my wife seems like a natural act. If I get blackout drunk and wake up to my face covered in sharpie drawings, my presumption is probably that people did that to me when I was passed out (and not say, that I wrote all over myself in the bathroom mirror while blackout drunk), because I just don't see myself doing that. I probably believe that story enough to call my friends assholes in the morning, even though I actually have no idea what truly happened.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 26, 2015 0:17:49 GMT -5
I just tweeted that list of tips to Jameis Winston.
Just trying to help.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 13:44:01 GMT -5
If that is your concern I would expect you to support sober consent guidelines.
Why do you think someone would assume they were raped or be anxious to claim they were raped? That assumption makes beyond no sense to me.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 26, 2015 14:03:07 GMT -5
If that is your concern I would expect you to support sober consent guidelines.
Why do you think someone would assume they were raped or be anxious to claim they were raped? That assumption makes beyond no sense to me. Because the vast majority of people associate no memory and waking up to "I was unconscious" rather than "I was awake and functioning and just have no memory then fell asleep". Explain what you mean by "sober consent guidelines". If it's what I think you mean by them, then the issue becomes what happens when both people are drunk? I don't think most of these party scenarios are one completely sober person and one completely drunk person. What do you do when 2 drunk people have sex? Who raped who when they're both drunk and so neither could give sober consent?
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MJ2.0
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Post by MJ2.0 on Mar 26, 2015 14:24:33 GMT -5
They're clearly too dangerous to have around the rest of us. We should charge them both with rape and lock them up for 5-20 years. Can't be having people getting drunk and having sex... it's one step away from utter chaos. Pretty soon you'll have people getting drunk and getting into fights, sharing secrets they wouldn't have sober, doing karoake, total chaos everywhere. I asked that earlier and got no answer. It's almost like if both people were drunk, the "aggressor" is assumed to be the man. Now what if it's two drunk women?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 14:26:48 GMT -5
Again, how often do you think someone engaging in drunk sex with another drunk person is making rape accusations? How many people do you think are saying yes in the moment then "changing their mind"?
Did you read about the SAE guys that set up an FB group and would post pics of their naked partners? The cute part is that the pics were taken while the partners were sleeping.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 14:31:54 GMT -5
And yet without any statistics at all to go with you are willing to judge all campus rape accusations as most likely false.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 26, 2015 14:45:04 GMT -5
... Why do you think someone would assume they were raped or be anxious to claim they were raped? That assumption makes beyond no sense to me. There is a great deal of material that talks about how people who are drunk are subjected to non-consensual sex (i.e. raped). I think it is quite possible for a person exposed to that material to wake up in the morning realizing that they have had a sexual experience but not having a clear memory of how exactly it transpired to assume they were raped. Alcohol has the effect on people of loosening their inhibitions. Once those inhibitions drop away, a person might act in a way that is counter to how they would act if they hadn't dropped away. Once the inhibition is back in place, one has to either accept that they did in fact have the desire to engage in that activity or that they were somehow forced to engage in it. Sometimes for some people, it is easier to not accept a part of themselves.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 14:50:31 GMT -5
... Why do you think someone would assume they were raped or be anxious to claim they were raped? That assumption makes beyond no sense to me. There is a great deal of material that talks about how people who are drunk are subjected to non-consensual sex (i.e. raped). I think it is quite possible for a person exposed to that material to wake up in the morning realizing that they have had a sexual experience but not having a clear memory of how exactly it transpired to assume they were raped. Alcohol has the effect on people of loosening their inhibitions. Once those inhibitions drop away, a person might act in a way that is counter to how they would act if they hadn't dropped away. Once the inhibition is back in place, one has to either accept that they did in fact have the desire to engage in that activity or that they were somehow forced to engage in it. Sometimes for some people, it is easier to not accept a part of themselves. This is all out of someone's imagination, there is no information gathered to say this is happening in any statistically significant way.
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 26, 2015 14:53:19 GMT -5
Again, how often do you think someone engaging in drunk sex with another drunk person is making rape accusations? How many people do you think are saying yes in the moment then "changing their mind"?
Did you read about the SAE guys that set up an FB group and would post pics of their naked partners? The cute part is that the pics were taken while the partners were sleeping. How often? In essentially every allegation of campus rape at some party both sides admit to having been drinking. I don't know if you don't understand the concept of what a blackout is, but it has nothing to do with "changing their mind", it has to do with having no memory of ever saying yes. To the person waking up half naked and realizing they were a part of sexual intercourse...what is the difference to them if they were unconscious when the intercourse occurred, if they were blackout drunk and forcibly raped, or if they were blackout drunk and initiated it? The answer is there is no difference to them. They don't have memory of it. Or are you just asserting that drunken campus rape accusations don't count or aren't a big problem and we should ignore that massive segment of rape claims?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 26, 2015 14:54:46 GMT -5
And yet without any statistics at all to go with you are willing to judge all campus rape accusations as most likely false. Nope, I conducted a survey, 100% of women have never been raped in a campus situation. Are you happy now that I've contrived a statistic as valid as yours?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 26, 2015 14:56:15 GMT -5
There is a great deal of material that talks about how people who are drunk are subjected to non-consensual sex (i.e. raped). I think it is quite possible for a person exposed to that material to wake up in the morning realizing that they have had a sexual experience but not having a clear memory of how exactly it transpired to assume they were raped. Alcohol has the effect on people of loosening their inhibitions. Once those inhibitions drop away, a person might act in a way that is counter to how they would act if they hadn't dropped away. Once the inhibition is back in place, one has to either accept that they did in fact have the desire to engage in that activity or that they were somehow forced to engage in it. Sometimes for some people, it is easier to not accept a part of themselves. This is all out of someone's imagination, there is no information gathered to say this is happening in any statistically significant way. See above. I gathered information. And it has all of the statistical significance of anything that's been posted in this thread.
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billisonboard
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Post by billisonboard on Mar 26, 2015 15:04:12 GMT -5
... This is all out of someone's imagination, there is no information gathered to say this is happening in any statistically significant way. You are claiming two contradictory things here. Is it actually "all out of someone's imagination" (does not exist in reality) or is "there no information gathered to say this is happening in any statistically significant way" (does exist in reality but currently available information does not support it happening often)?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 15:06:21 GMT -5
This is all out of someone's imagination, there is no information gathered to say this is happening in any statistically significant way. See above. I gathered information. And it has all of the statistical significance of anything that's been posted in this thread. No it does not. You have dismissed studies with absolutely no justification other than you don't like the results. You do not know what questions were asked, what the definition of rape was etc. You are making assumptions to justify your position with absolutely nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2015 15:50:29 GMT -5
Watching Modern Family... So, since Halie gave Alex alcohol to loosen her up, if she would have gone to the van with that guy... Would he have raped her? Or would it technically have been Halie?
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hoops902
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Post by hoops902 on Mar 26, 2015 16:12:45 GMT -5
See above. I gathered information. And it has all of the statistical significance of anything that's been posted in this thread. No it does not. You have dismissed studies with absolutely no justification other than you don't like the results. You do not know what questions were asked, what the definition of rape was etc. You are making assumptions to justify your position with absolutely nothing. I didn't dismiss anything. I did my own research and reported my findings. You're just dismissing my study with absolutely no justification other than you don't like the results!
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