Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Mar 13, 2015 9:31:32 GMT -5
Many young people now don't seem to be getting careers but saying at minimum wage, they won't make much for retirement because they think they can't and don't even try. They wait all year for a tax refund and spend it on something special or pay down debt never making progress. The thing is you don't need to put away a set percentage or set amount to get to your million. Start a career, buy a house that isn't too high priced and stay out of consumer debt and it almost does it on auto pilot. If your career progresses and you house payment is fixed you start to get ahead slowly. I bought a house in 1985 that cost 422 a month and was saving 2K a year starting in 1984. It took a decade to save 20K. I knuckled down and paid down the mortgage but if I hadn't and hadn't sold it I would only have 8 more mortgage payments. The thing is 422 was a lot of money then for me now it would be less than utilities. But I got a bigger house, bought cars and boats and had a roommate 28 years, I was also very frugal in many ways shopping sales and cutting corners. It took me from 1985 to 2000 to save 100K but things got worse then better with work and between 2003-2014 I saved about 450K just in a 401K. I inherited 170K but hit a million in taxable investments in under 30 years, I never made a large fortune but had decent jobs most of the time. If I can do it as a single women a couple could easily do it. But you didn't have any children. That makes a big difference. I worked full time for many years, then gave up on it for a while. It was my choice to quit working. I could have continued and saved more, but didn't want to. There are a lot more choices you have to make, some difficult, some easy, when you add little ones to the mix. Some are fortunate and have supportive families, not just financially, others are not. Some were/are able to work for a business offering pensions Others may have generous 401k plans or none at all. Some have lousy health and/or insurance coverage. Lots of factors affect an individual's ability to save and/or get ahead in life. Some factors are chosen, others are not. But most of us have choices, opportunities and set backs. Every one of us. If you have followed cronewitch 's story you know she was dirt poor and had some serious setbacks. She dug herself out and did well for herself and by herself.
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8 Bit WWBG
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Post by 8 Bit WWBG on Mar 13, 2015 14:42:16 GMT -5
I think anyone can achieve a "good" retirement, but I believe it will get harder and harder to achieve a "great" retirement.
I think there is no denying that growth in living costs have outpaced growth in wages for a long time, and that in and of itself can have a profound effect on one's ability to save/invest. These major success stories get a lot of publicity, and some people see the accomplishments as impossible for them. The point about how even if you fall short, its better to have saved SOMETHING than to have nothing from not trying at all is important to weigh in.
I also think that when we read these success stories, we are seeing it in hindsight from the finish line. They made good moves, and it is up to interpretation as how pivotal the timing in which they made them paid off. When they hit different points in their lives, did the market conditions boost or hinder the potential results of the moves they made?
Its not that I don't think these challenges can be overcome, it just circles back to my original statement. Two people could make the same "right choices", but the conditions at the time could greatly affect where they end up.
A 2010 graduate, even if they got a STEM degree from a school funded entirely by scholarships, is starting off in market conditions that see his/her starting salary being severely depressed. What will the cumulative effect of that be in 30 years? That same graduate from just 5 years prior might have done a heck of a lot better. And a graduate from today (5 years later)... how does he/she register?
I am very nervous about what my retirement will buy me. Even if I max for the next 30 years and get my magical 11% return and actually have the projected $5M. Will I still just be "ok"?
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Mar 13, 2015 15:02:41 GMT -5
I have no idea what it will be like 30 yrs from now but am I the only person who knows people who were told years ago that they needed a million in retirement and only have half that and are doing really well? Most all of my older family members have between 300K - 500K saved and are doing quite well. From what I am hearing they retired 10 yrs ago and have the same amount of money now that they had then. This is, of course, due to the lack of inflation the last several years and the fact that their money has continued to grow. Some do have paid off homes, some moved to LCOL areas, etc. I mean, I know YM thinks everyone needs MILLIONS to have a decent retirement but not always. There are lots of factors that play into that and while we are all sitting here thinking we are going to need 3-5million to retire we may end up needing half that. Yeah, yeah, I know... better to have too much money than not enough money but I am just sayin'
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Mar 13, 2015 15:06:44 GMT -5
Many young people now don't seem to be getting careers but saying at minimum wage, they won't make much for retirement because they think they can't and don't even try. They wait all year for a tax refund and spend it on something special or pay down debt never making progress. The thing is you don't need to put away a set percentage or set amount to get to your million. Start a career, buy a house that isn't too high priced and stay out of consumer debt and it almost does it on auto pilot. If your career progresses and you house payment is fixed you start to get ahead slowly. I bought a house in 1985 that cost 422 a month and was saving 2K a year starting in 1984. It took a decade to save 20K. I knuckled down and paid down the mortgage but if I hadn't and hadn't sold it I would only have 8 more mortgage payments. The thing is 422 was a lot of money then for me now it would be less than utilities. But I got a bigger house, bought cars and boats and had a roommate 28 years, I was also very frugal in many ways shopping sales and cutting corners. It took me from 1985 to 2000 to save 100K but things got worse then better with work and between 2003-2014 I saved about 450K just in a 401K. I inherited 170K but hit a million in taxable investments in under 30 years, I never made a large fortune but had decent jobs most of the time. If I can do it as a single women a couple could easily do it. But you didn't have any children. That makes a big difference. I worked full time for many years, then gave up on it for a while. It was my choice to quit working. I could have continued and saved more, but didn't want to. There are a lot more choices you have to make, some difficult, some easy, when you add little ones to the mix. Some are fortunate and have supportive families, not just financially, others are not. Some were/are able to work for a business offering pensions Others may have generous 401k plans or none at all. Some have lousy health and/or insurance coverage. Lots of factors affect an individual's ability to save and/or get ahead in life. Some factors are chosen, others are not. If I ever do make it to a million dollars (or the equivalent of a comfortable retirement), I feel like one of the main advantages I will have had will be that I never wanted children. I suppose I could have pulled that off if it had been a priority, but I would have had to make a lot of really difficult choices. It almost feels like a blessing to have been born without the mom gene.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 13, 2015 15:10:03 GMT -5
I have no idea what it will be like 30 yrs from now but am I the only person who knows people who were told years ago that they needed a million in retirement and only have half that and are doing really well? Most all of my older family members have between 300K - 500K saved and are doing quite well. From what I am hearing they retired 10 yrs ago and have the same amount of money now that they had then. This is, of course, is due to the lack of inflation the last several years and the fact that their money has continued to grow. Some do have paid off homes, some moved to LCOL areas, etc. I mean, I know YM thinks everyone needs MILLIONS to have a decent retirement but not always. There are lots of factors that play into that and while we are all sitting here thinking we are going to need 3-5million to retire we may end up needing half that. Yeah, yeah, I know... better to have too much money than not enough money but I am just sayin' I keep seeing people saying "a million won't be enough". Enough for what? I have a hard time believing that if you have a million saved for retirement 20-30 years from now, you won't be able to at least feed yourself and keep a roof over your head. I think the goal of most people in retirement is to live the same lifestyle they're living now, but without having to work every day. Those who want to live better than their current lifestyle, however, may need to work to save $5 million for retirement.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 15:11:13 GMT -5
But you didn't have any children. That makes a big difference. I worked full time for many years, then gave up on it for a while. It was my choice to quit working. I could have continued and saved more, but didn't want to. There are a lot more choices you have to make, some difficult, some easy, when you add little ones to the mix. Some are fortunate and have supportive families, not just financially, others are not. Some were/are able to work for a business offering pensions Others may have generous 401k plans or none at all. Some have lousy health and/or insurance coverage. Lots of factors affect an individual's ability to save and/or get ahead in life. Some factors are chosen, others are not. If I ever do make it to a million dollars (or the equivalent of a comfortable retirement), I feel like one of the main advantages I will have had will be that I never wanted children. I suppose I could have pulled that off if it had been a priority, but I would have had to make a lot of really difficult choices. It almost feels like a blessing to have been born without the mom gene. I don't know. I look at some of the childfree and they're spending just as much or more, just not on kids.
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Mar 13, 2015 15:18:35 GMT -5
If I ever do make it to a million dollars (or the equivalent of a comfortable retirement), I feel like one of the main advantages I will have had will be that I never wanted children. I suppose I could have pulled that off if it had been a priority, but I would have had to make a lot of really difficult choices. It almost feels like a blessing to have been born without the mom gene. I don't know. I look at some of the childfree and they're spending just as much or more, just not on kids. I do overspend on my cats, but at least they don't have to go to college .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 15:27:34 GMT -5
I don't know. I look at some of the childfree and they're spending just as much or more, just not on kids. I do overspend on my cats, but at least they don't have to go to college . True (although you don't HAVE to pay for college, my parents never did). Just saying often the spending just goes elsewhere. It seems like everyone I know with kids wonders what the hell they did with all their money before the kids came along.
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movingforward
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Post by movingforward on Mar 13, 2015 15:30:38 GMT -5
I do overspend on my cats, but at least they don't have to go to college . True (although you don't HAVE to pay for college, my parents never did). Just saying often the spending just goes elsewhere. It seems like everyone I know with kids wonders what the hell they did with all their money before the kids came along. Went on international vacations and attended live theatre? - Okay, that's what I do . I think you have a good point that the money probably does go elsewhere a lot of the time.
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 13, 2015 15:41:07 GMT -5
I think this is the nature of the human condition. Childfree couples don't just stare at the walls, they engage in multiple hobbies/activities that fill their time and cost big bucks.
It comes from the old 4% rule, if you have no other income, you'll need a million to provide $40,000/yr to live on. But most retirees also have a SS check (or two of them), a paid-for house - those two incomes probably cut their needs by $30,000/yr.
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Post by mojothehelpermonkey on Mar 13, 2015 15:43:54 GMT -5
I do overspend on my cats, but at least they don't have to go to college . True (although you don't HAVE to pay for college, my parents never did). Just saying often the spending just goes elsewhere. It seems like everyone I know with kids wonders what the hell they did with all their money before the kids came along. That's true too! I also won't have the option of showing up on my child's doorstep if my retirement savings do run out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 15:50:11 GMT -5
True (although you don't HAVE to pay for college, my parents never did). Just saying often the spending just goes elsewhere. It seems like everyone I know with kids wonders what the hell they did with all their money before the kids came along. That's true too! I also won't have the option of showing up on my child's doorstep if my retirement savings do run out. Eh...I think my kids are plotting to put me in a home once I turn 60.
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beergut
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Post by beergut on Mar 13, 2015 18:17:22 GMT -5
That's true too! I also won't have the option of showing up on my child's doorstep if my retirement savings do run out. Eh...I think my kids are plotting to put me in a home once I turn 60. I threatened my parents with this throughout my childhood. Then I visited a nursing home at ~14. I came home and told my parents I would never put them in one of those places. I now threaten my GF that if something happens to my father, my mother is moving in with us. (my GF adores my parents, though, so it isn't much of a threat).
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Opti
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Post by Opti on Mar 13, 2015 19:18:44 GMT -5
SDG, you need to revisit your math. Your starting numbers are high.
www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html
It appears the average wage in 2013 was around $43K. The estimated median wage just over $28K.
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Baby Fawkes
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Post by Baby Fawkes on Mar 13, 2015 20:26:46 GMT -5
SDG, you need to revisit your math. Your starting numbers are high.
www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/central.html
It appears the average wage in 2013 was around $43K. The estimated median wage just over $28K. Yeah, I thought that the $50K number was average household income, rather than individual wage. Either way though, I agree with the sentiment of what Sum Dum Gai said
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2015 21:08:31 GMT -5
Given the wide divide on this topic, median is auch better metric than mean...
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svwashout
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Post by svwashout on Mar 14, 2015 23:05:57 GMT -5
Don't know about the dream but for more and more Americans it seems to be the reality: www.cnbc.com/id/100552951There was a dip in 2008 that took a few years to recover from but the all time high should be now. I'd agree hard work and thrift alone don't likely get you there, also important are a reasonably high income over a long period of time and of course no small measure of luck. Personally I think the average guy has a chance, but it's unrealistic to believe that doing exactly what everyone else is doing will put him in the top few percent. One part that's true based on what I see-- it's rare to live next door to a millionaire if you are not also a millionaire. Income and age cohorts tend to live in clusters around here. As for role models, if you aspire to be one of these, I think the combination of hard work and rigorously virtuous thrift is the most likely path for average people to reach that goal.
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cronewitch
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Post by cronewitch on Mar 14, 2015 23:21:56 GMT -5
Don't know about the dream but for more and more Americans it seems to be the reality: www.cnbc.com/id/100552951There was a dip in 2008 that took a few years to recover from but the all time high should be now. I'd agree hard work and thrift alone don't likely get you there, also important are a reasonably high income over a long period of time and of course no small measure of luck. Personally I think the average guy has a chance, but it's unrealistic to believe that doing exactly what everyone else is doing will put him in the top few percent. One part that's true based on what I see-- it's rare to live next door to a millionaire if you are not also a millionaire. Income and age cohorts tend to live in clusters around here. As for role models, if you aspire to be one of these, I think the combination of hard work and rigorously virtuous thrift is the most likely path for average people to reach that goal. Many of us millionaires do live in poor neighborhoods that is what the millionaire next door is all about. Take my neighborhood the homes were built in the 40s and 50s many of the people who built them are still here or their kids are. My neighbor across the street was here for decades and told me she was low income elderly yet bought a condo down town without selling her house, she now sold it to her son. Another told me they had theirs built and sold the lot behind it in the 50s to get the money to build. Another had her MIL down the road walking distance and when she died they sold hers divided into 4 lots and build a home on the other part selling the home they always had. So we may have 3-4 millionaires on this corner in a poor neighborhood filled with renters and immigrants but we don't have fancy homes or fancy cars. Some have motor homes or second homes but we don't look rich and didn't pay much for our homes. I have been here since 1985 but am still new compared to the others and they are moving now. When I move the home will cost about 250K-300K but I may well be one of the few who are wealthy.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 10:38:39 GMT -5
I should be able to make millionaire status on a low income, hoping to hit the 500K NW mark this year, but it's meant being pretty frugal...I don't know...the house was probably more of a hindrance to saving/investing than anything.
I envy those with two earners/savers going into retirement, and the "two can live as cheap as one" deal.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Mar 15, 2015 10:54:10 GMT -5
We would not have made it without hubby making a lot of money, it enabled us to buy rentals, pay for them, then replace the money a couple times so when we sold them we banked a nice amount. We were able to buy our house and mostly pay for it from my moms little farm. Then the sale of our home in Houston went in the bank. We were way late getting going, I think we either had $200k or $400k when he started working overseas, would have to look and see. By now I don't know what we would have had but sure not what we do. I think for many people here that have stayed many inherited homes or land and money from parents so gave them a big push up the scale.
For us his higher income allowed us to save, have what we want, and enjoy ourselves too. It would have been nearly impossible to have reached this level without his income.
I think it will be way harder for younger people, with the price of homes, parents living longer and eating up their savings, and not having investments that give safe returns on savings. Also high daycare and high student loan repayments. They will really have to lower their standard of living to do it. Some will, some won't. Pat,
Your story is interesting because you had to drop out of the (paid) workforce fairly early to take care of your mom and your daughter, both of which I suspect not only took you away from wages but probably cost you and your husband out of pocket money. So in essence your husband's "high wage" only partially made up for your lost wages.
I also doubt most young people will work as hard as you and your husband do.
If it's not already apparent, while I may disagree with your political view and investment philosophy I greatly admire your persistence and hard work.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 15, 2015 11:00:05 GMT -5
I also doubt most young people will work as hard as you and your husband do As a young person I take offense to that comment As for us we are saving ~25% of our gross towards retirement. All calculations points towards the fact we will be comfortable in retirement, time will tell. And as for the death of the millionaire next door, I doubt it... But that is just me and what I see happening aroun me.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 15, 2015 11:06:14 GMT -5
Don't know about the dream but for more and more Americans it seems to be the reality: www.cnbc.com/id/100552951There was a dip in 2008 that took a few years to recover from but the all time high should be now. I'd agree hard work and thrift alone don't likely get you there, also important are a reasonably high income over a long period of time and of course no small measure of luck. Personally I think the average guy has a chance, but it's unrealistic to believe that doing exactly what everyone else is doing will put him in the top few percent. One part that's true based on what I see-- it's rare to live next door to a millionaire if you are not also a millionaire. Income and age cohorts tend to live in clusters around here.As for role models, if you aspire to be one of these, I think the combination of hard work and rigorously virtuous thrift is the most likely path for average people to reach that goal. Sort of...in most neighborhoods you will probably find a wide range of savings, even if the lifestyle is very similar. But, you don't really know because it is easy to see someone's car, but a rarity to see their net worth statement. We are (technically) millionaires, and we sure are not the only ones in the neighborhood that are, but 2 doors down, they confessed they have maxed out their borrowing all together - took all the equity out of their house, maxed out their credit cards and drained all of their accounts. Given their age, I doubt they will ever be millionaires. From the outside, our houses look pretty much the same. The average age of our cars is a few years newer, but before I bought my new car, we probably had older cars. If what my husband says is true - you really don't know. The guy next door that has the same house, same car and same vacations might be rolling in dough, or might have their case in front of a bankruptcy judge. They all look the same.
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thyme4change
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Post by thyme4change on Mar 15, 2015 11:08:11 GMT -5
I also doubt most young people will work as hard as you and your husband do As a young person I take offense to that comment As for us we are saving ~25% of our gross towards retirement. All calculations points towards the fact we will be comfortable in retirement, time will tell. And as for the death of the millionaire next door, I doubt it... But that is just me and what I see happening aroun me. Some will - some won't. Young people aren't as different from previous generations as we think they are. They have some really hard working people, and some lazy people. There has always been losers and winners. And that isn't going to stop any time soon.
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TheHaitian
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Post by TheHaitian on Mar 15, 2015 11:14:45 GMT -5
As a young person I take offense to that comment As for us we are saving ~25% of our gross towards retirement. All calculations points towards the fact we will be comfortable in retirement, time will tell. And as for the death of the millionaire next door, I doubt it... But that is just me and what I see happening aroun me. Some will - some won't. Young people aren't as different from previous generations as we think they are. They have some really hard working people, and some lazy people. There has always been losers and winners. And that isn't going to stop any time soon. I totally agree with that ...
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Mar 15, 2015 12:11:25 GMT -5
I also doubt most young people will work as hard as you and your husband do As a young person I take offense to that comment As for us we are saving ~25% of our gross towards retirement. All calculations points towards the fact we will be comfortable in retirement, time will tell. And as for the death of the millionaire next door, I doubt it... But that is just me and what I see happening aroun me. I'm having a hard time imagining you and Mrs. C fixing up travel trailers and canning fruits and vegetables.
Prove me wrong!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 17:47:15 GMT -5
As a young person I take offense to that comment As for us we are saving ~25% of our gross towards retirement. All calculations points towards the fact we will be comfortable in retirement, time will tell. And as for the death of the millionaire next door, I doubt it... But that is just me and what I see happening aroun me. I'm having a hard time imagining you and Mrs. C fixing up travel trailers and canning fruits and vegetables.
Prove me wrong!
Haha, does it count that I do all our house maintenance/repairs and am pretty avid about fermenting vegetables? Our last trip north I was on the roof ridge installing new vent hardware. I'm just rolling up on 29 years old, about the C's ages For the millionaire dream, I don't think it's dead, and in fact there's a lot of widely available resources and knowledge bases to ice pick forward with even in rough situations. There are also a heck of a lot if pit traps though, if someone doesn't hit the ground running. It seems like there's high interest credit available for almost everything and for anyone with a pulse. Credit can be extremely useful (voucher of responsibility over time, rewards, ease of tracking and added security, open opportunities) or it can seriously grind a person to a pulp, because the power of compound interest can hammer smash a person who messes it up. Retirement and 401k plans can be a real toss up. I nearly spit water on my screen when I saw DH's company plan. Annual fees ranged from 1.69% at the lowest, to 2.84% at the highest. No match. The pay at his company is great, the benefits are pretty sucky. So I just do IRAs and taxable instead. But retirement assessment like that takes another body of knowledge. Current retirement options can be great with all the added flexibility, or really hamstring someone over time if they don't know what they're doing and go with whatever someone says, or if they fail to start from uncertainty until it's the 11th hour. Add in the options/knowledge needed for insurance, for job transitions and improvement since it's pretty rare someone stays at one company for decades, etc... Lots of opportunity to ice pick higher, lots of potentials for impact to the jaw. I'd say having curiosity and good risk assessment seems like the most important things in today's market, on average. On spending... I honestly enjoy collecting and growing money. I feel I am using it by doing so. Collecting lets me dream. I like dreams more than the having usually, it's a hassle to maintain and care for fancy stuff. Collecting/growing money also adds security, another thing I prize. I don't feel deprived by not having an uber mansion or fancy car. I have everything I need to be happy: flexibility, a sweet DH and a pet, fun to me hobbies, etc. If I have a happy life and my stashes add to that, why deplete them?
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phil5185
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Post by phil5185 on Mar 15, 2015 18:29:47 GMT -5
But, as I often say on YM, it ain't the latte factor - canning fruit, selling apps, washing baggies, is not the way to a million.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2015 18:45:57 GMT -5
But, as I often say on YM, it ain't the latte factor - canning fruit, selling apps, washing baggies, is not the way to a million. It can be if that's what frees up the $300/month to invest.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Mar 15, 2015 20:08:40 GMT -5
But, as I often say on YM, it ain't the latte factor - canning fruit, selling apps, washing baggies, is not the way to a million. It can be if that's what frees up the $300/month to invest. Agreed. If you have to drop out of the "normal" workforce you do what you have to save for retirement.
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Bonny
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Post by Bonny on Mar 15, 2015 20:12:13 GMT -5
But, as I often say on YM, it ain't the latte factor - canning fruit, selling apps, washing baggies, is not the way to a million. I wash baggies!
I do know what you mean but I do think a sensitivity to how much you consume and what that costs is a factor to living below your means. As @copperpouches points out, it's so easy to get high interest credit to get whatever new toy hits the market.
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