Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 18, 2015 15:04:23 GMT -5
One of the prevailing conspiracy theories of our era is that of "chemtrails"--the notion that governments (or their affiliates) are lacing the atmosphere with chemical agents. As is the norm for such things, "chemtrails" isn't so much a theory as it is dozens of mutually-incompatible competing theories, all stemming from a common set of observations. For this reason, a run-of-the-mill Internet search turns up a predictable mash-up of piecemeal theories and biting skepticism. A baseline summary of the major observations, their putative explanations, and the skeptics' rebuttals, is as follows: - thick white trails in criss-crossing hash-shaped patterns have been photographed by countless observers; skeptics claim these are ordinary aircraft contrails (a well-documented high-altitude phenomenon) and the hash pattern is due to multiple aircraft traveling in different directions; theorists claim that
- the "hashing" is too regular to be explained this way, and is observed in locations where continental air traffic maps do not register crosswise air traffic
- chemtrails have visibly different characteristics from contrails, tending to be more diffuse and marbled
- aircraft trailing chemicals typically fly at lower (or much lower) altitudes than standard commercial aircraft
- chemtrails sometimes have abrupt, distinctive "gaps" in them, inconsistent with the continuous output of a jet engine
- "chemical jelly" (a clear gelatinous residue) putatively composite of silicon, boron, and various other compounds is sometimes observed in the vicinity of chemtrails; some theorists claim these are directly related to chemtrails; skeptics claim that the jelly is a hoax, unrelated to chemtrails, anomalous, or otherwise reasonably explainable without chemtrail theories
- different theorists offer miscellaneous other observations, such as strong correlations between chemtrail activity and weather phenomena, strong correlations between chemtrail activity and health phenomena, etc.; skeptics claim these observations are apophenia or paranoia, or that they otherwise lack scientific rigour
Of the myriad theories out there as to why chemical agents would be sprayed into the atmosphere, those suggesting geoengineering are, relatively speaking, and in my opinion, the most credible. For one thing, geoengineering science and geoengineering initiatives are known to exist, and geoengineering on small-to-intermediate scales is well-documented. For another thing, atmosphere seeding is the best (only?) known means of accomplishing certain kinds of geoengineering. Other chemtrail theories (suggesting toxic agents, viral agents, etc.) run into the issue that considerably more effective means exist to accomplish the suggested goal. Because the theories are so diverse, skeptics have accordingly taken a shotgun approach to rebutting them. The Wikipedia article is a good example of this, first broadly characterizing the set of all chemtrail theories, then devoting anything from a sentence to a few paragraphs apiece shooting down specific contentions. For this reason, the skeptics' analysis is often just as addled and incoherent as the corpus of material it targets. An analogy would be a new poster coming onto YM and attempting to critique everyone's money advice simultaneously, first by aggregating hundreds of disparate viewpoints into a unified "theory", prizing out the most absurd/contentious aspects, and then devoting a small bit of time to critiquing each one. Much of the skepticism also suffers from the malice, intellectual arrogance, and res ipsa loquitur attitude of the skeptics themselves, which is unfortunately a common counterpart to the ignorance and narrow-mindedness of the theorists. Typical criticisms of chemtrail theories can be broadly categorized as: - chemtrail theorists lack compelling/conclusive evidence to support their theories; they fail to provide a testable hypothesis
- a conspiracy of the magnitude required to conceal governmental or para-governmental operations on the scale suggested by the theorists is extremely unlikely
- many critical "proofs" offered by chemtrail theorists can be plainly debunked or reasonably explained with simpler theories
Unfortunately, between the zeal of the theorists and the self-importance of the skeptics, there's really no such thing as a rational, well-meaning dialog on the subject of chemtrails online. I was hoping we might try for one here. What I am looking for is a respectful discussion of the topic of chemtrails (as they pertain to geoengineering) in the Socratic style. This means participants must be willing to explain and elaborate on their observations, ask relevant questions, treat the subject matter as serious enough to warrant debate, and generally exhibit an inordinate degree of open-mindedness toward dissenting positions. Socratic discussions are inquisitive rather than expositive in nature. If you aren't capable of complying with these guidelines, do not join the discussion. This is not a thread for useless rhetoric about "sheeple", "tin foil", or posters bringing in contentions without a good faith willingness to defend them. I reserve the right to exile any offending posts to a special "I cannot follow the rules." thread I will create for the purpose. Having said this, the kinds of things I'm looking for are: - Has anyone here seen strange contrails matching the description given above (hash-shaped, low-altitude, "different" from regular contrails)?
- Does anyone here subscribe to a chemtrail theory? Endorse one? If so, which one?
- Does anyone here have any specific knowledge about chemtrails? Have you exhaustively studied one or both sides of the argument?
- Are there any sites you know of where the issue of chemtrails has been objectively debated, with a meaningful defense of both sides? Are there derision- and sarcasm-free online resources you would recommend in looking into the issue?
- Have you ever observed anything unusual that piqued your interest in chemtrails?
- Do you believe the theories regarding chemtrails are provable? What standard of proof would be needed to confirm the existence of geoengineering in your mind?
Discussion isn't limited to just the above topics, of course. These are just suggestions to get the ball rolling. Depending on how the discussion goes, I'll try to balance out the prevailing consensus by taking up the counterargument. Officially I have no stance on whether governments are actually seeding the atmosphere with chemicals. If they are, I certainly don't know the purpose or extent of it. My hope is that we can all learn a bit more about the various theories and their facets, do a bit of open-minded thinking, and partake in a respectful discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2015 15:20:18 GMT -5
I've heard of Western countries using AIDS to kill off Africans, the CIA killed John Kennedy, all the stuff around Roswell aliens, the generalized aliens gave us technology stuff, and the whole thing about Free Masons running the world. Gotta say though, never heard of chemtrails.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jan 18, 2015 15:33:01 GMT -5
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The Home 6
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Post by The Home 6 on Jan 18, 2015 15:36:08 GMT -5
I will say only that THIS is why spelling is important. As soon as 'contrails' was misspelled into 'chemtrails', OMG the government is trying to kill us/brainwash us/vaccinate us from the air.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 18, 2015 15:41:00 GMT -5
Ooookay. I realize the OP is long. I realize there's roughly two pages of writing there. Reading it--especially the paragraph starting with "What I am looking for ..."--is a must-do for this particular thread.
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Post by Jaguar on Jan 18, 2015 15:46:52 GMT -5
Ooookay. I realize the OP is long. I realize there's roughly two pages of writing there. Reading it--especially the paragraph starting with "What I am looking for ..."--is a must-do for this particular thread. Pffft like get real, for cheez whiz sakes.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 18, 2015 15:48:43 GMT -5
Years ago, an older woman told me the jetstreams coming out of the engines of commercial passenger jets were causing the weather to change.
Other than the above, I've got nothing. I'm not big on conspiracies and give them little credence.
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Post by ՏՇԾԵԵʅՏɧ_LԹՏՏʅҼ on Jan 18, 2015 15:52:40 GMT -5
To answer some of the questions asked:
- No, I haven't seen oddly shaped/strange or low altitude contrails
- No, I've never ascribed to or endorsed a chemtrail theory.
- Nor have I exhaustedly studied one or both sides of the argument.
- I also don't believe the (conspiracy) theories on chemtrails are provable.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 18, 2015 18:17:34 GMT -5
Ah.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 4:00:08 GMT -5
I actually have a friend, here in Italy, that believes in the Chemtrails. He has stated that it is the only thing that makes sense on why the world is the way it is and why so many counties are going to war with each other. He believes that Obama and the New World Order are behind it. They want the entire world in conflict, that way they can swoop in and create a world government. As most of you know, last year in the US, it was the coldest year in like 30 years. Most of the Great Lakes froze over. My friend also believes that Obama and the New World Order are behind this. He believes that they have the capability to control the Earth's temperature. He knows I am from Michigan and keeps telling me that such low temperatures are NOT normal. I told him that to an Italian they are NOT normal, but for a Michigander, they are normal. He also believes that 9/11 was a hoax, and now that the Paris attacks are also a hoax.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 4:24:52 GMT -5
The guy who gave me the chemtrail links was just telling me about all the 9/11 references in the Back to the Future movies. Yes the ones made in the late eighties. Apparently the Illuminati has been planning the 9/11 attacks since at least 1985, and putting hints about it in major motion pictures. This doesn't strike him as outlandish at all. I think we have the same friend. My friend believes the same thing. He also moved to Arizona to be near Area 51 because he believes his soul is an alien.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 4:34:42 GMT -5
I know it exists, but he believes that his mother ship visits there often.
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 4:44:54 GMT -5
I know it exists, but he believes that his mother ship visits there often. Okie dokie. You should ask him to hook you up with a ride along to Mars or something. Could be awesome. I have asked him for some of the drugs he is obviously smoking. I can't remember the name of the cult he joined out there...I want to say it was "Light Seekers" or something like that. I am not sure who is the craziest, my Italian friend, my "Alien" friend, or me for remaining friends with them. I just get great entertainment from the friendships.
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 19, 2015 10:01:51 GMT -5
Okie dokie. You should ask him to hook you up with a ride along to Mars or something. Could be awesome. I have asked him for some of the drugs he is obviously smoking. I can't remember the name of the cult he joined out there... I want to say it was "Light Seekers" or something like that. I am not sure who is the craziest, my Italian friend, my "Alien" friend, or me for remaining friends with them. I just get great entertainment from the friendships. Ask your friend to empty his pockets. If he has a five-dollar bill and three quarters in his pocket(s), that is his interplanetary toll money as required for Heaven's Gate cult members. Ride Hale-Bopp!
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 11:01:21 GMT -5
I have a few regular customers that are chemtrail believers. One of them gave me a list of links to check out on the subject. No I never did. My personal theory is that most of the pictures you see on the internet of the obvious cross hatching are the deliberate spraying of chemicals, but not in the way the conspiracy theorists think. For example, when we lived in Santa Cruz they sprayed for apple moths, or something like that. There was a notice in the paper that they were doing this. They used fairly low flying crop duster planes to do this, and flew in a grid pattern. They were releasing a pheremone compound not a pesticide. If you took some pictures during the spraying then uploaded them to a conspiracy site and said it happened with no notice it would look suspicious. Moreover, I've worked for the government on classified programs. Anything on the scale of a nationwide atmospheric seeding program wouldn't stay secret for long. Too many people and too much equipment involved to keep it a secret. Somebody would blow the lid off the program within a matter of months, at the most, and the chemtrail thing has been around for years. Suppose it wasn't the government doing it directly, but instead a para-governmental organization being privately bankrolled. The extent of the government's involvement would be limited to making sure the activity wasn't obstructed. Would that be more plausible in your view?
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 12:36:06 GMT -5
Many of them believe that the para-government organization has infiltrated the government so successfully, that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins. According to my friend, they are working on taking over every organization in order to be able to quickly put down any resistance to the New World Order.
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Post by billisonboard on Jan 19, 2015 13:17:46 GMT -5
Many of them believe that the para-government organization has infiltrated the government so successfully, that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins. According to my friend, they are working on taking over every organization in order to be able to quickly put down any resistance to the New World Order. I just wish they would hurry up and create this New World Order. I am so curious as to how it is going to change my life. Come on folks, I ain't getting any younger.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 13:29:28 GMT -5
Many of them believe that the para-government organization has infiltrated the government so successfully, that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins. According to my friend, they are working on taking over every organization in order to be able to quickly put down any resistance to the New World Order. My understanding of the theory is that the modus operandi is more about compartmentalizing than about infiltrating. The working capital on major projects is split into distinct groups with limited awareness of the project scope. The groups know enough to complete their individual projects, but aren't aware of the "big picture" below certain levels of involvement. Masonic organizations supposedly use the same stratified structure, with the vast majority of members holding too low a level to be privy to the "master work" their contributions support. In the case of chemtrails, the compartmentalization would be a necessary means of ensuring complicity of the workforce. For example, all but a handful of high-level individuals at the aircraft manufacturer would be deceived or indoctrinated into the belief that their aircraft was being used for military drills, commercial use, etc., or may not be told at all what the ultimate purpose of the craft is/was. Manufacturers of the chemical compounds (silicates, etc.) would be deceived into believing their shipments were being used as industrial lubricants. Perhaps most of their shipments would be, with the exception of a few units stripped off somewhere between supplier and destination. The point is that a vast majority of the apparatus could operate reasonably well without any awareness whatsoever of the "master work". Only a single project team at the point of final assembly and deployment would have access to the complete picture, and it would be this group most heavily monitored (and suppressed, in the event of defection) by the project architects. Infiltration would also be useful, especially in the event that the right hand (the manufacturer behind one part of the project) started talking to the left (another manufacturer) and began putting two and two together. But ultimately the tools of secrecy would be compartmentalization, suppression (e.g. firing, discrediting, threats, force, etc.), and heavy stratification of knowledge. If you went to talk to Joe Floor Manager or Jane Engineer at any of the factories, plants, firms, etc. involved in the greater project, they would tell you quite honestly that nothing was amiss.
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Post by The Captain on Jan 19, 2015 13:43:31 GMT -5
One of the prevailing conspiracy theories of our era is that of "chemtrails"--the notion that governments (or their affiliates) are lacing the atmosphere with chemical agents. ...What I am looking for is a respectful discussion of the topic of chemtrails (as they pertain to geoengineering) in the Socratic style. This means participants must be willing to explain and elaborate on their observations, ask relevant questions, treat the subject matter as serious enough to warrant debate, and generally exhibit an inordinate degree of open-mindedness toward dissenting positions. Socratic discussions are inquisitive rather than expositive in nature. If you aren't capable of complying with these guidelines, do not join the discussion. This is not a thread for useless rhetoric about "sheeple", "tin foil", or posters bringing in contentions without a good faith willingness to defend them. I reserve the right to exile any offending posts to a special "I cannot follow the rules." thread I will create for the purpose. Having said this, the kinds of things I'm looking for are: •Has anyone here seen strange contrails matching the description given above (hash-shaped, low-altitude, "different" from regular contrails)? Yes.•Does anyone here subscribe to a chemtrail theory? Endorse one? If so, which one? No. I don't think a government that isn't capable of producing a balanced budget can pull something like this off without some word getting out.•Does anyone here have any specific knowledge about chemtrails? Have you exhaustively studied one or both sides of the argument? I'm a beancounter, not a scientist.•Are there any sites you know of where the issue of chemtrails has been objectively debated, with a meaningful defense of both sides? Are there derision- and sarcasm-free online resources you would recommend in looking into the issue? To the best of my knowledge this thread is the first.
•Have you ever observed anything unusual that piqued your interest in chemtrails? I was curious enough about some of the patterns to mention them to DH. He did some googling and provided me with what sounded like a rational explanation about wind currents, distance perception, etc.
•Do you believe the theories regarding chemtrails are provable? What standard of proof would be needed to confirm the existence of geoengineering in your mind? Geoengineering hmm? See my socratic question below...Personally, I find it difficult to believe a government that is not capable of producing a balanced budget can pull off a project of the magnitude in this day and age without some word getting out. Finally, given that our ability to predict the weather is questionable at best, I find it very difficult to believe that we have the means to even begin to attempt to influence such on a global basis. Virgil - how would you reconcile the prior statement? Your turn .
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imanangel
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Post by imanangel on Jan 19, 2015 14:29:39 GMT -5
Many of them believe that the para-government organization has infiltrated the government so successfully, that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins. According to my friend, they are working on taking over every organization in order to be able to quickly put down any resistance to the New World Order. My understanding of the theory is that the modus operandi is more about compartmentalizing than about infiltrating. The working capital on major projects is split into distinct groups with limited awareness of the project scope. The groups know enough to complete their individual projects, but aren't aware of the "big picture" below certain levels of involvement. Masonic organizations supposedly use the same stratified structure, with the vast majority of members holding too low a level to be privy to the "master work" their contributions support. In the case of chemtrails, the compartmentalization would be a necessary means of ensuring complicity of the workforce. For example, all but a handful of high-level individuals at the aircraft manufacturer would be deceived or indoctrinated into the belief that their aircraft was being used for military drills, commercial use, etc., or may not be told at all what the ultimate purpose of the craft is/was. Manufacturers of the chemical compounds (silicates, etc.) would be deceived into believing their shipments were being used as industrial lubricants. Perhaps most of their shipments would be, with the exception of a few units stripped off somewhere between supplier and destination. The point is that a vast majority of the apparatus could operate reasonably well without any awareness whatsoever of the "master work". Only a single project team at the point of final assembly and deployment would have access to the complete picture, and it would be this group most heavily monitored (and suppressed, in the event of defection) by the project architects. Infiltration would also be useful, especially in the event that the right hand (the manufacturer behind one part of the project) started talking to the left (another manufacturer) and began putting two and two together. But ultimately the tools of secrecy would be compartmentalization, suppression (e.g. firing, discrediting, threats, force, etc.), and heavy stratification of knowledge. If you went to talk to Joe Floor Manager or Jane Engineer at any of the factories, plants, firms, etc. involved in the greater project, they would tell you quite honestly that nothing was amiss. The way you explained it makes much more sense (as crazy as it is) than how I originally understood his explanation.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 16:31:11 GMT -5
More plausible... maybe. Plausible enough that I think it's happening? No. Unequivocally. What planes would they use to do this? Military planes? Commercial aircraft? A fleet of private planes specially designed to do this? Most CTC sites have modified commercial aircraft doing the dumps. There are no passengers on board, and the pilot/crew are fully aware of what they're doing. You can't release chemicals from a plane without building chemical holding tanks and release mechanisms into the planes themselves. You'd need to refill the holding tanks between each flight. You'd need really large holding tanks of the chemical compound at the airports these planes refill at. Many CTC sites have photos they claim show the distribution system. Specifically, photos of planes with large tanks arrayed in the interior. Skeptics claim these are in fact ballast tanks that contain water, which can be pumped from tank to tank to simulate different weight distributions throughout the plane.
Many sites also provide photographs of what they claim are chemical holding tanks at airfields, along with explanations of why they believe the tanks are special/nonstandard. Skeptics claim the tanks' contents are realistically unknowable, and that they're most likely just fuel tanks, antifreeze tanks, etc.
So every maintenance worker, refilling guy, and aircraft manufacturer would have to be in on it. Or at least know that there was something different about the planes in question. You would need a special private workforce to maintain and fuel the planes, and at the final stages of aircraft assembly, yes.If the conspiracy was happening on the scale claimed by believers we're talking about hundreds of planes every single day. Claims about the scale of the operation are all over the map. But "hundreds of planes" seems like a good median estimate.That takes thousands of people supporting the operation, all of whom are either in on it and staying quiet, or at least aren't publicly questioning the oddity of refueling a plane while also adding something that isn't jet fuel into a mystery compartment on the plane with no explanation of why they're doing so, or what the mystery compound is. Almost true. You would need a force of several thousand plus measures to ensure "leaks" were rare. One would expect (and have to be able to deal with) a certain percentage of loose-lipped workers, and a certain percentage of defectors. Having said this, there are precedents on this scale and greater. At its apex, the Manhattan Project was consuming nearly a quarter of all electricity generated in the United States, employing tens of thousands of workers, and the average citizen at the time knew absolutely nothing about it, for example. I've read that China had several several top-secret military projects so tightly controlled that they were unassailable despite workforces of hundreds of thousands. Now, let's talk about air traffic controllers. They'd have to be in on it too, or they'd see all these flights on their screens flying grid patterns over US soil and be told to ignore them. Again with none of them publicly questioning this. The military's air warning center, which I used to support, would see all these flights and also keep quiet about it, not scramble intercept fighters, not publicly question, etc. Way too many people would have to be told, or at least would have to be told to ignore it with no explanation of why. CTC sites assert that a combination of controllers being fed plausible explanations, inside men specially appointed, suppression (discreditation, firing, threats, etc.), apathy, unwillingness to rock the boat, or plain wanton ignorance account for 95% of the manpower required. They publish putative testimonials of the remaining 5%. Many sites also publish testimonials they claim are by air traffic controllers and various other support workers under conditions of anonymity.
Skeptics point out that anonymous testimony can't be verified. For the testimony given by named individuals, they point out that it could just as likely be the fabrications of disgruntled ex-employees or liars looking for notoriety. No way they'd all blindly follow that order. They don't have to. All they have to do is not rock the boat. That could mean not perceiving the issues, ignoring them, rationalizing them, not caring enough to speak out about them, not daring to speak out about them, or being persuaded by any means to simply do their jobs and honour certain privacy/secrecy clauses.
Between all of the above, it's quite possible 95% of your workforce wouldn't rock the boat. Mankind's propensity for following orders, not rocking the boat, and rationalizing away uncomfortable situations is legendary. The remaining 5% you "deal with". Whether that's the reality, I don't know. But this is obviously a discussion about possibilities rather than probabilities. The only semi plausible way to do it would be to secretly build the chemical release mechanism into commercial aircraft, but since the pilot wouldn't know about it he wouldn't fly in a weird grid pattern. He'd fly from point A to point B and land. Even under this scenario, you need somebody at all commercial airports refilling the chemical containers, with nobody else at the airport questioning what the hell he was doing, what was in the mystery tank he refilled his refueling truck from, etc, along with aircraft manufacturers building the holding tanks and release mechanism into the planes in the first place. We're back to a crap ton of people involved in the conspiracy, and the spray patterns could only follow major flight paths, so why bother? Oh, plus the people trucking the chemicals into the airport to refill the refilling tank, plus the factory producing the chemicals, and on, and on. It would have to be streamlined and compartmentalized. Suffice it to say most CTC sites acknowledge the pilot would have to be "in on it", and the crew fueling, restocking, and maintaining the planes would at the very least have to be part of the "don't rock the boat" cohort. I could see other logistics such as manufacturing and shipping of the chemicals, constructing the aircraft, constructing the tanks, etc. being sufficiently compartmentalized such that only a select handful these workers would have to be "in on it" (see my response to imanangel).
I realize this is piling considerable improbabilities on top of one another, but the whole CTC mantra (and the conspiracy mantra in general) is that the conspiracy thrives because nobody believes an operation with such sophistication can exist, and that this is an unproven assumption. In essence they're claiming TPTB exploit our collective ignorance of human behaviour in uncomfortable circumstances, our strong aversion to complexity, and our strong willingness to rationalize in the presence of uncertainty.
Answers inline. Thanks for the thoughtful evaluation.
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Bob Ross
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Post by Bob Ross on Jan 19, 2015 16:51:44 GMT -5
Many of them believe that the para-government organization has infiltrated the government so successfully, that you really can't tell where one ends and the other begins. According to my friend, they are working on taking over every organization in order to be able to quickly put down any resistance to the New World Order. Would the head of such an organization not have spent six years in Evil Medical School to be called "mister"?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 16:59:28 GMT -5
One of the prevailing conspiracy theories of our era is that of "chemtrails"--the notion that governments (or their affiliates) are lacing the atmosphere with chemical agents. ...What I am looking for is a respectful discussion of the topic of chemtrails (as they pertain to geoengineering) in the Socratic style. This means participants must be willing to explain and elaborate on their observations, ask relevant questions, treat the subject matter as serious enough to warrant debate, and generally exhibit an inordinate degree of open-mindedness toward dissenting positions. Socratic discussions are inquisitive rather than expositive in nature. If you aren't capable of complying with these guidelines, do not join the discussion. This is not a thread for useless rhetoric about "sheeple", "tin foil", or posters bringing in contentions without a good faith willingness to defend them. I reserve the right to exile any offending posts to a special "I cannot follow the rules." thread I will create for the purpose. Having said this, the kinds of things I'm looking for are: •Has anyone here seen strange contrails matching the description given above (hash-shaped, low-altitude, "different" from regular contrails)? Yes.•Does anyone here subscribe to a chemtrail theory? Endorse one? If so, which one? No. I don't think a government that isn't capable of producing a balanced budget can pull something like this off without some word getting out.•Does anyone here have any specific knowledge about chemtrails? Have you exhaustively studied one or both sides of the argument? I'm a beancounter, not a scientist.•Are there any sites you know of where the issue of chemtrails has been objectively debated, with a meaningful defense of both sides? Are there derision- and sarcasm-free online resources you would recommend in looking into the issue? To the best of my knowledge this thread is the first.
•Have you ever observed anything unusual that piqued your interest in chemtrails? I was curious enough about some of the patterns to mention them to DH. He did some googling and provided me with what sounded like a rational explanation about wind currents, distance perception, etc.
•Do you believe the theories regarding chemtrails are provable? What standard of proof would be needed to confirm the existence of geoengineering in your mind? Geoengineering hmm? See my socratic question below...Personally, I find it difficult to believe a government that is not capable of producing a balanced budget can pull off a project of the magnitude in this day and age without some word getting out. Finally, given that our ability to predict the weather is questionable at best, I find it very difficult to believe that we have the means to even begin to attempt to influence such on a global basis. Virgil - how would you reconcile the prior statement? Your turn . I don't have any solid answers, Captain. I know mankind is able to predictably influence the weather on scales as large as several kilometers. You'd have to ask a geoengineer on how well the techniques would scale over time and degree. Mainstream proposals for atmospheric climate modification do exist, still largely theoretical. The conspiracy theorists are claiming these proposals have already been implemented. As for climate scientists mispredicting the climate, I agree with you. The modelers have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt they don't have the faintest clue what they're doing. The sum of their argument is that that any conceivable change in Earth's climate is due to carbon dioxide. They can't predict how climate will change to save their lives, but they'll stake your life on their thesis that carbon dioxide is the cause. The geoengineering-flavoured CTC sites I visited have myriad theories on how weather modification (or climate modification) could hypothetically be used: as a weapon, as a pretext for global regulation and governance, as a pretext for centralization of resources, or as a crude attempt to cool the Earth.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 17:13:54 GMT -5
Commercial pilots being in on it makes no sense whatsoever. First, if they're using secretly modified commercial aircraft it's far easier to design the release system to be entirely automated. Have it release based on an altimeter, that way the pilot can't forget, fall asleep, or what have you. Secondly, it helps keep secrecy since commercial pilots don't have assigned aircraft. If they're in on it they ALL have to be in on it, and that's thousands of people just for one aspect, which is the easiest aspect to automate. From a critical thinking perspective having the pilots be in on it is the least plausible part of the whole thing. Maybe. Either way presents unique logistical problems. I suppose that's why we're having this discussion. I have a relative who's a firm believer in chemtrails. He's a brilliant guy. Has his MD, MBA, other medical and business credentials I can't even enumerate. He's served as a physician to US governors and senators. Consummate reader and researcher. I've had some chemtrail debates with him. I've been on your side of the argument. I realize how frustrating "Yes, but isn't it possible that..." can get, because man when you head down that conspiracy rabbit hole, you head down that rabbit hole. It made me realize that it isn't just indiscriminate half-wits and people with no research ability that subscribe to these theories (they just happen to be the most vocal about publicizing their views). Part of why I started this discussion is to better inform myself. That way I can engage him in a discussion above the level of "chemtrail newbie" when we see each other next. ETA: Incidentally, although the prevailing theory is that modified commercial aircraft is being used, I imagine the pilots themselves wouldn't be commercial aircraft pilots. There'd be crews appointed to specific planes, with one crew per plane. Or possibly a rotating set of crews on a rotating set of planes. In any case, there wouldn't be any passenger transport, nor even the pretense of it.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jan 19, 2015 17:53:13 GMT -5
There is no limit to the lengths some people will go to avoid thinking for themselves and no limit to the nonsense they will believe to avoid facing the world as it is.
Because, you know, the alternative might involve actually doing something constructive.
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 17:59:31 GMT -5
There are only so many runways capable of handling large commercial aircraft. A fleet of planes that didn't belong to a US airline, or national package delivery service would stick out like a sore thumb at those airports, since that's pretty much the only traffic they have. If you use commercial aircraft with only a small (relatively, remember we're still talking hundreds of flights per day) number of crews that fly them and release the chemical agent, how do you make sure the airline puts the plane where you need it, and keep them from scheduling some other crew to fly it? You can't use Southwest, for example, markings on the plane but not have them control the plane because that will draw attention from the thousands of Southwest employees at the airports big enough to handle these type of aircraft. I'm not sure, and I don't presently have time to go conspiracy spelunking to find out if the theorists address any of these logistical issues. My only (uneducated) suggestion is that activity would be scheduled to be as diffuse as possible. Hundreds of aircraft operating daily, but spread out over as many airfields/airports as possible to limit exposure to a handful of routine exceptions per airport. The same principle would apply for air traffic controllers. Between all the controllers in all the airports, each controller might have to accommodate one or two "unusual" flights a week, which would quickly just become part of the baseline "whatever; don't need to know; don't care" routine exceptions for the job. It is an interesting question, though. If larger commercial jets hypothetically are being used for this kind of thing, what would their markings be?
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Virgil Showlion
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Post by Virgil Showlion on Jan 19, 2015 18:12:12 GMT -5
There is no limit to the lengths some people will go to avoid thinking for themselves and no limit to the nonsense they will believe to avoid facing the world as it is.
Because, you know, the alternative might involve actually doing something constructive. Using the example of my relative (see the previous page), conspiracy theories most certainly can be adopted by individuals with great intellect, research ability, and total independence in thinking. Is this particular conspiracy a delusion? Probably. Is your statement accurate for all conspiracy proponents? Absolutely not. It doesn't even work well as a rough generalization. If we blindly accept the skeptics' skepticism on their say-so, we've also avoided thinking for ourselves and potentially avoided facing the world as it is. The only difference is our blindness to our hypocrisy. That's why discussions like this are important.
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jan 19, 2015 18:14:46 GMT -5
Why must you take all the fun out of everything?
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dannylion
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Post by dannylion on Jan 19, 2015 18:14:58 GMT -5
Sorry, double post.
And anyway, nobody likes Socratic discussions.
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Tennesseer
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Post by Tennesseer on Jan 19, 2015 18:20:43 GMT -5
FedEx most likely. If I'm not mistaken they still have the single largest fleet of aircraft in the US, and they fly everywhere. Would also draw no attention when they land at a commercial airport but never pull into an arrival/departure terminal. They fly over my home as they land and take off each day and night seven days a week. I'm still standing.
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